NL25: Flop nuts heads up, river makes second nuts.. fold ever?

[bknollenberg]

Villain is 21.2/16.7/1.4 after 156 hands. He raises anytime it folds around to him in the SB and I have been outplaying him on several flops with garb and made a few hands in this spot, hence the playing of the 10 8.

Do you ever fold here? Did I play it incorrectly? Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

Villain (SB): $50.20
Hero (BB): $56.95
UTG: $9.20
BTN: $23.65

Preflop: Hero is dealt http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Td.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/8c.gif (4 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">Villain raises to $0.75</font>, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.50) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/7d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/9s.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Js.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Villain bets $1.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, Villain calls $1.00

Turn: ($5.50) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/7d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/9s.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Js.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/6c.gif (2 Players)
Villain checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $3.00</font>, Villain calls $3.00

River: ($11.50) http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/7d.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/9s.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Js.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/6c.gif http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/cards/color/Kc.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Villain bets $7.50</font>, Hero calls $7.50

Pot Size: $26.50 ($1.30 Rake)

[Mugatu669]

What are you doing? Why di you minraise the flop? Why did you bet so little on the turn? Why did you just call the river? What's going on?

[bknollenberg]

I think the answer to all of those questions is I didn't want to push him out of the hand (looking at it objectively, I should have been betting harder ldo). I just called the river because when he made that bet I could think of only two logical hands for him to have: KJ or Q10. I put him on the Q10 though.

I was very close to folding the river, which I guess is my main question. Can you ever fold this?

However, I had forgotten my betting on this hand. If you had to play it out, what would your bet sizes be? Say $4 on flop, pot on turn? Is that too much?

[11t]

The question here is not in whether or not you should call the river but in how you played the hand itself.

With 200xbb the call with position preflop is fine.

However, your min raise on the flop is pointless; you are neither trapping nor extracting value. Raise an amount to not give your opponents odds to draw on your hand.

I would prefer to raise it to 4 or 5 dollars on the flop.

Then if he calls and checks the turn you bet the pot again.

[SkeetyMcdoogle]

Why call the raise with T8o if you'r considering folding the second nuts? Do you only get your stack in when you flop TTT?

Don't minraise the flop, you know that. People at NL25 are gonna call all day anyway, so raise flop properly to $3.5 or $4. I'm betting 4.50 on the turn to:
A) build a pot
b) price out draws

Get it in on the river, you have a terrible case of "monsters under the bed" syndrome if you are putting him on exactly one hand, the nuts.

[bknollenberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Why call the raise with T8o if you'r considering folding the second nuts? Do you only get your stack in when you flop TTT?

Don't minraise the flop, you know that. People at NL25 are gonna call all day anyway, so raise flop properly to $3.5 or $4. I'm betting 4.50 on the turn to:
A) build a pot
b) price out draws

Get it in on the river, you have a terrible case of "monsters under the bed" syndrome if you are putting him on exactly one hand, the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain bets $7.50
bknollenberg has 15 seconds left to act
bknollenberg: omgwtfbbq this may be way too sick
bknollenberg calls $7.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villain shows [Tc Qs] a straight, King high
bknollenberg mucks
Villain wins the pot ($25.20) with a straight, King high
bknollenberg: jfc
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $26.50 | Rake $1.30
Board: [7d 9s Js 6c Kc]
Seat 1: Villain (small blind) showed [Tc Qs] and won ($25.20) with a straight, King high
Seat 2: bknollenberg (big blind) mucked [Td 8c] - a straight, Jack high

[Kasane]

mr on flop -- super

small bet on still drawy turn 200bb deep with the current nuts -- super

Hm, I need a sarcasm font.

Man, bet more everywhere. River, IDK, if there was more in there already I could see a flat call. As is, I think I raise it to like $20.

[11t]

Blame yourself, you misplayed the hand

[Mugatu669]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why call the raise with T8o if you'r considering folding the second nuts? Do you only get your stack in when you flop TTT?

Don't minraise the flop, you know that. People at NL25 are gonna call all day anyway, so raise flop properly to $3.5 or $4. I'm betting 4.50 on the turn to:
A) build a pot
b) price out draws

Get it in on the river, you have a terrible case of "monsters under the bed" syndrome if you are putting him on exactly one hand, the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain bets $7.50
bknollenberg has 15 seconds left to act
bknollenberg: omgwtfbbq this may be way too sick
bknollenberg calls $7.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villain shows [Tc Qs] a straight, King high
bknollenberg mucks
Villain wins the pot ($25.20) with a straight, King high
bknollenberg: jfc
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $26.50 | Rake $1.30
Board: [7d 9s Js 6c Kc]
Seat 1: Villain (small blind) showed [Tc Qs] and won ($25.20) with a straight, King high
Seat 2: bknollenberg (big blind) mucked [Td 8c] - a straight, Jack high

[/ QUOTE ]
You might be the best hand-reader of all time dude. I agree, when villain bets into you on the river after that action, it is often the nuts, but there is no way you're folding that and this may not have happened if you played the hand differently.

[bknollenberg]

[ QUOTE ]
mr on flop -- super

small bet on still drawy turn 200bb deep with the current nuts -- super

Hm, I need a sarcasm font.

Man, bet more everywhere. River, IDK, if there was more in there already I could see a flat call. As is, I think I raise it to like $20.

[/ QUOTE ]
My bet sizing is one of my biggest leaks / slow playing. Like I will flop a set with 44 on a 234 board and check (which I guess in some instances is ok, depending on who Villain is), and naturally the turn will be a 5 (in a raised pf pot). I get too concerned with trapping and keeping players in the pot, and way too often I end up giving them their reason to be in the pot.

[KEW]

Flop and turn bet sizes are horrible...200BBs deep you need to make stronger bet if you hope to get villains stack in the middle...200BBs deep why are you playing around???? Weak betting this deep is a HUGE LEAK..You should not be trying to get a small extra bet here BUT your goal NEEDS to be how can I get villains ENTIRE STACK...

As for the river the debate is not CALL or fold it's should we raise or just call...Based on the weak betting previous in the hand a lean slightly to just calling BUT I could not fault a "value" raise..

[bknollenberg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why call the raise with T8o if you'r considering folding the second nuts? Do you only get your stack in when you flop TTT?

Don't minraise the flop, you know that. People at NL25 are gonna call all day anyway, so raise flop properly to $3.5 or $4. I'm betting 4.50 on the turn to:
A) build a pot
b) price out draws

Get it in on the river, you have a terrible case of "monsters under the bed" syndrome if you are putting him on exactly one hand, the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain bets $7.50
bknollenberg has 15 seconds left to act
bknollenberg: omgwtfbbq this may be way too sick
bknollenberg calls $7.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villain shows [Tc Qs] a straight, King high
bknollenberg mucks
Villain wins the pot ($25.20) with a straight, King high
bknollenberg: jfc
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $26.50 | Rake $1.30
Board: [7d 9s Js 6c Kc]
Seat 1: Villain (small blind) showed [Tc Qs] and won ($25.20) with a straight, King high
Seat 2: bknollenberg (big blind) mucked [Td 8c] - a straight, Jack high

[/ QUOTE ]
You might be the best hand-reader of all time dude. I agree, when villain bets into you on the river after that action, it is often the nuts, but there is no way you're folding that and this may not have happened if you played the hand differently.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm the only one that can answer the question of whether you can ever fold here, because the answer is obviously yes. I knew I was beat, given my experience with Villain. But it is indeed my own fault.

So anyone think anything else different other than raising to 4-5ish on flop, pot on turn, then if it gets to the river make an easier call (and lose everything, lol)?

[11t]

If you are always aggressive with mediocre hands and always passing/trapping with good hands you are extremely exploitable

[bknollenberg]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are always aggressive with mediocre hands and always passing/trapping with good hands you are extremely exploitable

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not the case, it's not consistent, it just depends on the situation. Obviously flopping the nuts is a situation where I don't protect my hand enough when it's draw heavy. But I'll flop 10 2 3 with 10 10 and lead out, etc. So that's not a concern. I think it's just getting over the "omg I can't force him off whatever he has gimme ur moniez!!1" and betting my hand strong.

[CCCP]

This looks exactly like a hand I tend to get myself involved in. I am glad you posted this, because it's something I need to improve on, and am glad I am not the only one in this situation.

In situations like this, I try to milk it, and then get frustrated when I lose on the river.

[11t]

There is a balance between betting for value and betting for protection.

Bet enough so that he doesn't have odds to call but not so much that he folds. Donkey's are more than willing to call bets that give them incorrect odds.

Play good poker and let other players make mistakes and relieve them of their money.

[SkeetyMcdoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why call the raise with T8o if you'r considering folding the second nuts? Do you only get your stack in when you flop TTT?

Don't minraise the flop, you know that. People at NL25 are gonna call all day anyway, so raise flop properly to $3.5 or $4. I'm betting 4.50 on the turn to:
A) build a pot
b) price out draws

Get it in on the river, you have a terrible case of "monsters under the bed" syndrome if you are putting him on exactly one hand, the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain bets $7.50
bknollenberg has 15 seconds left to act
bknollenberg: omgwtfbbq this may be way too sick
bknollenberg calls $7.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villain shows [Tc Qs] a straight, King high
bknollenberg mucks
Villain wins the pot ($25.20) with a straight, King high
bknollenberg: jfc
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $26.50 | Rake $1.30
Board: [7d 9s Js 6c Kc]
Seat 1: Villain (small blind) showed [Tc Qs] and won ($25.20) with a straight, King high
Seat 2: bknollenberg (big blind) mucked [Td 8c] - a straight, Jack high

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible response to my post. Are you always this results oriented?