folding KK preflop [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

insyder19

09-09-2007, 06:11 PM

Okay, it's getting sick because I lost like 8 KK's vs AA's preflop all in this months already, in basically 20k hands.

So I am really thinking of how to fold KK preflop. What are the usual signs of AA?

Like here it's an easy fold?

Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25/$0.50BB (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

MP2 ($51.40)
MP3 ($49.25)
CO ($41.80)
Button ($49.25) (Hero)
SB ($31.60)
BB ($58.84)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
MP2 raises to 2.0, 1 folds, CO calls $2.00, Hero raises to 8.0, 1 folds, BB raises to 27.0, 2 folds, Hero raises to 49.25, BB calls $21.75,

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ( $102.75 )

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ( $102.75 )

River: 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ( $102.75 )

Final Pot: $99.75

Results:
Hero has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB has A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif
Outcome: BB wins $99.75

Or here?

Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25/$0.50BB (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

BB ($50.00)
MP2 ($49.25)
MP3 ($53.55)
CO ($58.95) (Hero)
Button ($27.95)
SB ($50.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
MP2 calls $0.50, 1 folds, Hero raises to 2.0, 3 folds, MP2 raises to 5.0, Hero raises to 17.0, MP2 raises to 30.0, Hero raises to 58.95, MP2 raises All-In $48.75,

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ( $108.95 )

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ( $108.95 )

River: 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ( $108.95 )

Final Pot: $105.95

Results:
MP2 has A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Outcome: MP2 wins $96.25
Outcome: Hero wins $9.70

-----

Overall, have anyone of you ever folded KK preflop in a cashgame if not deep?

This one was sick too:

Titan No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25/$0.50BB (Titan HH Converter by Kreatief)

MP3 ($73.29)
CO ($27.15)
Button ($64.35)
SB ($49.10)
BB ($87.30) (Hero)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif
MP3 raises to 2.0, 3 folds, Hero raises to 8.0, MP3 calls $6.50,

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ( $17.25 )
Hero bets $12.00, MP3 raises to 24.0, Hero raises to 78.8, MP3 raises All-In $64.79,

Turn: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif ( $160.84 )

River: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ( $160.84 )

Final Pot: $157.84

Results:
MP3 has A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif
Outcome: MP3 wins $143.83
Outcome: Hero wins $14.01

whyzze

09-09-2007, 06:14 PM

hands 1 and 2 are standard

hand 3 I probably would have called his flop raise and got it in on the turn.

hitch1978

09-09-2007, 06:15 PM

In the low limits there is a pretty reliable tell. If someone types 'I have aces' pre-flop in the chatbox, then they do. This tell is 6/6 for me, and is the only time I have ever folded KK pre-flop (He showed his AA).

Apart from that 1 tell I never fold KK pre.

MrWooster

09-09-2007, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I never fold KK pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

sightless

09-09-2007, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never fold KK pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

kaz2107

09-09-2007, 06:24 PM

run better. i promise if u start folding kk preflop u wont start runnin better n e quicker

Jzo19

09-09-2007, 06:25 PM

in b4 lock

ama0330

09-09-2007, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never fold KK pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

insyder19

09-09-2007, 07:03 PM

So, even if someone is reraising my RERAISE you guys would push? I don't think I ever run so often into AA with KK like I did in the past 2 weeks.

ama0330

09-09-2007, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, even if someone is reraising my RERAISE you guys would push? I don't think I ever run so often into AA with KK like I did in the past 2 weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

DONT FOLD KK PRE

mookboi

09-09-2007, 08:01 PM

I don't fold KK PF unless we are more than 3 buy-ins deep.
So basically never.

whyherro

09-09-2007, 08:04 PM

the trick is to start sucking out more.

Waingro

09-09-2007, 09:36 PM

I don´t really fold KK post flop either so I don´t really see what circumstances would compel me to fold KK pf. I guess some combination of massive tilt and major depression IRL.

Sean Fraley

09-09-2007, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, even if someone is reraising my RERAISE you guys would push? I don't think I ever run so often into AA with KK like I did in the past 2 weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the point that we are trying to make. Basically, unless the effective stacks are up around 200BBs, you just shouldn't fold kings in the micros. The exception might be if you have a decent sample size on villain (i.e. ~100 hands) and he only raises about 2% of his hands. Even then, you probably still shouldn't fold.

EDIT: Oh yeah, to answer your question about what the signs are that Villain has aces: If he shows aces at showdown, you can be pretty sure that he has aces.

Numfar

09-10-2007, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I lost like 8 KK's vs AA's preflop all in this months already

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't worry, you are due to win the next two.

And, don't fold KK PF.

Spanky1974

09-10-2007, 01:33 AM

Learn to table select better. Screw folding KK pre-flop threads.

Nick C

09-10-2007, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So, even if someone is reraising my RERAISE you guys would push? I don't think I ever run so often into AA with KK like I did in the past 2 weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear it's different in higher limits, but it does seem that in the micros preflop 4-bets generally come from a very narrow range of hands unless the player in question is short-stacked and/or maniacal. So once I see that 4-bet, I start liking my kings a lot less than I did when I first saw them.

Still, I don't fold . . .

All the same, if kings are still a favorite once that 4-bets comes, I doubt they're a very big one.

djshawk

09-10-2007, 03:49 AM

In hand 2 I'd be inclined to call and flop a set. Limp mini/almost mini reraise is so often aces.

A few days ago I had a 200BB aa V kk which is was sure was aces but still pushed and lost. After was convinced I should have folded but now looking at your hands I'm back on the dont fold kings pre thinking. You're just unlucky with them all coming at once.

LegendLength

09-10-2007, 04:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The exception might be if you have a decent sample size on villain (i.e. ~100 hands) and he only raises about 2% of his hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Craggoo

09-10-2007, 08:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't fold KK PF unless we are more than 3 buy-ins deep.
So basically never.

[/ QUOTE ]
This man hit the nail on the head. For 100 BB, its an auomatic stack off everytime.

resboard

09-10-2007, 08:58 AM

Well i'm not sure about $50, but i can tell you at $25 if you are 4bet and you have KK atleast 80% of the time you will see AA.

cjp010

09-10-2007, 09:37 AM

People online play QQ like AA preflop anyways, i'd say unless super deep and the player is super tight its never appropriate to muck KK PF.

Muflon

09-10-2007, 09:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well i'm not sure about $50, but i can tell you at $25 if you are 4bet and you have KK atleast 80% of the time you will see AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hello 2+2. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I currently play NL25 and find that this is not true. Just yesterday I got into a PF raising war which resulted with all-ins my KK vs. his AKo. Blinds battle as well. Lost to broadway ofc. 2 times before when my KK met pre flop restistance I lost to QQ flopping a set.

But I saw this happening with 99 vs. JJ or AQs vs. AKo and similar. And those were not shortstacks.

My experience tells me people at NL25 will push much worse than KK for 100BB and I am not folding.

starkwired

09-10-2007, 09:59 AM

I have a hard time folding QQ preflop at NL 50 because of the hands I see people go in with. Leak? At the same time, lately I've seen a lot of people flat call a 3 bet with KK/AA and then shove over a flop bet (assuming all unders). Anyone ever get away from QQ or JJ there?

Quester

09-10-2007, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well i'm not sure about $50, but i can tell you at $25 if you are 4bet and you have KK atleast 80% of the time you will see AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately your "statistic" above is based on your individual observations and is not accurate. You also need to remember that the human memory is very selective. You are more likely to remember the instances you lose to AA than the instances you win against another hand. This skews your perceptions.

If you do a thorough game analysis from extensive data mining, you'll probably find that this number is significantly lower.

I would imagine the "correctness" of folding KK preflop can be a function of stack size, but is probably not linear. If you are playing 0.25/0.50 for 100BB, it is not correct to fold KK preflop. Ever. If you are playing 0.25/0.50 for 10,000BB, it is probably correct to fold KK preflop if your opponent moves in. But then again, optimal play in such a game would probably be simply to move in with AA and fold everything else, or to find a game with higher stakes where this is not an issue.

traz

09-10-2007, 11:35 AM

I'm not sure how this thread is still going, but since it is I guess I'll give it a serious reply.

Guys, mathematically, if villain will 4bet/5bet with ANYTHING besides AA and KK, it's correct to shove. You're 50/50 as long as his range includes one other hand. With dead money in the pot, you're way ahead of that.

Believe me, his range always includes a 3rd hand.

Villain will show up with AA alot...yes. But that's not the point. Even if that's the case, we still have enough equity because of all the dead money.

The Mad Potter

09-10-2007, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never fold KK pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

kurto

09-10-2007, 11:45 AM

Just this weekend I got it all in preflop with Kings twice... once it was AK and the other time it was A10.

I of course lost both times... as will you. The point is, it doesn't matter what they have. You're going to lose. Just get it all in then curse at how unlucky you are. Then move on. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Spurious

09-10-2007, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how this thread is still going, but since it is I guess I'll give it a serious reply.

Guys, mathematically, if villain will 4bet/5bet with ANYTHING besides AA and KK, it's correct to shove. You're 50/50 as long as his range includes one other hand. With dead money in the pot, you're way ahead of that.

Believe me, his range always includes a 3rd hand.

Villain will show up with AA alot...yes. But that's not the point. Even if that's the case, we still have enough equity because of all the dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than that, you'll get 4:1 odds on a shove often enough when villain 4/5bets.

netstorm

09-10-2007, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never fold KK pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

kaz2107

09-10-2007, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well i'm not sure about $50, but i can tell you at $25 if you are 4bet and you have KK atleast 80% of the time you will see AA.

[/ QUOTE ]wow. lmao. this is 100% wrong. they could have QQ, KK, AA, AK, and then other random [censored] that some retard is doing. they could have also misclicked or w/e. 80% is soooooo far off. good god. u either have the worst game selection known to man or have played 5k hands and run like ass. wut a joke.

in my last 10k hands i have had KK vs AA once. and i have been 4 bet preflop prolly 15 times. god this is rediculous

mrvegas61

09-10-2007, 12:55 PM

Not that I would ever fold KK preflop but reading this thread earlier this morning gave me more confidence as my pocket Kings were re-raised twice a few minutes ago by not one but two opponents. I forced both villains to go all-in and they turned over QQ and JJ. My Kings took it down for a very nice $92 pot. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

mookboi

09-10-2007, 12:57 PM

How is this thread still alive and the demographics thread lost on page 7?

Don't fold KK PF. That's it.

NL Newbie

09-10-2007, 01:02 PM

I folded KK preflop twice.

Once = timeout.
2nd = 2000hand sample .5% PFR UTG raiser 3betting my reraise.

He showed AA /images/graemlins/smile.gif

LOSING KK TO AA IS THE LAW. FOLDING IS AGAISNT THE LAW.

Chomp

09-10-2007, 01:12 PM

Hand 2 is always Aces: villain puts in the 4th raise.

This is never, ever, ever anything but AA at 50NL (assuming non-maniac villain).

So I might fold that one.

The rest, I go broke in each I think.

Loramov

09-10-2007, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]

2nd = 2000hand sample .5% PFR UTG raiser 3betting my reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will probably flat-call a 3-bet from this vilain with KK and shove flop unless im getting realy bad odds for the call. Folding KK is a no no.