Rigged: KK and an Ace flops -- line check

[Disconnected]

Less than 20 hands on villain, and nothing noteworthy.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $70.15
Hero (BB): $71.70
UTG: $47.00
MP: $35.90
CO: $28.75
BTN: $51.05

Preflop: Hero is dealt K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $1.50</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.50</font>, CO calls $3.00

Flop: ($9.25) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6.50</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $13.00</font>, <font color="blue"> Hero... </font>

[Spurious]

I think you should fold here. He got an A.

[xeanatic]

prob c/c flop, and fold to a turnbet

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Fold. He usually has something like AQ here. I also wouldn't rule out a set. Either way you are beat. It sucks to let KK go, but you really have to here.

[TIGERsrm]

Yeah just let it go against an unknown, if hes making a move then good for him but people rarely mess around in Reraised pots at micro-stakes.

[TIGERsrm]

[ QUOTE ]
prob c/c flop, and fold to a turnbet

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this line is best, your basically bluffing when you bet that flop, much better to try and induce a bluff or a call on a later street from worse hands. c/c costs the same as b/f so you lose no more when behind.

[XHitman014]

[ QUOTE ]
prob c/c flop, and fold to a turnbet

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? So you just assume villian as an Ace? Even a bad villian will toss out a bet when he senses weakness.

Okay, you c/c a flop bet, the villian check behinds the turn, then you do what on the river?

C-betting this flop makes life so much easier.

[orig!naL]

I don't agree with C/F flop. I would MUCH rather c-bet, c/f the turn. By C/F the flop you are making it much to easy to get bluffed off. Also Villain will easily be able to take you off AK/AA as you would obviously bet that flop with either of those holdings.

As played, easy fold to his flop raise.

[TIGERsrm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
prob c/c flop, and fold to a turnbet

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? So you just assume villian as an Ace? Even a bad villian will toss out a bet when he senses weakness.

Okay, you c/c a flop bet, the villian check behinds the turn, then you do what on the river?

C-betting this flop makes life so much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

The huge majority of villians are shutting down without at least an ace.

True betting can let you know where you stand by folding out everything worse and getting called/raised by better, but where is the value in that? And I thought poker was about making the most profitable decisions and not just making life easier.

I can't tell you how many times ive got value from KK on Ace high boards by inducing bluffs or "value bets" from weaker hands. Obviously this play is more effective with position though.

[corsakh]

Betting this flop is pretty bad.

[TIGERsrm]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with C/F flop. I would MUCH rather c-bet, c/f the turn. By C/F the flop you are making it much to easy to get bluffed off. Also Villain will easily be able to take you off AK/AA as you would obviously bet that flop with either of those holdings.

As played, easy fold to his flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said to c/f the flop.

[xeanatic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
prob c/c flop, and fold to a turnbet

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? So you just assume villian as an Ace? Even a bad villian will toss out a bet when he senses weakness.

Okay, you c/c a flop bet, the villian check behinds the turn, then you do what on the river?

C-betting this flop makes life so much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably call a smallish bet but doubt villian will bet the river when he checked the turn.

[XHitman014]

My default line on all 3-bet pots is to Cbet (unless it's a very wet flop). In this case, I see the merits of c/c-ing the flop against they typical villian. Against an aggressive villian though, if you c/c the flop, and check the turn, they'll bet everytime and take the pot away from you regardless if they have an ace or not.

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
My default line on all 3-bet pots is to Cbet (unless it's a very wet flop).

[/ QUOTE ]

you should reconsider this, esp oop

[XHitman014]

I think it's a pretty good default...obviously there are range considerations being taken also, but generally speaking, unless the board completely missed your range and hit villians, betting is always better than checking. I'm starting to see why people are noticing the board getting more passive.

[AZplaya]

Raise more pre IMO - I really hate betting here, I like check call something reasonable. FWIW I also check call quite abit w AK/AQ as well here.

[Mr.Plough]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a pretty good default...obviously there are range considerations being taken also, but generally speaking, unless the board completely missed your range and hit villians, betting is always better than checking. I'm starting to see why people are noticing the board getting more passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can never assign a villain a range narrow enough to assume it completely missed it. 88/99/TT/JJ/QQ are all in his range, as are AK/AQ and a range of others. By leading the flop your missing alot of value from the hands you beat and paying off the hands your behind to. simple as that.

Just auto cbetting because you were the last pf raiser as a matter of principle is a leak.

[Quester]

I don't see how c-betting this is bad. Villain may certainly call our c-bet with hands that we beat (88-QQ, two diamonds, etc), and we can get away from it if he resists. If we check, he may pop us with any of his holdings, so we may be giving up too easily. If we check/call, we've put money into the pot with a marginal hand and no indication of where we stand, only to face a (potentially) much bigger bet on the turn. Check/fold is too MUBSy. I don't see why bet/fold is so bad.

[Disconnected]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting this flop is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was definitely wondering about this. Do you agree with the c/c flop, c/f turn that some folks have proposed?

It seems to me that if we call a flop bet, we're kind of committed to the pot because we're not that likely to be in worse shape on the turn, and the pot will be pretty big compared to the stacks left.

I bet in part because I didn't want to make a big mistake on the turn, and if I happened to take down the pot with my c-bet, I'm OK with it, as I don't know villain well enough to guess at whether I can induce a bluff by checking. Not saying that's the best way to approach the hand, just what I was thinking.

[Disconnected]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. He usually has something like AQ here. I also wouldn't rule out a set. Either way you are beat. It sucks to let KK go, but you really have to here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree, and I did fold, but I thought maybe it was too weak with the decent odds I was getting. I think that's one reason to make the initial bet, that it's going to be tough for villain to raise without something that beats me, so my plan was to fold to a raise when I made the beet.

[Disconnected]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise more pre IMO - I really hate betting here, I like check call something reasonable. FWIW I also check call quite abit w AK/AQ as well here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you make your raise? I bet pot, which is my default 3-bet. I'm out of position, so I could raise to more, but I think it's OK. And yeah, I agree with check/calling more with hands I hit as well.

[AZplaya]

my standard at $50 is $6.50 - $7.00, and especially here because a bigger raise puts more pressure on his stack and is more likely to induce a push from a shorter stacked player.

[traz]

I probably c/c flop. I definitely fold to this raise

[Disconnected]

Thanks. A number of folks have said c/c the flop. OK, let's say villain bets $6. That leaves him with a little less than a pot-sized bet behind. If he pushes the turn (or river), do you call or fold?