NL10 turned 2nd nut flush facing heavy action

[youngmachetes]

villain is multitabling but is otherwise unknown.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $28.55
BB: $10.90
UTG: $7.45
MP: $7.20
Hero (CO): $10.00
BTN: $8.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.40</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $0.35, BB calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.20) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.20) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">BB bets $0.40</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $2.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $9.60</font>

does this look okay? i made the smallish turn raise to get value from a Q.

[whyzze]

bet flop...all in on turn.

[MrWooster]

bet flop - but otherwise its fine

[youngmachetes]

what is my blank turn plan if called?

[MrWooster]

You are still getting the right odds + implied odds with 2 players if its a blank turn. So I call a non /images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn assuming the same action form villain and re-evaluate river.

[youngmachetes]

i think betting flop is really bad, honestly. what do i do if i get c/r? i like taking the free card, as worse flush draws stick around to pay me off.

[MrWooster]

[ QUOTE ]
i think betting flop is really bad

[/ QUOTE ]

What were you hoping to flop when you raised K8s? Apart from a flopped flush?

This could not really be a better flop... 2 overcards and the 2nd nut flush draw - you have to bet this flop.

[youngmachetes]

i have k9, not k8. just because the flop hit me favorably it doesn't mean i have to bet the flop. this is a multiway action pot, if i get c/r i have to fold a good draw. my opponents are likely to give me action, and two-barreling does not seem very appealing at all.

[youngmachetes]

also, opening with this hand in the CO is completely standard.

[ama0330]

If you dont want to bet this flop, dont raise preflop. You cant raise hands like this and check fold every time you miss (which will be most times) as your play becomes super exploitable (call you preflop, bet flop, take it away). If you are going to bet a flop, this is the one to bet.

Turn stackoff is standard.

[ QUOTE ]
i think betting flop is really bad, honestly. what do i do if i get c/r? i like taking the free card, as worse flush draws stick around to pay me off.

[/ QUOTE ]

check calling a potsize bet on this flop out of position is -EV.

[hitch1978]

Youngmachetes, don't neglect the advantage of making a better hand fold with a flop bet.

To quote you 'opening with this hand in the CO is completely standard'.

So is the flop semi-bluff.

[youngmachetes]

i don't really understand your post. i am not c/f or c/c anything, as i am in pos. i don't always check this flop, either. i felt checking behind was the best thing to do at the time. i ended up getting stacked here by ATdd, but that is pretty irrelevant either way. i feel like i played the hand well, but i am not so single-minded as to not look for different/more optimal ways to play it.

[youngmachetes]

i'm not saying that semi-bluffing here is bad at all, but on this specific board i feel like i get c/r a large amount of the time. i am obv. getting it in if i get c/r. i decided to try a different line this time, and i think it was a good one.

[hitch1978]

The point I was trying to make was that the semi-bluff flop bet is pretty standard here, no?

Sorry if my post sounded aggressive, it wasn't supposed to. And I agree it was not very well put.

It just seemed like the advantages of the flop bet were never really given propper weight. Not only does it give villain a chance to fold the better hand, but it also makes it easier to get paid off should we get there with our flush.

[youngmachetes]

also, i don't really get why people act like there's only one way to play a hand, or assume that i always check this flop. in fact, i rarely check this flop.

[hitch1978]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not saying that semi-bluffing here is bad at all, but on this specific board i feel like i get c/r a large amount of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

By What?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not saying that semi-bluffing here is bad at all, but on this specific board i feel like i get c/r a large amount of the time. i am obv. getting it in if i get c/r. i decided to try a different line this time, and i think it was a good one.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry i misread the action, i thought you were oop.

there is no specific board that is more or less likely to see you get cr'ed on imo. this is more dependant on your opponents tendencies. i think that to lead this flop is best because it not only gives us the chance to win the pot immediately but it offers us deception in that if we check, then raise the turn when we hit, our hand is face up, where as if we double barrel both streets our range becomes much wider. Given that we will (or should) be bet-folding the turn with hands like 2pr and sets from time to time leading the flop makes our hand much less obvious and gets us paid more often.

Thats why I believe that in general, leading this flop is he best line. Of course in a vaccum you may be up against total morons who will call with anything in which case checking may be best. But you should realise that to bet this flop is going to be the most +ev line in the long run.

[youngmachetes]

yeah, betting the flop is standard. i decided to try something different this time, though. we are getting looked up on this flop by a pretty wide range, though, and people definitely don't like to fold their 88 or whatever.

[hitch1978]

I didn't assume anything about your play, but you posted THIS hand, not 10,000 hands.

You didn't ask for a review of your play, you asked for opinions on THIS hand.

Generally there is a standard/correct way to play under certain conditions, and you supplied our conditions.

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, betting the flop is standard. i decided to try something different this time, though. we are getting looked up on this flop by a pretty wide range, though, and people definitely don't like to fold their 88 or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have much more equity than 88

[youngmachetes]

ugh i hate poker

[jackrich00]

I think stacking off on the turn just has to happen. I also think that you have to bet the flop. You were talking about y you checked the flop and said that you did it because "worse flush draws stick around to pay me off." This is true but honestly, we are playing at $10 tables if they hold a worse flush draw than you then they are going to check call. Also look at you AI on the turn, it just looks stupidly strong because your not going all in after a min 3 bet weak. I think if he had had a weaker flush draw you give him the chance to fold here. If on the other hand you had bet the flop, he wold have probably just called you and the pot would be about $3.2 and he would lead probably for $2 giving you the chance to push and it your AI is more pot size. Another route i would probably take here is to just call his 3 bet on the turn, hope a diamond doesnt come on the river to kill the action and get it all in there. This is just how i would play it assuming he had a worse flush than you. It means when you get to the river after betting the flop and calling the 3 bet on the turn you both have most of your stack in there so AI on the river is inevitable. My advice is if he has a weaker flush than you, then you want to be betting along the way so you are buliding the pot to eventually get it AI instead of him having to call a 3.5X AI on the turn with a mediocre hand.

Hope this makes sense, im really tired and probably repeated myself alot, sorry.

[JROK777]

Bet the flop. Check the turn if you don't improve/get a scarecard to rep.

[viper930]

haha discussion

[youngmachetes]

?

[LegendLength]

Take our advice, bet the flop. You have two overcards and a flush draw.

When you play passively and check a flush draw it throws away any disguise you have. If you get check raised then just call it down unless it is large, you still have good implied odds (especially if check raised, they're in love with their hand and will likely pay you off big if you hit).