I donked, but bad call? (new player)

[hendrix23]

Party Poker
NL Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.05/$0.10
10 players

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG with Queen/images/graemlins/heart.gif Queen/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises .50</font>, Everybody folds, BB raises to $1.50
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises $3.70</font>,
BB All in.
<font color="#cc0000">Hero calls</font>
Flop: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif Queen/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Turn: Ace/images/graemlins/club.gif

river Queen/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB shows Ace/images/graemlins/spade.gif Ace/images/graemlins/diamond.gif



I realize I donked out huge on this one haha. But the guy said I made an idiot call. I've been getting advice from a very good NL5000 poker player though and this exact thing happened to me before PF. He told me to play it exactly like this. So I did. Bad Call, Good call. Things I should've done different?

[Gospy]

I think knowing stack sizes would help. Personally, I treat this situation differently depending on position and villain. But, if we assign his 4 bet range to JJ+, AK, and that's a loose range, you're flipping. If we tighten up to QQ+ you are a 20% favorite. I probably fold to a shove here, you might be good sometimes, but I think his range crushes you.

[Eric Yang]

NL5000?! Does that exist?!?!

Yes, stack sizes do matter a lot. The deeper you both are, the more you might want to consider folding. In The Little Green Book, phil gordon says that the 4th bet always means AA. although online play is a lot more loose, a 4bet typically isn't going to be AQ or JJ-. People will always be afraid that you have AA - unless they have it themselves.

[Jzo19]

[ QUOTE ]
NL5000?! Does that exist?!?!



[/ QUOTE ]

yea thats NL 25/50

it depends on stack sizes and villains range (how loose he is aggresiveness, etc etc) but i think his range is pretty tight considering your raising in EP...but at NL10 u never know ...

[hendrix23]

Thanks.

I sat down 5 hands ago, and he sat down 2 hands ago. My poker office is down so I had nothing on him. Both our stacks are $10.

I think the re-raise is correct to $3.70 though isn't it? By using the list in the sklansky book I'm reading know he could have re-raised out of the BB with TT-AA, AK, AKs. With AK I'm a slight favorite. the other hands TT-JJ is worse, KK-AA is better so I'm even there. After his push I was thinking QQ-AA, or AK. I don't know exactly the combonations, but I think there is 6 combonations of KK-AA where I'm 20% favorite. and 8 combinations of AK where I'm 56% (might be wrong on combinations haha). With $3.70 in the pot already I have to pay $6.30 to win $20 at this point, and the hands I could put him on I think I'de be around a 40% winner (6 combos of 20%+8 combos of 56%). My math could be terrible though here since I havn't been playing long.

Where would you fold? and would you re-raise his re-raise?

[hendrix23]

Bump. Is my rational above way off, or make some sense?

[ama0330]

As a general rule of thumb you should avoid stacking off with QQ against unknown opponents, but note that if you put him on a range of AK and QQ+, your call is +ev given your pot odds. The problem is that in my experience it is quite rare for an opponent to shove AK this way at these limits. If you feel like your read on the guy is that he could have AK here, call away.

Your raise to 3.70 is fine, but again, only if you think your opponent could have a worse hand than you. If you think he 3bets here with AK, then you can 4bet.

As you can see this is pretty read dependant which is why I recommend a fold until you can get a little better handle on what this guy is doing.

[hendrix23]

That makes a lot of sense. I probably shouldn't have gotten into that with someone I know absolutly nothing about, lol. Thanks a lot.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
That makes a lot of sense. I probably shouldn't have gotten into that with someone I know absolutly nothing about, lol. Thanks a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problems. I lost a lot of money at QQ at 10nl before I stopped calling. Its a hard hand to throw away /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[thePiranha]

lol listen guys you never throw away QQ here ever!
if your doing this you all have a serious leak
even if the guy is a rock calling with 6-5 odds id good
please know what your talking about before posting advice to new players!

[Eric Yang]

[ QUOTE ]
lol listen guys you never throw away QQ here ever!
if your doing this you all have a serious leak
even if the guy is a rock calling with 6-5 odds id good
please know what your talking about before posting advice to new players!

[/ QUOTE ]

come on man. QQ gets ridiculously dominated vs KK and AA and is only a slight favorite over AKo. Although I agree that there are some maniacs who will push with JJ or even any pocket pair (thinking that they are flipping against AK), these guys are dumbasses. Which means that you need to get reads against them to know they're dumbasses. Against decent players if you would push QQ preflop every time, then it's you who has the leak.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
lol listen guys you never throw away QQ here ever!
if your doing this you all have a serious leak
even if the guy is a rock calling with 6-5 odds id good
please know what your talking about before posting advice to new players!

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[JROK777]

At higher buy ins, stacking off w/QQ+AKo is standard. People 4 bet light in those games. The players are good and aggressive and have a bigger 4 betting range. At the micros, a 4 bet means AA-KK usually. Fold at the micros unless you think villians range is bigger.

[Poker's Busmalis]

Yes, I have played almost 22K hands on UltimateBet NL10 now and I don't think I have seen any full stack 4-bet (or pf allin) with worse hand than AA/KK. It's very rare.

[hendrix23]

[ QUOTE ]
At higher buy ins, stacking off w/QQ+AKo is standard. People 4 bet light in those games. The players are good and aggressive and have a bigger 4 betting range. At the micros, a 4 bet means AA-KK usually. Fold at the micros unless you think villians range is bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe getting advice from a NL5000 player isn't the best right now since his competitions habits are vastly different from mine.

Thanks guys.

[Keitan]

Agreed, QQ is always trouble when stacks get in preflop at these limits. Without a solid read and avg stacks LET THEM GO.

[members_only]

Anyone else not like the 4-bet pre-flop?

[hendrix23]

sorry, I'm a little new to the lingo. by 4 bet, do you mean you don't like my re-raise to $3.70, or his push?

[RichAM]

um, this is shorthanded NL forum ... you need to go to the limit forum

[members_only]

4-bet means your re-raise to $3.70

He 3-bet you when he made it $1.50 (The first 'bet' being the blinds, and the second being your original raise)

[hendrix23]

gotcha, thanks.