JJ Call flop shove?

[KCrow]

Villain is 22/11/3.9

I've been reasonably aggressive on this table but not had to show any hands.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $40.85
BB: $124.90
Hero (UTG): $63.10
MP: $33.00
CO: $74.45
BTN: $44.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $1.75, BB folds

Flop: ($4.50) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $4.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises all-in to $38.85</font>, [i]Hero?

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Without any reads other than he is aggressive, I would fold here. With two fives on the board, I don't think he is shoving without a very big hand that beats yours. And if he is shoving against a raise on a paired board as a total bluff, then he is very wreckless and you will make this back plus interest against him later

[LethargicMule]

looks like a fold without a read on how he plays his big pairs. otherwise he could play a smaller overpair this way if he is a donk. does he always 3 bet his big overpairs? if so i think this is a call.

[LethargicMule]

when you have so much invested already its tought o fold this hand.

[dnord]

I guess you're mostly hoping that he's pushing 66/77/99/TT, and not that he's pushing AA/KK/QQ, but I think he probably would have 3-bet AA/KK, so maybe I believe he's holding a worse pocket pair than you. 88 is what he's representing by doing this, and I just don't think I believe it.

I'm having a very hard time imagining unpaired cards he would play like this. I think it might be 40% random 8s, 30% misplayed 5s, and 30% misguided Ax bluffs.

[orig!naL]

this is really tough, but I think it's a fold. I really don't see him having 88; I doubt he would play the nuts that way. Given that you're only hope is he has 99 or TT. This looks like a huge pocket pair to me, one that for whatever reason he didn't 3-bet pre-flop.

[retleftolc]

Grunch

SB calls our raise saying- I got a little something.

SB Donks saying- Am I good? or I am good!!

You raise saying- Hey, I don't just have AK here!

He <u>Pushes</u> saying- I don't care, I don't want your information.

What hand do we put him on through out the hand? A5s, 56s, 9's, T's, J's, and QQ. Through in a AQ and for good measure.

More importantly, what is his all-in range? Throw out 9's - J's. Its not AQ. Maybe QQ. But what do we beat?

Fold.

What could have been done differently?

Preflop good.

Flop-

He just didn't donk- He bet the pot. He is 22/11 so he's probably not out of line. Our alternate choices are call or fold. Can't really find a fold here. Maybe call and fold to turn aggression. If we call, he is committed with his next bet.

I probably play it the same way you did at the table.

Ret

[Lego05]

I'd probably just call his original flop bet.

[Rant]

I call on the flop. His stats aren't bad so he's maybe not a donk. The turn will tell us a lot more.

The flop raise is either:
1) Value raise - I'm too nervous to value raise here against a raise call and a big flop bet. He's more likely to have AA-QQ or x5 than 67, x8.

2) An attempt to get him to fold - I don't see the point in getting him to fold. He isn't likely on a draw. If he's ahead of us then we're giving him our $. If he's behind then he's going to fold and we'd be better off getting something out of him on the turn and the river.

[IlliniDave]

I'd call the flop and see what he does on the turn; not really committed AI with the board that way and him betting the pot which is telling us villain has something.

[traz]

not a big fan of the flop raise, especially if you fold to the shove

[Eric Draven]

Could some of you guys elaborate more on just calling? The more I think about it the more it make sense, but I honestly just re-raise and fold to a 3-bet here almost everytime (and the ones that don't fall into this are the times I call even though I know I shouldn't, hoping he's bluffing or something)... and I don't know why.

[KCrow]

Looking back at the hand I think I agree with flat calling, and re-evaluating on the turn. As Rant pointed out, a raise is only going to fold weaker hands and get called by stronger ones.

[mvdgaag]

We should be raising the flop if we feel we are ahead of his allin range and want the chips in. So if you think you are ahead: go ahead and raise, but you have to call.

If your raise was meant as a bluff you can fold, but I wouldn't use this hand to bluff this flop since that is better left to hands with less value IMO.

I like to call the flop instead of raise. Lots of people bluff any hand on a paired flop and would bet a small pair or an 8 here. I think we can discount aces and kings for him and even queens are likely to have been raised preflop.

If he bets out on the turn again we call... It'll have cost us the same as a raise, but we got all the way to the river without the chance to be bluffed/reraised out. Also we haven't affected his range too much, so you might have a profitable call on the river.

[scallop]

[ QUOTE ]
not a big fan of the flop raise, especially if you fold to the shove

[/ QUOTE ]

So if we're raising are we calling ?

[Waingro]

I raise this flop and call a push. I think you are miles ahead and if we are worried about a 5 here an 8 is so much more likely. Low paired flops is very good for inducing action from worse hands. I agree with previous posters, you can´t raise/fold this flop.