LETS GET SOME DISCUSSION... JJ and my pre and post flop play

[kaz2107]

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
4 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $96.33
Button: $99.75
SB: $57.35
Hero: $111.50

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $2</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $5</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($15, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises all-in $52.35</font>, Hero???


Reads and thoughts...

well im playin 50nl of late because i suck at poker and am practically busto online from cashing out to buy kool stuff for school and all that. utg raiser is a solid tag playin 18 11 2.5 and the main villian is a bit of a maniac playing 50 25 4.5. my image is pretty reckless tho. i have been playin 33 31 7 over about 100 hands with both villians.

First off i didnt 4 bet preflop because sb had not shown the ability to call 3 bets light let alone 4 bets and had only 3 bet 5 or 6 times while i had been at the table. also utg was good and if i did raise i expected a call from at least the one of the two and the last thing i wanted to do was play JJ in a HUGE pot and possibly not even have position. so i decided to see wut the flop had to offer and play from their.

the flop was about as dry as it gets and villian leads which was expected altho it was exceptionally small. so i decide that i have to be ahead of his range and fire a smallish raise in their with the intent to raise fold this bad boy. then of course he shoves and i realize how weak my raise looked. i had layed down a couple hands where i bet folded the turn and river in the last 20 hands or so. so i had proven i was capable of bluffing/laying down hands (not sure how villian perceived it)

so any ways. wut do u all think??? call the shove??? im really not ahead of much other then a bluff but given the circumstances i think it is a decent part of his range. how do u like the smooth call preflop??

[Ikaika]

Preflop is fine but I'd dump it on the flop after he 3BAI. Not sure how I feel about it, especially since villain is so loose, but I'd like to see what others have to say.

I also tend to lose a [censored] load of money with JJ as well, so take that as you will...:(

[scallop]

50/25/4.2 - Massive Range. Your behind 33/66/99.

I doubt this guy ever really has a bigger pair because, as you say he has rarely been 3-betting so he's probablly doing that only with the goods.

78 is a part of his range, as are sets, a9, 77, 88, TT.

Id call here and be fine with it.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
50/25/4.2 - Massive Range. Your behind 33/66/99.

I doubt this guy ever really has a bigger pair because, as you say he has rarely been 3-betting so he's probablly doing that only with the goods.

78 is a part of his range, as are sets, a9, 77, 88, TT.

Id call here and be fine with it.

[/ QUOTE ]ur post is confusing me. u say he 3 bets rarely and probably does it with the goods but right bfore that u say he rarely has a bigger pair/??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[traz]

What were you trying to accomplish with the flop raise? Also, regardless of your answer, it's a mustfold once he raises

[DaycareInferno]

i really hate hands like this. i mean, you've got a pretty good hand, but there's action in front of you, but one of the guys is a tard, so who knows. then come the awkward bet sizes, and of course the decent player has to be the one behind you.

i think the first two actions are a lot harder than whether or not to call the AI.

[GtrHtr]

raise more pf, call shove or fold depends on the guy

[Mr_Pathetic]

I think PF is fine. I don't think I call here though. His line looks like the let me bet weak to get opponent to raise so I can shove it. But on the other hand if you think he will shove this with 78 then I guess you got to call it.

[Lego05]

I might fold pre-flop especially with your read on sb.

I definitely don't raise flop...just call.

After you raise flop and he 3bets it's among the easiest folds ever.



Disclaimer: Last 100,000 hands at 50NL I'm at ~5.5PTBB/100 hands, but so far tonight I've had ~4,5 shots of soco and 3 and a half beers. I'm still pretty sure I'm dead on here.

[GtrHtr]

wow, I totally misread this hand. nm.

[Spanky1974]

SB 3bet pf and b3bai on flop. I don't really see what you beat here except maybe AK, TT and a complete bluff. As played, I think calling is kinda spewy.

[corsakh]

I really don't like it preflop since your purposely putting yourself in a tough spot. If I think he is 3betting light I raise it since I really hate to see a flop with JJ. If he is not I fold without much thought. Given your read he is a maniac, I 4bet preflop and obviously call a push.

Postflop discussion from someone with your number of posts makes me laugh. WTF.

[orange]

looks like a pretty easy flop call once you raise. maniac/nice board/rr-ed pot/invested alot = instacall.

[kaz2107]

kinda wut i was expecting. seems everyone is split. i would love to hear a range or two that people put villian on throughout the hand. both preflop and then after the shove. imma go pwn some math classes and then come back and give some of my thoughts after the fact.

[scallop]

[ QUOTE ]
looks like a pretty easy flop call once you raise. maniac/nice board/rr-ed pot/invested alot = instacall.

[/ QUOTE ]

[bozzer]

grunch: calling the shove would be a bad idea imo. your raise looks moderately weak, but given that villains 3b range doesn't seem to be especially wide any 'bluff' probably has 6 outs against you, and I don't think he's bluffing that much.

I'm not sure how much credit you are giving him for being a thinking player though. Is he positionally aware? is he likely to have a tight range because UTG is tight and utg? what does he think your 3b calling range might be?

Basically, I think you have to have some rough answers at least to these questions to consider calling here.

edit after reading posts: hmm 30% equity needed to call. it's close actually.

[corsakh]

Words "range" and "maniac" do not go well together unless ATC is a range you want.

ps Thanks, thread delivers /images/graemlins/smile.gif But I think BBV is a more appropriate place.
pss May be playing with scared money is not such a good idea. Just a thought /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bozzer]

cor, the guy has a 25% pfr and 6% pfrr, and is quite aggro when he is in a hand over a limited sample. he is perfectly rangeable.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
grunch: calling the shove would be a bad idea imo. your raise looks moderately weak, but given that villains 3b range doesn't seem to be especially wide any 'bluff' probably has 6 outs against you, and I don't think he's bluffing that much.

I'm not sure how much credit you are giving him for being a thinking player though. Is he positionally aware? is he likely to have a tight range because UTG is tight and utg? what does he think your 3b calling range might be?

Basically, I think you have to have some rough answers at least to these questions to consider calling here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this sort of thing, even the bad players hands can usually be defined to an extremely thin range when they 3 bet preflop (in my experience anyway) if you're calling preflop with JJ there it's for set value only, you might run into a goon with AQ or AK or even the odd smaller pair, but generally they will give you all the action you want when you're behind the range. In the end of the day calling this is just as fishy as those goons calling off all their chips with JJ when it's obvious it can never be good.

Also 4 handed you aint playing that loose at 33/31, and very few people pay attention anyway.

Mack

[maciczka]

i call it and im ready to reload

[minSim]

I expect that:
AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQs
are definately in villains range, and you should call against it.

Because you played, you should do an estimation how likely the following are:

33, 66, 99, 45, 78, air.

Seeing that you only have to win like 30% of the time to be profitable, this probably isn't even a close call.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
cor, the guy has a 25% pfr and 6% pfrr, and is quite aggro when he is in a hand over a limited sample. he is perfectly rangeable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geroge Bush is rangeble. I just dont see how this is going to help this hand.

"HEY! His range is not ATC, its only 25% ATC! We are now only 10 to 1 favorites instead of 50 to 1! I think we should fold! YE!"

[starkwired]

I'd raise more preflop and flat the flop, but probably fold to the reraise.

[mackthefork]

If you're a 60/40 dog you'll be lucky, but i guess thats enough to call, what happened anyway, he folded right?

Mack

[Waingro]

I think it is close between calling and folding pf. Obv we want to see a flop with something as good as JJ with position on sb, even if we think his range is fairly tight. However, utg is still in the hand, and he is obviously going to 4bet some of the time. And because sb is less than solid and there is some money in the pot and to shut you out, he might want to gamble with QQ and AK as well or even less. QQ+ and AK is at least 25% of his range here so that means you are not going to see a flop a bit too often. I don´t really mind a fold pf.

Just call the flop unless this is what you were aiming for. How hard can it be, don´t raise this flop with something as good as JJ giving you great odds to call a push from a maniac if you don´t plan on calling.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]

Just call the flop unless this is what you were aiming for. How hard can it be, don´t raise this flop with something as good as JJ giving you great odds to call a push from a maniac if you don´t plan on calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

[munkey]

Sheesh kaz I come back and you post a v.hard hand.

First I think jacks are one of the hardest hands to play
esp OOP and in a multiway 3bet pot.

UTG has TT+, AQs+ and some more hands he's likely been 3betting the fish with but I'll use std 3bet range because it's easier and I thin ku said he hasn't been 3betting much.

SB: preflop alot of cards but the sahara dry flop helps narrow his range

I play preflop the same, for the reasons u mentioned pretty much.

On the flop I like your raise size but if UTG shoves I think we have to fold even though it means our raise wasn't best but as played given pot size HU with the tool we have to call the shove.

I say A9, 9x,a6, 33,66,99 ,45,78 all PPs AA-22 except JJ, AJ KQ AQ and 10% total bluff.

In these situations with a fairly wide range I often shove for value but don't know whether this is right, as I find it hard to put them on a range in teh 1st place and amnot sure of our equity then.

I think in these situations you've just got to go with your read and shove or fold.

Alternately in my WT canoe /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I like calling the flop bet and on a blank non-broadway[edit:on jack /images/graemlins/smirk.gif turn with more info shoving/folding turn -this gives us more info and vs bluffs gets him to bluff again and gives us way more equity vs UI hands/draws he may have. Postion and handreading we get to use this way.


AFAIK we don't have to raise the flop for protection if we're folding on higher card turn.

Also with UTG behind us if he 3bet a big hand he can make his move[I think he has AK BTW here as played] we can get away with only 6 put in on the flop.

[AZplaya]

kaz if your gonna cold call almost %10 of your stack pre against this type of player, you gotta be willing to felt it on this type of flop. Sometimes he flips over AA - QQ and you gotta reload, but just as often I think you see alot of whiffed overs or smaller pairs that your ahead of.

[kaz2107]

hmmmm just got back from class and read tha responses. some good thought (from everyone other then corsahk which i 100% disagree that i am WAY ahead) which is what i was hoping for. im on life tilt right now as the direct tv guy just came out to my new house and said i cant get HD unless i chop down some trees in the front yard. so i called around about that and it looks like it is gonna cost like 1k to do that. sigh.

so imma think over a few of the responses, play a game or two of madden 08 since i can infact play that in HD even tho i have trees /images/graemlins/frown.gif, and then get back to u all.

[bozzer]

kaz. I think the advice from munkey, luckyjimm and AZplaya in this thread is pretty sharp. corsakh has a point in that there is a lot of uncertainty about the correct answer for this particular player.

the best advice i can give is to not chop down the trees!

[kaz2107]

ok ill try to give a few of my thoughts now that i am recomposed.

i put the sbs preflop range at sumtin like 99+ AJs+ and AQo+ and then maybe like 4 or 5 random hands like suited connectors or midd pps. so against that rainge im like 55% against him but with the reasonable utg player in the hand i obv cant look to bloat the pot n e more then it already is.

now on the flop it is about as good as i can expect obv. and since villian is aggro i expect him to bet aa flop like this with prolly 90% of his range. prolly the top 1 or 2 hands dont and tha bottom one or two wont always either. the thing that makes this hand tough is my raise size. if i woulda made it like 19ish it would give me slightly better pot odds when sb shoves. the problem with this idea is if utg shoves i am toast and will have to fold thus losing more money.

the more i think about the hand tho i think it is closer to a fold then a call given how it has been played out. even tho i made a smaller raise on the flop then normal i think at the time and still maybe even now overestimate the ability of people to bluff off a 100bb stack in a reraised pot. and in this case even if he is bluffing, more then half the time he has 6 outs or more against me. so this effectively kills more equity. sigh. so in retrospect i think this hand is a fold.

ill post results in a few hours after people have some time to read thru this and discuss it if n e discusion is needed.


to address corsahk... u r wrong in this situation. while villian has been a maniac if u read the post u would know that he hadnt been getting out of line with 3 betting a ton thus his range is far from atc. and getting a bet 3 bet shove also defines his range much more as well. there is no way this is a simple shove and good luck. if u r thinking that then u r misapplying reads and hud numbers.

every situation has some range and VERY RARELY is villians range atc. that is just rediculous.

[mackthefork]

I think he's defined his range enough for you to fold here, i really do, I hope you called and won, but honestly I really doubt you are ever good here.

Mack

[bozzer]

Here's my first stab at weighting ranges with the wonderful new software from mikechops:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Results from www.HoldEmRanger.com
65,340 evaluations, 66 hole card combos

Board: 3h 6c 9s

Wins Ties Equity
35.85% 1.28% 37.13% ( JcJh )
61.59% 1.28% 62.87% ( TT+,99, 66(50), 33(25), AK(30), AQ(25) ) </pre><hr />

the numbers in brackets are how often I think he'll take this line with that hand. e.g. he'll b3b with AQ a quarter of the time, he'll 3b pf 33 and then b3b half the time on this flop etc.

From this stab it looks like we have a reasonable amount of equity.

This is the bit where corsakh has a point. How often does he b3b AK?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Borderline estimates often help to clear things up though. Here's one:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Results from www.HoldEmRanger.com
65,340 evaluations, 66 hole card combos

Board: 3h 6c 9s

Wins Ties Equity
28.11% 1.53% 29.64% ( JcJh )
68.83% 1.53% 70.36% ( TT+,99, 66(50), 33(25), AK(10), AQ(5) ) </pre><hr />


I reckon he's doing this with AK and other stuff you beat enough to call.

[orange]

I think that raise/folding this flop is horrible. Why raise to begin with? you obviously think you're going to gain value from much less of his range. What makes you think that he won't be shoving with his 88 instead of calling your raise/c/c-ing your turn shove? he's obviously aggressive and his range is wide.

raise/folding overpairs against aggro players is lighting money on fire.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
kaz. I think the advice from munkey, luckyjimm and AZplaya in this thread is pretty sharp. corsakh has a point in that there is a lot of uncertainty about the correct answer for this particular player.

the best advice i can give is to not chop down the trees!

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not luckyjimm and I resent the implications. I should seriously consider changing my nick, now that he is a minor forum celebrity. I registered here way before him.

[kaz2107]

k well i ended up talking myself into calling even tho the intial plan was to raise fold the flop. sigh. lol. he flipped over QQ and double thru me.

seems like this had good discusion tho so ill see if i cant stir up another hand with some uncertaintity this weekend and make another post

[AZplaya]

kaz,
I still think your being results oriented here - most 50/25 maniac types that I've played against have a big range for shoving after they 3 bet pre - sometimes they flip over the goods and its teh suck, but I still think your far enough ahead of his range to call the shove. Also, against a super aggro player, raise/folding this flop sux. If your raising here, its so you can induce a push which you call with a double fist pump.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
kaz,
I still think your being results oriented here - most 50/25 maniac types that I've played against have a big range for shoving after they 3 bet pre - sometimes they flip over the goods and its teh suck, but I still think your far enough ahead of his range to call the shove. Also, against a super aggro player, raise/folding this flop sux. If your raising here, its so you can induce a push which you call with a double fist pump.

[/ QUOTE ]throw out a range for me. im kinda curious. when i messed with it i had a rough time comin up with one where i was break even with the pot odds i was getting.

PS
i had another semi interesting hand tonight with JJ and a weird line with some weird meta game stuff. so maybe ill have an encore later

PSS
i could deff b thinkin about this results oriented because of how bad i have been running/playing but as soon as i talked myself into calling i immediatly hit myself in the forehead. so meh

[AZplaya]

this is the range I would put a 50/25 on here...
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

49,500 games 0.031 secs 1,596,774 games/sec

Board: 3c 6h 9s
Dead:
equity
Hand 0: 50.046% { JcJh }

Hand 1: 49.954% { 88+, AKs, AKo }

even if we get rid of AK against 88+ your about 40/60. And I think that against this type of player you should give at least 10% to complete FPS.

[orange]

here is a thread on raise/folding. ae's post is good.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=10601624&amp;an=&amp;page=0&amp;vc=1

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
here is a thread on raise/folding. ae's post is good.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=10601624&amp;an=&amp;page=0&amp;vc=1

[/ QUOTE ]&lt;3 v good thread. ill reread it tomorow morning fa sho.

AZ- hmm that range looks reasonable actually. idk wut i was doing tbh. i swear when i looked at it i even threw in like 4 random SCs and then had it like 99+ and then AK and like 66 or sumtin and was gettin like 30-70ish equity.

tha range u gave looks pretty good tho which is making me think it is actually possibly a call here. hmmm. lol.

[Xanta]

Do not ever raise and fold to a shove. That line isn't the product of any logical line of thought, its just er..., I think I'm OK here I'm gonna raise, ZOMG HE'S SHOVING RUN AWAY!

Basically, SB is never ever bet/folding this flop. Make sure you're aware of that because of your flop action.

The combination of your image, his style, and the ever important fact that preflop really defines your handrange for him pretty well (he knows that you're not going to show up with AA/KK very much at all here) means that I like a call.

Edit: Against this kind of guy, I give him well over a 10% chance of having complete [censored] here. Probably in the 15-20 range. Don't ask where I got the number from, it's just a hunch from personal experience.

[corsakh]

When did I say you were 100% ahead here?

I said the way you chose to play preflop, gave you no choice on this flop. Ahead or behind, dont freaking call off 15% of your stack preflop and then ask questions what you should do with an overpair. This is hilarious.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
When did I say you were 100% ahead here?

I said the way you chose to play preflop, gave you no choice on this flop. Ahead or behind, dont freaking call off 15% of your stack preflop and then ask questions what you should do with an overpair. This is hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]omg. so r u seriously sayin if u call 15% of ur stack off preflop then u r inclined to get all in everytime u have an over pair??? wow. awsome advice.

and i love the line of u cant assign a range to a maniac even tho i think his range is pretty narrow by the end. u sound rediculously uneducated in poker in this thread. give the hands more thought or dont bother. im seriously tempted to make it so i cant see ur posts n e more (u r the first person i have ever even conosidered this with.) about the only time i see u post u r trolling or making rediculous statements about something.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
omg. so r u seriously sayin if u call 15% of ur stack off preflop then u r inclined to get all in everytime u have an over pair??? wow. awsome advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not.
Sometimes I put a little prob-raise to see where I stand. So that its easier to fold my preflop slowplay to a maniac /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ps Don't bother. I wont bother you with my "trolling" and "rediculous" advice no more. Good luck at the tables.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
omg. so r u seriously sayin if u call 15% of ur stack off preflop then u r inclined to get all in everytime u have an over pair??? wow. awsome advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not.
Sometimes I put a little prob-raise to see where I stand. So that its easier to fold my preflop slowplay to a maniac /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ps Don't bother. I wont bother you with my "trolling" and "rediculous" advice no more. Good luck at the tables.

[/ QUOTE ]sorry dude i dont wanna sound like an [censored] but i dont think u r looking at this in the right way and really just spouting off "the easy response"

if i thought it was a clear shove then i obv wouldnt have posted it. and i think that the responses here by respected posters justifies my opinion that is was razor thin either way. i deffinatly dont think this is bvb worthy and imo isnt even close to that.

i explained that villian was a maniac but still wanst 3 betting all day and thus did in fact have a range and one that could b discussed. he in no way had n e 2 cards. and while this flopped missed a big chunk of his preflop range he is not 3 bet shoving 100% of his preflop range. thus it is close.

and preflop i was not slow playin wut so ever. i never slow play preflop. if i thought i was ahead of villians calling range i would have shoved or w/e. i just read a thread is ssnl about calling 3 bets with hands that are going to be behind villians calling range if we shove or 4 bet or w/e. we have position and are much better post flop then villian. thus calling is better imo.