NL25, hitting top pair against a TAG

[Nogatsira]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($25.10)
BB ($25)
UTG ($14.75)
MP ($34.45)
CO ($25)
Hero ($28.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.10) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $1.75</font>, Hero calls $1.75, BB folds.

Turn: ($6.60) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $3</font>, Hero calls $3.

River: ($12.60) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $5.5</font>, Hero calls $5.50.

Final Pot: $23.60

So hows my line here?
Villain is 12.5/12.5/5

I know I shouldnt post results or anything but I'm having such a huge downswing and offcorse he showed pocket 9s in this hand. So did I had to reraise at a certain point in this hand?
I'm getting totaly lost..

[bordeel]

raise flop to $5-$6 , don't let him catch up

[skibbel]

Raise preflop, raise flop, raise turn.
You called with AK 4 times with TPTK lol

[TTStrangler]

This is a must 3bet situation IMO. As bad as you feel during downswings don't let them affect your play, this hand screams playing not to lose, instead of playing to win.

Unless Villain played back at your for whatever reason before the river, you should have had control of the hand on every street after your pre flop 3bet.

[Nogatsira]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop, raise flop, raise turn.
You called with AK 4 times with TPTK lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats so "lol" about that?
I figured if he had AA or AK he would probably bet more, I rather let him bluff off his chips with QQ or whatever he's holding then to get his weaker holding out.

[skibbel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise preflop, raise flop, raise turn.
You called with AK 4 times with TPTK lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats so "lol" about that?

[/ QUOTE ]
You got the third (fourth) best hand in NL holdem and u're not raising.

[Nogatsira]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a must 3bet situation IMO. As bad as you feel during downswings don't let them affect your play, this hand screams playing not to lose, instead of playing to win.

Unless Villain played back at your for whatever reason before the river, you should have had control of the hand on every street after your pre flop 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was indeed more a hand I was playing not to loose. His low vpip just screamed AA AK KK QQ JJ, stuff like that.
Thats why I just called him down, he could be hanging himself with QQ, KQ or already had me beat the entire time.
And reraising and facing a shove on the turn would cost me as much as calling down his rather small bets.

But lets say I 3-bet him preflop and pot the flop. How do I continue after he calls and checks it to me on the turn?

[skibbel]

[ QUOTE ]

I rather let him bluff off his chips with QQ or whatever he's holding then to get his weaker holding out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Play big pot with big hands and hope your villian likes his hand, too.

[skibbel]

[ QUOTE ]
It was indeed more a hand I was playing not to loose. His low vpip just screamed AA AK KK QQ JJ, stuff like that.
Thats why I just called him down, he could be hanging himself with QQ, KQ or already had me beat the entire time.
And reraising and facing a shove on the turn would cost me as much as calling down his rather small bets.

But lets say I 3-bet him preflop and pot the flop. How do I continue after he calls and checks it to me on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Pot, pot, pot, pot!

[Nogatsira]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was indeed more a hand I was playing not to loose. His low vpip just screamed AA AK KK QQ JJ, stuff like that.
Thats why I just called him down, he could be hanging himself with QQ, KQ or already had me beat the entire time.
And reraising and facing a shove on the turn would cost me as much as calling down his rather small bets.

But lets say I 3-bet him preflop and pot the flop. How do I continue after he calls and checks it to me on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Pot, pot, pot, pot!

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO you seem to overplay TPTK against tight players.
What hand would a tight player call a 3bet with and call a potsized bet with on the flop? As far as I know I could be drawing dead here.

[skibbel]

He has an AF of 5, he usually won't call AA/KK preflop and slowplay on the flop =&gt; Pot it.

[TTStrangler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a must 3bet situation IMO. As bad as you feel during downswings don't let them affect your play, this hand screams playing not to lose, instead of playing to win.

Unless Villain played back at your for whatever reason before the river, you should have had control of the hand on every street after your pre flop 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But lets say I 3-bet him preflop and pot the flop. How do I continue after he calls and checks it to me on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I would be a little surprised to see a TAGGY Villain with those stats play the hand this way. After getting 3bet I feel they would probably call to fit or fold on the flop, then get out when you PSB the flop. If he's still in there on the turn, I really think it's time for another value bet. Villain may be tight, but it looks like he raises almost any hand he plays, at 12% he doesn't have a high pair a good majority of the time.

[TTStrangler]

[ QUOTE ]
He has an AF of 5, he usually won't call AA/KK preflop and slowplay on the flop =&gt; Pot it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another great point, you would be able to narrow his range with the pre flop 3bet too. If you get popped with a 4bet from him, watch out.

[Genesis]

I really don't mind your play in this hand. Preflop, usually 3bet but you can mix it up. I can see an argument for raising the flop to avoid giving BB good drawing odds, but other than that this can easily be treated as WA/WB. If he's got AA or KK you're in trouble. AK obvious split. Anything else and you are way ahead; likely he has 2 or 3 outs. An obvious exception is if he holds low suited connectors that now have a good draw but those are less likely based on his PF stats. His aggression factor also suggests he is not going to be calling a lot of raises, and will instead fold when he thinks he's behind. Raising postflop is not going to get you extra value, it will just let you know which of WA or WB you are.

[Rafpig]

Nog, it seems to me you are triying to find a way to justify your line, which seems generated by inner fear, maybe because of a downswing. The correct way to play this hand was suggested here, basically you should have raised every single street. You can´t live in fear.

[Nogatsira]

No I'm not trying to find a way to justify my line, its just that I aint happy with advice as "reraise".
I mean.. that's the same as when you're playing a soccergame and someone in the croud yells SHOOOOOOT. I just like to get advice that comes with an explanation.
The part where Skibble made it more clear where he talks abou tthe AF is fine for me and I agree totaly with him.

On the other hand I also agree with Genesis, the fact that it might be a WA/WB situation against this villain.

The real question here is: how can I find out in hands like these that its an obvious value raise that I have to make or that I'm WA/WB.

What range should I put him on, how to play against that range on this board, .. answers like that would be way better then "raise flop $5-$6 dont let him catch up" or "pot pot pot pot" (no offence to the people who posted that, but really, please explain yourself when posting advice)

[skibbel]

You have 60% Equity vs 12.5% raisingrange. So 3-bet. You never find out where you are if you call 4 streets.

[Henrix1970]

He could easily raise with KTs,KJ,KQ,QQ,JJ,TT,99,88 (all in his range) and still like his hand! If you don't raise preflop then do it on the Flop or would you c/c Aces on a 27Q rainbow board because your opponen might hold a set?

[whyherro]

Raising this flop is silly. The turn card narrows his range a lot once he bets, I prolly raise on the turn once he bets so weak.

[whyherro]

To be more descriptive, the flop is a WA/WB situation, where you beat basically all of his top pair holdings and lose to all of his stronger ones (the two likely sets and AA). There's really no draws on the board. If for whatever reason you thought he would play a flush this way, the turn action pretty much rules it out. Once the next 7 hits on the turn and he bets it really polarizes his range to bottom set, AA, some sort of top pair hand and underpairs. You are way ahead of this range and the turn is the best spot to get more money in the pot.

[ICMoney]

I 3b this pf almost every time.
Pot on flop will be $8. Pot on turn will be $19.
Now you can shove the turn and count your Slanksy Bucks.

[ViciousPuma]

i prefer a 3bet pre. and putting a raise in somewhere. you underplayed your hand too much.

[C4LL4W4Y]

[ QUOTE ]
No I'm not trying to find a way to justify my line, its just that I aint happy with advice as "reraise".
I mean.. that's the same as when you're playing a soccergame and someone in the croud yells SHOOOOOOT. I just like to get advice that comes with an explanation.
The part where Skibble made it more clear where he talks abou tthe AF is fine for me and I agree totaly with him.

On the other hand I also agree with Genesis, the fact that it might be a WA/WB situation against this villain.

The real question here is: how can I find out in hands like these that its an obvious value raise that I have to make or that I'm WA/WB.

What range should I put him on, how to play against that range on this board, .. answers like that would be way better then "raise flop $5-$6 dont let him catch up" or "pot pot pot pot" (no offence to the people who posted that, but really, please explain yourself when posting advice)

[/ QUOTE ]

you have the button and you have a premium hand, so now is the perfect time to build a pot. your hand has a lot of equity (from both cbets and value bets) on most flops, so you're looking to inflate the pot size with position.

don't automatically assume aa/kk based on a relatively small sample size. you still need to raise this hand for value preflop.

[milespro]

By underplaying his hand the OP got the villain to over value his. Without taking the results into the account, he probably got the most value out of this. I like the OP's play in this hand tbh, situationally this passive play can pay off @ at this limit. (without getting sucked out on) Versus raising the flop and villain folding. just my 2....

[NL Newbie]

WA/WB inducing bluffs, played fine vs nit.

May fold river depedning upon bet size and may reraise pre sometimes.

[IAGTTAYM]

You could 3-bet preflop, but calling is fine too.
Flop is fine.
Prolly raise turn.
As played, I call river.

[traz]

3bet preflop, raise flop, rest is fine