KK vs. decent LAG - NL $50 6m

[AZplaya]

Villian is a decent lag, 32/21 over about 360 hands. Him having pozz on me is teh suck, but I'm here for the two 75/5's sitting to my right. He calls alot in position and then plays super aggro post.

Villian: $47
Hero - covers

Hero is dealt black kings

UTG calls $.50, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.25 </font> , Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds

Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Pot: $5.25

<font color="red"> Hero bets $4.50, Button raises to $11, </font> Hero calls $11

Turn: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Pot: $26

<font color="red"> Hero bets $19 </font> intending to call a shove

Thoughts on this line against this type of player?

[Hail Eris]

I like it a lot. You can also 3bet-shove the flop if you think he can raise one pair here.

[agnoke10]

it looks good to me, also consider getting it in on the flop to maybe eliminate some of the draws, and to MAYBE get a call from a AJ type hand

[Hail Eris]

Yeah, a decent LAG is snapcalling a 3bet shove on this flop with AJ if he's been playing back at you a lot.

[Perk76]

So what do you do if the turn is the 6hearts?

I like it as played also.

[orange]

this is okay, as is c/r ai. (i probably prefer the latter).

[cjp010]

He raised the flop and you only call, so i'd make sure he puts his money in and make it a CRAI not give him the chance to escape losing any more money on a bluff or weak hand. Also... TJ has you obliterated so make sure you know hes just donking at you with top pair here.

[SkeetyMcdoogle]

I like leading turn a lot more than c/r ai as a lot of villains will raise cbets with these big combo draws.

[AZplaya]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you do if the turn is the 6hearts?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is one thing I don't like about this line - if the turn is a doom card like a heart or maybe an ace, be either have to check fold or bet/call, and being OOP will suck. I just hate shoving the flop when a big chunk of the time I'm just getting called by a set or 13+ outs.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
I just hate shoving the flop when a big chunk of the time I'm just getting called by a set or 13+ outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
against this guy - it doesn't seem like he can fold something like AJ, no?

[insyder19]

shove the flop, as played. shove the turn

[TheRenaissance]

OP,

I like your line - crai turn is probably better though, like Orange said.

To those who think villain will call a flop push with "something like" AJ, can you please name any other worse hands a decent player might call with here? Cos I have trouble thinking of any.

[DaN_05]

I like it, also. However if I was confident he'd fire again on the turn I'd prefer to CRAI. Just depends how aggro he is, i.e. would he check behind with a draw or bet it out.

[Hail Eris]

[ QUOTE ]
OP,

I like your line - crai turn is probably better though, like Orange said.

To those who think villain will call a flop push with "something like" AJ, can you please name any other worse hands a decent player might call with here? Cos I have trouble thinking of any.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously this depends on hero image as well, but any made hand that didn't raise on a bluff is likely to call. He should be looking hero up pretty light here if he's been playing back a lot in position, since it's not unreasonable for hero to be b/3b shoving a lot of draws on this flop, and not just draws that are flipping with his pair.

Maybe it's just me, but whenever I find myself in this spot with something like KQ and b/3b this flop against a "decent LAG" who's been fighting me in every pot, he snapcalls with AT.

[pofigistka]

I thought CRAI was more standard here.

[BevillTheDevil]

id 3bet the flop lookin to get AI. Only hands that id give really any credit to that beat us are JT/44. But i raise for value against TP hands and charge draws. Sure villian might fold a draw if we raise but the line we take risk/lets him hit his draw cheaply and when the turn blanks we fire then he def is more likely to fold a draw compared to the flop (obv cause he has 2 more cards to hit his draw)...if you think he is super aggro post and will bet the turn most the time then id rather CRAI than the line you took. Personally id just get it AI on the flop.

[BevillTheDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
To those who think villain will call a flop push with "something like" AJ, can you please name any other worse hands a decent player might call with here? Cos I have trouble thinking of any.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this depends A LOT on our image as well...if we have been passive i think its a lot less likely but if we have been runnin aggro then i think a "decent" villian def will get AI w/ TPTK.

[AshleyC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just hate shoving the flop when a big chunk of the time I'm just getting called by a set or 13+ outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
against this guy - it doesn't seem like he can fold something like AJ, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs aren't all donks.

[AZplaya]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's just me, but whenever I find myself in this spot with something like KQ and b/3b this flop against a "decent LAG" who's been fighting me in every pot, he snapcalls with AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy single tables and plays alot. He's good enough to know that unless I'm tilting, A10 is never ahead of a flop shove from me on this board. The absolute worst made hand he calls with is AJ.

Also, for those of you saying c/r ai, I'm worried that Villian should know I'm c/ring this turn a pretty good percentage of the time and will check behind with alot of his strong draws. Do most of you guys bet this turn w Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif or the NFD after raising in pozz on the flop?

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's just me, but whenever I find myself in this spot with something like KQ and b/3b this flop against a "decent LAG" who's been fighting me in every pot, he snapcalls with AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy single tables and plays alot. He's good enough to know that unless I'm tilting, A10 is never ahead of a flop shove from me on this board. The absolute worst made hand he calls with is AJ.

Also, for those of you saying c/r ai, I'm worried that Villian should know I'm c/ring this turn a pretty good percentage of the time and will check behind with alot of his strong draws. Do most of you guys bet this turn w Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif or the NFD after raising in pozz on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly would check behind turn with my draws. But wont this guy raise the flop with more than sets and big draws? Wont you check the turn if you want to exercise pot control as well? If he smells weakness, and his hand isnt all that good, surely he could be tempted to take another stab? Many players like to double barrel with their big draws...

[Craggoo]

If hes a decent lag like you say then i think his range includes a lot of 1 pair + fd type of hands which we are still flipping against unless im mistaken. Also, if you see him as a competent player i dont think hes felting AJ so a re-raise on the flop is a must to find out where we stand. If hes a true LAG then i would think AJ would be in his 3 betting range no? Based on this, im more inclined to believe what i said in the beginning, that his range either has us crushed (primarily 44 and JT) or we're still flipping with him(QhJh, Kh,Qh, 9h8h, and any other combo draw you can think of). Conclusion: i push the hand hard and type in chat "time to gambol".

[kaz2107]

i like a lead a bit better too. saying that he is a good lag implies he is VERY capable of rasing flop with a good to even GREAT draw and then good enough to check behind on the turn. which is terrible for us obv. so i play it this way more often then not. altho i will crai on occasion too

[yntm3]

I am aiming to get it in on this flop and not mess around. Turn cards can either kill our action or complete his draw which is both bad news for us, so if we are happy to commit on the flop your aim should be to get all-in. I raise to around 28 total on flop.

[orange]

also to add, i think shoving this flop is definitely an option and probably my preferred.

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
...if you see him as a competent player i dont think hes felting AJ so a re-raise on the flop is a must to find out where we stand

[/ QUOTE ]

So you will put in most of your stack on this flop... and then fold if he pushes?
Or just go all in and find out "where we stand" that way?

I dont mean to pick on you in particular, because I see a lot of posters talking about finding out "where they stand" in a hand - and that [censored] has to stop. It really should be a sticky all on its own.

Trying to find out "where you stand" in a hand by betting and raising is almost always a bad idea. It is the wrong way to think about playing a hand. What you should be thinking about is how to maximize your EV against villains perceived range.

In this particular hand we could do that in several ways - by 3betting all in on the flop, by calling his raise and cr turn, or we could play it like OP. Or something else. Which of these is best is not my point here.

The point is: if we for instance decide that we think playing it like op did is best, it is because we think villain will call us with many hands that we beat and/or that it is the best way to prevent us being exploited. NOT because we want to know if we have the best hand or not. In a way, we dont care what his hand is. It doesnt matter.

All we want is to maximize our earn against villain's RANGE. His specific HAND is irrelevant. This is a simple truth, but it took me ages to realize this, and I still struggle with it when I am playing. But away from the table I know.

[orange]

nice post ren.

also, i think that once villan raises this flop with AJ and the like, he's not folding. LAGs dont raise/fold TPTK.

[Craggoo]

Ren - By only calling on the flop we potentially put ourself in a very difficult turn spot. Whats the purpose in getting tricky with this hand? By only calling on the flop, we potentially give our opponent 2 free cards to catch up if he decides to check behind on the turn (assuming OP had taken the line where he crai on the turn). In this case, the line OP has taken screams "i have a big hand that im willing to felt regardless of what pops up on the river".

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
Ren - By only calling on the flop we potentially put ourself in a very difficult turn spot. Whats the purpose in getting tricky with this hand? By only calling on the flop, we potentially give our opponent 2 free cards to catch up if he decides to check behind on the turn (assuming OP had taken the line where he crai on the turn). In this case, the line OP has taken screams "i have a big hand that im willing to felt regardless of what pops up on the river".

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read my post again you should see that I dont really argue for or against any specific line, but more how we should think when in a hand in general.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
also to add, i think shoving this flop is definitely an option and probably my preferred.

[/ QUOTE ]why dont u think calling and gettin it in on a blank turn is better here??? OP said he thinks villian is calling a shove with no worse then AJ so i cant really think shoving is great.

it really seems like our overall equity in the hand is better to get it on the turn if the turn blanks then to shove on the flop where i think we r prolly like 35% against his calling range on the flop (yea i kno there is a lot of dead money in the pot) but that money is still there on the turn and i think our equity against his range skyrockets on like 70% of turns. and on the other 30% we can c/f or w/e and save ourself money.

[orange]

kaz,
yeah, getting it in on the turn is fine. but with the current action and stacks, how do you plan on doing so? is bet/calling on the turn the best way? or do we check at the risk of having our opponent check behind with his draw?

i typically agree with the getting it on the turn statement, it's just very difficult to do so OOP. and you leave yourself in sticky spots when the turn bricks and you lead/he shoves. but still, i'm not so sure i'm getting away even on a /images/graemlins/heart.gif turn or what not. limiting his range to a pure flush is laughable.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
kaz,
yeah, getting it in on the turn is fine. but with the current action and stacks, how do you plan on doing so? is bet/calling on the turn the best way? or do we check at the risk of having our opponent check behind with his draw?

i typically agree with the getting it on the turn statement, it's just very difficult to do so OOP. and you leave yourself in sticky spots when the turn bricks and you lead/he shoves. but still, i'm not so sure i'm getting away even on a /images/graemlins/heart.gif turn or what not. limiting his range to a pure flush is laughable.

[/ QUOTE ]just to clarify...

so considering we r oop and the board is kinda scary here u think pushing the flop is more +EV due to it being a tough spot on the turn for the most part?

and then also when u say [ QUOTE ]
it's just very difficult to do so OOP. and you leave yourself in sticky spots when the turn bricks and you lead/he shoves.

[/ QUOTE ] r u saying that if we call and the turn blanks and we bet and he shoves over our turn bet it is sticky or that it is sticky whether to bet or to crai??

thanks for tha help. appreciate the thoughts on this so far

[orange]

both decisions on the turn (to either b/c or c/r ai) have their advantages and disadvantages. (and that can be said for all decisions in this hand). if we check, we are at risk of him checking behind (which can't be TOO horrible) ont he turn. if we bet and he shoves over us, we pretty much have to call but are we really good?

furthermore, if we just flat call the flop (with the intention of b/c-ing or c/r-ing ai on the turn), what is your plan on: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif/2/images/graemlins/heart.gif(or any heart for that matter?) are you c/f-ing? still c/r-ing? eh?

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
both decisions on the turn (to either b/c or c/r ai) have their advantages and disadvantages. (and that can be said for all decisions in this hand). if we check, we are at risk of him checking behind (which can't be TOO horrible) ont he turn. if we bet and he shoves over us, we pretty much have to call but are we really good?

furthermore, if we just flat call the flop (with the intention of b/c-ing or c/r-ing ai on the turn), what is your plan on: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif/2/images/graemlins/heart.gif(or any heart for that matter?) are you c/f-ing? still c/r-ing? eh?

[/ QUOTE ]my thinking was to c/f if a bad card hit. so like 25% of the time or w/e i c.f the turn and the other 75% of the time i get it all in. u like that idea better then just shoving the flop or still shove flop better???

[orange]

both are okay. i just dont like the thought of having my action killed just because of the fd (when his range can be so much wider than that). i'm probably not folding even if the /images/graemlins/heart.gif does hit.

[AZplaya]

So I think this thread ran its course:

results - he shoved, I snap called and he flipped QJhh, river 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, ship it.