AA gets checkraised by Tight villain

villain is 18/15/2.9 over 600 hands. I`m 18/13/2.6. I have played with him before and my read is that he only checkraises with sets or big draws.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($63.10)
Button ($44.65)
SB ($50.25)
BB ($113.20)
UTG ($40.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $1.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($4.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $12</font>

Hero ?

[mookboi]

I dunno bro, I think this guy knows what he's doing. He might have some combo draw here. If he has 4s &amp; another spade, you are behind. If he just has 2 spades &amp; some sort of straight draw, yer basically flipping. Put in the times he has sets and two pairs, and you are behind most times.

I fold against this competent villain.

I came up with this range, given my read on villain. If this is his range its a pretty easy fold.



equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.207% 32.02% 01.19% 6973 259.50 { AcAh }
Hand 1: 66.793% 65.60% 01.19% 14288 259.50 { 66-33, As4s, As3s, 9s8s, 8s7s, 65s }

[mookboi]

Yeah, I plugged in a whole buncha stuff while writing response. Basically any spade + 4spades you are 45/55 against. You are obviously behind any set &amp; two pair. Any two spades you are like 53/47 against. + you didn't even consider that homeboy flopped a straight of some sort. I mean, he looks decent, so I doubt he's calling raise with 74 or 42 from blinds, but ya never know. Easy fold I agree.

Thanks for reply mookboi. I folded, but I actualy was quite surprised how much his range is actualy ahead.

[traz]

I played 13/10/3 at 50nl, and I was cring 33+ all day on these flops. I mean, if your read is that he wouldn't do this with 77, then you gotta go with that. But I'm just sayin.

Given that, if I was Hero I'd probably call and reevaluate since we have position.

I definetly think villain would not checkraise 88-TT here. I included 77 and 7s9s in the range, and it still doesn`t looks to good.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.286% 40.26% 01.02% 11161 283.50 { AcAh }
Hand 1: 58.714% 57.69% 01.02% 15992 283.50 { 77-33, As4s, As3s, 9s7s, 8s7s, 65s }

I don`t think villain would slow down on turn with any of those hands, even if a blank falls and he`s holding a draw.
Not sure about this tho.

[starkwired]

He never check raises on a bluff, knowing you are going to cont bet? I guess I'm thinking about it too much.

[traz]

How would villain play 88-TT. Donkbet all the time?

[Eric Draven]

Wow, I'm a donk. I'd probably almost never fold this while playing... but looking at the math... it does seem to be a relatively easy fold. I really need to play around with Pokerstove more.

[CrAcK_N_CoKe]

I think its an easy fold.Even if it was me , and im pretty aggro.Since your read of his checkraising range is sets 2 pairs big draws ect...just fold it.

[sightless]

I muck this
unless he c/rs often

[ QUOTE ]
How would villain play 88-TT. Donkbet all the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember seing him checkraise before on a drawy board against another player, and the flush got there on 4th street. He bet big again and oponent folded. I`m almost sure he did had a big draw there and checkraised. he doesn`t CRs frequently tho.

TBH I`m not sure regarding him checkraising 88-TT there. Interesting, it`s probably a strong play, I might reevaluate my game and consider doing this on this type of boards oop. It`s really hard to call that CR. If I would be villain, my range is sets/big draws, 2pair.

[Kasane]

I think I call this and pray the turn is a blank and go with it there. Our equity may kinda suck -- with two cards to come. But we all know what happens when the turn blanks on a combo draw and his equity doesn't smack us down with only one card. If he's got the Asxs type hand, his equity is far lower than he thinks.

Why the smallish flop bet? Smells of missed overs...

[cjp010]

He could easily think you missed this flop, and one way to find out is to call him and watch his action on the turn. He could have a middle-pair and think its good here, he could even have a hand like Ax and think the pair was enough and that you were c-betting and hes getting you off of over cards.

[huhwhatyousay?]

Bet $4 on flop for value and to minimize playback. I don't see how a 18/15 has many hands such as A4ss and 98ss in his range cold-calling from the SB. So with the description you gave, I'm pretty sure you're WB the majority of his range and flipping with a negligible portion provided he never c/r hands like 99 here. Fold.

Ok, if I do call flop, I have to decide here what line to take on turn if:
1) villain bets 2/3 pot
2) villain checks


Is this correct ?
1) fold
2) shove (anything less, we are giving him pretty decent odds with a big draw, correct?)

[fxwz]

I can't fold aces here, we are in position and he could have alot of hands that we beat. If you c-bet alot he can even think that you missed your hand and c/r with AT+s, 88+ and such hands, no? Doesn't a villain like this play his flushdraws like he played this hand? Another thing to have in mind is that if he is fairly competent he knows that a flop like this is perfect to (semi)bluff against your range. The only hands we would not like him to have here is 33, 55 and 66. No way this guy calls with a hand like 74s.

I think it's way to weak to just fold this. One argument I buy is that you've not invested alot of money in the hand, don't wan't to play big pots against this specific opponent and therefore just lay it down. But if theres not a) alot of terrible players on the table or b) you make money overall against this guy playing small pots, and c-bet him alot(if he folds easy to c-bets) or whatever, I think you should find another table.

I call and see what happens on the turn. If he checks to me I bet big, if he bets out; THEN i fold.

[jackrich00]

Villain has a pocket pair IMO, With his stats i can't see him calling OOP with AXs. I mean his 3 bet was a little bigger than i would expect so it doesnt seem to me like he has a draw. So with that i would fold. On the other hand you could argue that there are alot of hands he could have like AJs A10s 1010 99 etc. So in conclusion to this i think that a fold is perhaps not allways the right move and you could find a reason to just call, but in the end if he checks the turn when a rag hits your still in one sticky situation.

[RainbowBright]

I think people are leaving out AJs, ATs, A9s,A8s, A7s

[fxwz]

If he checks the turn, why would that put us in a sticky situation? The only hands we are afraid of here is a set IMO. On that board, he would never check a set on the turn unless a really scary card for him hits. Wich obv. is a good thing for us, because then we would have a lot of FE if we bet.
Am I totally off on this one?
I really think it's terrible to just fold this flop, and I refuse to believe that calling is -EV.

[jackrich00]

What card do we want to see on the turn, except the one ace we want to hit, that will make us feel safe? I think a K or a Q only. If a J comes and he has AJs he has picked up another 2 outs and ok maybe he pushes. But anycard bellow a J and then what, if a 10 9 8 7 6 comes does he now have a set? I think his raise on the flop is a good one because you are also playing pretty tight and alot of the time you could have AK or AQ and just be CB and he has every reason to raise with alot of hands. I think the argument to call the flop is strong and i'd maybe do the same to see what happens on the turn but im just wondering how often is the turn going to be a safe card for us?

[fxwz]

Good point jackrich.
I don't really know. I think I look at this situation in a bit screwed up way . I'll do my best to explain..

I believe we can pretty much narrow his holdings in to three categories:
1. Flushdraws. Every non-spade helps us.
2. Set. Every A, spade, 4, and maybe some other cards that would be scarecards for him helps us(or is he not folding a set either way? Depends on villain, I guess.)
3. Bluff/semibluff, all cards are in our favour/doesn't really matter what card hits.
The hard part about this hand IMO is finding out what he actually has, and I think the turn would help us alot to find that out.

When I'm calling this flop, to some extent I'm not concerned about what card hits on the turn. I'm more interested in what he does, us having position and all.

I think I look at it this way; if he has a set he will definately make a bet on the turn, and then we can safely fold. Only exeption is if a super scarecard for his set hits, then he would propably check, right(and we could bet making his decision very hard)? This is somewhat dependent on villain, because if he bets no matter what card hits we're pretty lost and might as well fold the flop.
If he has a flushdraw he will check, and if he is semibluffing/bluffing he will check.
So, if he checks the turn, I'm propably betting no matter what. I can't think of any hands he would have the balls to c/r with(and if he does, then gg nh), and he would have a very hard time calling a bet if he has a hand he is checking the turn with.
If he is very aggro/ballsy he would propably make a great play(IMO) and bet the turn anyhow, thus making us fold. But looking at his stats I don't think villain is that kind of a player.
Now, this might all be a result of how I play(I play way more laggy than OP, and therefore get raised more i suppose) and it might be one of the reasons I have pretty high variance.

I might be overthinking this, but I pretty much know this is how I would play the hand. It might not be the right thing to do at all, I dont consider myself that good a player yet. But I just hate to lay this down on the flop.

Meh, I dont know. I give up /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[traz]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how villain would play this if he had 77-TT.

Also, if you guys donkbet 77-TT here 100% of the time, I think you're leaking value

[Waingro]

I can see a couple of different scenarious where we might be ahead enough to get it in on the flop against a tight, solid opponent:

It all depends on what you think he will call with from the sb.
1. He calls with quite a lot of suited cards to "outplay" you, the NFD is going to love this flop. Also hands like 67, KQs might start to feel frisky on this flop. Basically more hands make draws than made hands on this board and if he is any good he is going to try to make moves with many of them, not just combo draws.

2. His range from the sb is basically 22-TT. He folds 22, but how would he play 44, 77-TT? If you think he has any kind of idea of not turning made hands into a bluff, like he would really hate to get it in with 99 etc on this board, this is a fold. But this is not really standard tagfish behaviour, they raise to find out where they are, inflate the pot in marginal spots etc.

First I was like omg fold, but after thinking a bit more about it I like call flop, shove any non-spade turn. Really, the only opponent I wouldn´t like this spot against is a guy who only calls occasionally with suited cards and who seems to be ok at tayloring the size of the pot to his hand.

[fxwz]

I put 77-TT in my semibluff-category and consider them as a valid option as to what villain is holding. And I think he would give up those hands after the flop c/r, and that we therefore could take the pot away from him on the turn.

[RainbowBright]

If I'm Villain and have 77-TT. I'd probably cc flop. cf turn.

[traz]

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If I'm Villain and have 77-TT. I'd probably cc flop. cf turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible line imo. I fire 2 barrels against players like you on this board all the time with ATC

[Waingro]

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If I'm Villain and have 77-TT. I'd probably cc flop. cf turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible line imo. I fire 2 barrels against players like you on this board all the time with ATC

[/ QUOTE ]
Wait what. Are you telling me you would double-barrel an unknown trying to take him off TT here, or just someone who has publicly stated he would fold TT to a second barrel? If it is the former, all I can say is, Good luck sir.

[traz]

I'm saying I would usually double barrel a blank when this flop is c/c. It's a sign of major weakness.

CCing this flop with an overpair is really bad imo

[Aidoneus]

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If I'm Villain and have 77-TT. I'd probably cc flop. cf turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible line imo. I fire 2 barrels against players like you on this board all the time with ATC

[/ QUOTE ]

ch/c ch/f is fine the first few times, but someone doesn't have a hand everytime and if your a chronic double barreler the reg(if hes good) will adjust to it and start calling you down.

Btw, i need a read to not shove AA here.

[traz]

Even apart from the double barreling problem, 77-TT is likely ahead on the flop, but there are alot of scarecards on the turn.

Maybe i'm in the minority here, dunno, but I maintain pretty strongly that cc sucks here with an overpair, and I think all overpairs are heavily in Villain's range wrt to OP.

I also think hands like 67/78/any2spades are in this guys range.

[Milky]

I definitely think 77-TT is in his range. Think about it. He knows you're going to cbet 99% of the time here, but if he donks into you you're going to fold any hand he beats and raise/call any hand that beats him (with the exception of AKs-ATs and even then it's a coinflip). Better to check, let the hands that he beats bet, and then c/r to either take down the pot or fold to an all-in since he'll be pretty sure he's beat.

[Aidoneus]

[ QUOTE ]
Even apart from the double barreling problem, 77-TT is likely ahead on the flop, but there are alot of scarecards on the turn.

Maybe i'm in the minority here, dunno, but I maintain pretty strongly that cc sucks here with an overpair, and I think all overpairs are heavily in Villain's range wrt to OP.

I also think hands like 67/78/any2spades are in this guys range.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are you playing 77-TT here on the flop? im not saying im right but i usually ch/c and play poker on the turn.

[jackrich00]

Well this has sparked some madness. IMO i think this is one handd i'd like to have been sitting at the table watching this player. I think his previous moves come into play alot more on this board. Lets just push the flop and smile haha
did we find out wat happened in this hand?????

I still feel good about having layed down this hand on the flop. IMO the only 2 ways I would play this hands are to fold on flop or call and shove turn if blank hits. Decision would be kind of what I feel about the villain. As said before, since I have played with him, I really didn`t think at the moment he would play 88-TT like that. I put 77 in the draw category, since it gives villain a gutshot to.

Shoving the flop is terrible IMO, cause I doubt he will call with overpairs, and he would only call with a range that is ahead of me.

The reason I didn`t just like calling the flop and evaluating the turn is that I`m sure this type of player will fire a reasonable bet with any big draw or sets on turn. So I would have to shove if a blank hits and he would call and I wouldn`t really be much wiser.

[skibbel]

No way i'd fold this. i call. I think you see a midpair many times. i don't know why many bad regulars do that.

[ QUOTE ]
No way i'd fold this. i call. I think you see a midpair many times. i don't know why many bad regulars do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for reply. What line do you take after calling flop ?

[wingchunflush]

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If I'm Villain and have 77-TT. I'd probably cc flop. cf turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible line imo. I fire 2 barrels against players like you on this board all the time with ATC

[/ QUOTE ]

ch/c ch/f is fine the first few times, but someone doesn't have a hand everytime and if your a chronic double barreler the reg(if hes good) will adjust to it and start calling you down.

Btw, i need a read to not shove AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has a read that is the whole point of this thread is that this guy only does this with strong hands.

[wingchunflush]

Maybe he is putting you on AK, AQ and letting you Cbet and trying to raise for value with a hand he thinks is good. I will sometimes do that and if I get called on the raise then I proceed cautiously.

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If I'm Villain and have 77-TT. I'd probably cc flop. cf turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible line imo. I fire 2 barrels against players like you on this board all the time with ATC

[/ QUOTE ]

ch/c ch/f is fine the first few times, but someone doesn't have a hand everytime and if your a chronic double barreler the reg(if hes good) will adjust to it and start calling you down.

Btw, i need a read to not shove AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has a read that is the whole point of this thread is that this guy only does this with strong hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

happy birthday !

[wingchunflush]

ty, ship me a buy in LOL JK