50 NL, river against a donk, call or all in?

[Ricky_Bobby]

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $49.25
BB: $68.10
UTG: $57.15
Hero (MP): $54.40
CO: $30.25
BTN: $56.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $1.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($4.25) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $3.00</font>, BTN calls $3.00

Turn: ($10.25) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $7.00</font>, BTN calls $7.00

River: ($24.25) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $24.25</font>,

Hero?

The guy is 65/26/1 only previous hand he check raised me when I had 99 on an 8 high board and I folded.

I'm never folding, but should I raise the rest, or maybe lead the river and call a raise?

I realize my flop and turn bets were a bit small, 50 is not my normal game and I can admit I'm playing a bit tentatively. I'm also not used to so much rake being taken out, as I believe the actual pot was closer to 9 on the turn.

[WarhammerIIC]

If you're going to call this bet, putting $36 total in, you may as well get it all in there. My guess is he's getting cute here, trying to represent the flush draw. I don't know what hand he could possibly have that would call those two bets and backdoor a flush. Then again, he's 65/26, so he could have pretty much anything. The only thing I'd be worried about is 33, 66, or 88, but this is a really stupid bet to make if that's your hand when the flush comes in.

I'm pushing.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

If your plan is to go with the hand and not fold, I think you should lead out with a modest bet on the river. The bet will serve both as a value bet and a blocking bet. As a value bet, it extracts value from weaker made hands. As a blocking bet, it saves you some money because your opponent has a good chance of just calling if he has a flush or better two pair, saving you some money. If he pushes the river, its an insta-fold because he has you beat most of the time.

[bung]

b/f 1/2 pot on river. Flop and turn bets are fine. As played,I don't think you can fold here getting 2:1 w/2pair. He seems to be super aggro. You're SB/WA here I think.

nh, villain had Q6s lol.

[Ricky_Bobby]

My thinking was that once I check his range is going to be skewed to nuts/nothing, so raising wouldn't have much value. If I make a big bet on the river there aren't too many hands that can call which are worse than mine.

I just have a hard time making block bets. If I bet 10 I'm asking him to raise me off of the hand. IF I bet 15 it will be less likely that he's bluffing me but I'll be getting about 3:1 to call against a guy who I suspect may have bluffed me earlier and whom I doubt is aware enough to know what odds he would be giving me to call.

If you guys bet 15 on the river do you really fold to a raise against a 65 vpip? If we bet 10 or less aren't we asking to get raised and therefore have to call?

On the other hand if he has something like 86 or Q8 he is most likely not raising my lead, but since he's such a donkish player there's a chance he could raise those for value, and it would be a disaster if I folded.

In the end I guess one of my leaks in an inability to fold hands like this on the river to weak players.

[traz]

I would've blocked the river. As played I fold

[Heine]

When I hit that Ace on the turn, I'm doing everything in my power to get it in on the river. Looks like you've got a decent chance at that. To me these Droolers love to pot the river when checked too, and they are usually marginal holdings. I'd say raise, get it all in. Unless you have an awesome read saying that his PSB are very very strong hands i might consider calling.

But seriously, these guys play so many pots b/c everyone folds to later agression, and they get money by taking advantage of weakness.

Do not fold this hand ever ever ever against this villain and these stack sizes.

[Heine]

Also, Your steal rate should go way up against this guy when he's in the SB, because you'll have position on him. you basically want to play a lot of hands against him when you have position.

On that same note, play a little tighter when he's going to call a lot of hands preflop, i.e. don't raise Ax offsuit.

So maybe like five days ago I had a similar hand against a drooler like this.

I have A2s in position on the btn. We are 150bb deep. He calls in the CO, i iso raise him.

Flop comes A72.
I bet pot, he calls.

Turn comes 10. He checks I over bet by 10 bucks. He calls.

River is a 6. I bet near pot, He min raises.

This tells me he has a strong hand, but I have two pair, and his two pair range, is way behind my two pair range. (i.e. he's got to have an ace with somehting). When they play sooo many more hands they catch crappy hands making worse two pairs.

The point of the hand is, think what he could have, what he could have slow played, assign a range, and valuebet or call based on odds. So this guy could have 86, q6, q8, q3, 36, 83, etc. We have a tremendous amount of his range killed. We should be value betting, and trying to get money in the pot.

The runner runner clubs shouldn't change that. Bet and get money in the pot for value.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
I would've blocked the river. As played I fold

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf - why would you fold this?

[Heine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would've blocked the river. As played I fold

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf - why would you fold this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know!!!!! Reading the responses to the post is troubling given the read on villain!

[Ricky_Bobby]

thanks for responses. Results:

<font color="white"> villian had Q8o </font>

[traz]

What are you beating that c/c, c/c and then pots the river? I mean, villain had Q8, but that's not really the point. Put villain on a range and tell me if you're getting 2:1 on that.

This is why blocking the river is like 10x better then c/c

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you beating that c/c, c/c and then pots the river? I mean, villain had Q8, but that's not really the point. Put villain on a range and tell me if you're getting 2:1 on that.

This is why blocking the river is like 10x better then c/c

[/ QUOTE ]
the guy is 65/24. To me his play seems exactly like two pair (OP please don't give results next time). I also don't like c/c, but it's b/c i like bet/call better.

[Ricky_Bobby]

I don't know 45, 79, 75, 74, 67, 78, 9T, 42, Q8, 86, 63. I agree leading is better but I didn't want to pick a line where folding would be part of the equation. This is mainly because I know I won't fold if I lead and he raises, but at the time I never really thought about folding. I think b/c&gt;c/c&gt;b/f.

I put results because I figured the thread would die soon, sorry.

[Ricky_Bobby]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you beating that c/c, c/c and then pots the river? I mean, villain had Q8, but that's not really the point. Put villain on a range and tell me if you're getting 2:1 on that.

This is why blocking the river is like 10x better then c/c

[/ QUOTE ]
the guy is 65/24. To me his play seems exactly like two pair (OP please don't give results next time). I also don't like c/c, but it's b/c i like bet/call better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, isn't his play more consistent with a draw than 2 pair?

I would expect a raise from 2 pair on the flop. If he had aces up I would definitely expect a raise on the turn. His hand sure looked a lot more like 1 pair (likely)/draw(likely)/slow played set(unlikely I think). I still have all 1 pair hands beat, the only 2 pair that makes sense is rivered queens up, and all the draws missed, except backdoor clubs. 1 pair hands probably fold at this point, and draws definitely do if I make a decent sized river bet.

The more I think about it I don't know what hand can call a river bet if we lead, and at least now he has a chance to bluff.

[Movelong]

Wat scares u now man? a flush or a set?
u said "The guy is 65/26/1 only previous hand he check raised me when I had 99 on an 8 high board and I folded"
He just saw yr weakness and doing it to u again. IMO,check/call this guy is the way to see how he was acting and seeing his weakness.And this type of playing make him wonder if i slowlaying or not? if u could see his cards on river,Then u know how to get him busted on the next hands. So wat i want here is watching him play the game rather than he watching me play the game. Now ur on the top man:)

[sightless]

vs 65/26/1 I am betting the river for value and call any raises which he makes