i always lose a huge pot in thishandsoijustkindagaveuponbettingtheturn

[jerryf1914]

villian is 49/11/1.94 am i really supposed to call the river and expect to win?

Ultimate Bet - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $5.28
BB: $5.23
UTG: $14.01
MP: $4.21
Hero (CO): $9.43
BTN: $3.93

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 Players)
UTG calls $0.10, MP folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.50</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.90</font>, UTG calls $0.90

Turn: ($2.95) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.95) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $2.95</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $2.95 returned to UTG

Pot Size: $2.95 ($0.14 Rake)

[KEW]

After checking the turn you MUST call the river...Bet/fold the turn is also a good opyion...

[C4LL4W4Y]

after the flop i put villain on draws and weaker made hands...which is why i don't understand checking behind the turn.

[Zues]

I like to fire again for about $2.50 here on the turn. The river I almost always call here against this guy. We are almost always ahead of his range.

[Snafu'd]

It's a little picky but I'd bet at least $1 and probably $1.15 on the flop because there are quite a few hands that will want to see a turn card. Bet the turn. As played, call the river.

[hennnerz]

$250 is a little OTT here imo.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
After checking the turn you MUST call the river...Bet/fold the turn is also a good opyion...

[/ QUOTE ]

how the hell can you bet say around 2.5 on the turn and then fold?? i'm committed if i bet the turn

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a little picky but I'd bet at least $1 and probably $1.15 on the flop because there are quite a few hands that will want to see a turn card. Bet the turn. As played, call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I don't think checking the turn is a good idea here. He could very well be on the flush draw or have something like J10 and you're still good. You don't want to give any free cards here.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After checking the turn you MUST call the river...Bet/fold the turn is also a good opyion...

[/ QUOTE ]

how the hell can you bet say around 2.5 on the turn and then fold?? i'm committed if i bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to committed..If you get C/Red you are beat 100% of the time..

[Zues]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After checking the turn you MUST call the river...Bet/fold the turn is also a good opyion...

[/ QUOTE ]

how the hell can you bet say around 2.5 on the turn and then fold?? i'm committed if i bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to committed..If you get C/Red you are beat 100% of the time..

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, you can use the baluga.

[Lego05]

Bet the turn. $2 will be fine. Fold if he check raises.

As played call river.

[Zues]

Why wouldn't we bet the turn QJ is unlikey.

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't we bet the turn QJ is unlikey.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about 67,k8,k9,910,98,108,k10, 88,99,1010,kk...did i miss any?

[shoxbb6]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't we bet the turn QJ is unlikey.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about 67,k8,k9,910,98,108,k10, 88,99,1010,kk...did i miss any?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, he never has hearts, a float, mid pair, or any hand you beat ever. Just fold turn after he checks.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't we bet the turn QJ is unlikey.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about 67,k8,k9,910,98,108,k10, 88,99,1010,kk...did i miss any?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess you should've just open folded when checked to on the turn....

[Zues]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't we bet the turn QJ is unlikey.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about 67,k8,k9,910,98,108,k10, 88,99,1010,kk...did i miss any?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, he never has hearts, a float, mid pair, or any hand you beat ever. Just fold turn after he checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't we bet the turn QJ is unlikey.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about 67,k8,k9,910,98,108,k10, 88,99,1010,kk...did i miss any?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess you should've just open folded when checked to on the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

i must run worse than you /shrug

[Sean Fraley]

The turn is where you need to decide if you will call a reasonably sized river bet (decent in this hand being PSB or less) and the answer lies in why you were checking the turn.

I assume that you were checking to control the size of the pot and therefore get to showdown cheaply or to induce a bluff. Then you have to call this bet to both catch possible bluffs now (and a bluff is a possibility) and to discourage future bluffs from opponents. While it may take some getting used to, remember that you only have to showdown the best hand 33% of the time to break even here. Admittedly it's weird to realize that you are actually making a profit when you lose the majority of the time that you call here, but you have to get used to it.

[spkid]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is where you need to decide if you will call a reasonably sized river bet (decent in this hand being PSB or less) and the answer lies in why you were checking the turn.

I assume that you were checking to control the size of the pot and therefore get to showdown cheaply or to induce a bluff. Then you have to call this bet to both catch possible bluffs now (and a bluff is a possibility) and to discourage future bluffs from opponents. While it may take some getting used to, remember that you only have to showdown the best hand 33% of the time to break even here. Admittedly it's weird to realize that you are actually making a profit when you lose the majority of the time that you call here, but you have to get used to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I don't mind checking the turn here for pot control since a check raise on the turn could blow you out of this hand.

It's really a decision to either try to protect a hand that may still be ahead or to control the pot. With only one pair and a very scary board I like pot control here.

Once you decide to control the pot, though, you have to call the river or your going to get floated in the future by the villain and who ever else is paying attention. Then you really won't be able to play your one pair hands effectively.

Also, best title for a post that I've seen yet. Almost got the whole post in the subject line.

[11t]

Bet turn

As played call the river

[jerryf1914]

guys this is why i don't win when i raise non premium hands. it [censored] does not work to bet 2 streets into these people i'm just [censored] throwing away my money

Ultimate Bet - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $1.60
BB: $11.70
UTG: $12.73
CO: $2.56
Hero (BTN): $8.58

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, CO calls $0.10, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.50</font>, SB folds, BB calls $0.40, CO folds

Flop: ($1.15) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.60</font>, BB calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.35) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $1.80</font>, BB calls $1.80

River: ($5.95) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $5.95</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $5.95 returned to BB

Pot Size: $5.95 ($0.29 Rake)

and don't tell me my bet sizing is the problem because you know thats [censored] [censored]

[WarhammerIIC]

[ QUOTE ]
guys this is why i don't win when i raise non premium hands. it [censored] does not work to bet 2 streets into these people i'm just [censored] throwing away my money

Ultimate Bet - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $1.60
BB: $11.70
UTG: $12.73
CO: $2.56
Hero (BTN): $8.58

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, CO calls $0.10, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.50</font>, SB folds, BB calls $0.40, CO folds

Flop: ($1.15) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.60</font>, BB calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.35) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $1.80</font>, BB calls $1.80

River: ($5.95) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $5.95</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $5.95 returned to BB

Pot Size: $5.95 ($0.29 Rake)

and don't tell me my bet sizing is the problem because you know thats [censored] [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get why you fold on the river here. What do you think he could have? Probably AT-A7 or a busted flush draw.

[ama0330]

Your bet sizing is the problem.



...



Your opponents are putting you on a hand and then taking you off it. One of the reasons is your insanely weak betting i.e. betting $1.80 on that turn card.

Anyway on the first hand you need to bet the flop bigger and bet the turn also. In the second hand bet the flop MORE like at least $1 and I also bet the turn. I can consider a river call but I'd probably just fold in this case.

You play very weak, scared poker and you are too easy to push around. You need to alter this attitude and learn to be aggressive or you have no future in poker. Also you need to work on your attitude because it seems to me like you have no confidence and you sound like you are tilting.

[LT22]

I lol'ed if u think this is a HUGE pot

[Lego05]

That's a largish medium pot.

And, Ama, I think that 1.8 on the turn there is fine. That's about 75% of pot. The flop should have been bet a bunch more though so then the turn bet shoulda been bigger after that. However, I think he needs to call the river there.....especially with the 6's paired on the board.

[Sean Fraley]

Your main issue on the second hand is making a decision about pot commitment.

On the turn the pot size has pushed over just over 1/4 the size of your remaining stack, which means that any decent size bet puts over 1/3 of your stack in the pot and makes a turn raise or river PSB from villain a decision for all of your chips. At the beginning of the turn you need to decide if you are ahead most of the hands that villain would get all-in by showdown or if you are more likely the underdog in that situation. If you feel you would be ahead, then do exactly what you did and be completely willing to get it all-in by showdown come what may. If you feel you are behind, check behind to keep the pot small enough to call a PSB from villain, or check behind if he checks to you.

As a point of note, Professional No Limit Hold 'Em focuses heavily on exactly these kind of situations and does a really good job teaching you how they crop up and how to know already have a plan for them by the time they get there.

[wingchunflush]

this is the same book that tells you to bet more with your big hands so you can get more into the pot on later streets which i think is stupid and transparent

[jerryf1914]

[ QUOTE ]
Your main issue on the second hand is making a decision about pot commitment.

On the turn the pot size has pushed over just over 1/4 the size of your remaining stack, which means that any decent size bet puts over 1/3 of your stack in the pot and makes a turn raise or river PSB from villain a decision for all of your chips. At the beginning of the turn you need to decide if you are ahead most of the hands that villain would get all-in by showdown or if you are more likely the underdog in that situation. If you feel you would be ahead, then do exactly what you did and be completely willing to get it all-in by showdown come what may. If you feel you are behind, check behind to keep the pot small enough to call a PSB from villain, or check behind if he checks to you.

As a point of note, Professional No Limit Hold 'Em focuses heavily on exactly these kind of situations and does a really good job teaching you how they crop up and how to know already have a plan for them by the time they get there.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're saying i should never even consider folding this hand???

[Movelong]

have to bet on the turn then u will get check behind on river. ITs cheaper /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your main issue on the second hand is making a decision about pot commitment.

On the turn the pot size has pushed over just over 1/4 the size of your remaining stack, which means that any decent size bet puts over 1/3 of your stack in the pot and makes a turn raise or river PSB from villain a decision for all of your chips. At the beginning of the turn you need to decide if you are ahead most of the hands that villain would get all-in by showdown or if you are more likely the underdog in that situation. If you feel you would be ahead, then do exactly what you did and be completely willing to get it all-in by showdown come what may. If you feel you are behind, check behind to keep the pot small enough to call a PSB from villain, or check behind if he checks to you.

As a point of note, Professional No Limit Hold 'Em focuses heavily on exactly these kind of situations and does a really good job teaching you how they crop up and how to know already have a plan for them by the time they get there.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're saying i should never even consider folding this hand???

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I never said this. What I did say was that at the point in the hand where the smallest stack is at or close enough to 4 times the size of the pot make a decision as to whether or not this hand is good enough to get all-in with when compared against the range of hands that you believe your opponent will get all-in with. If think it is, then you are committed and have no problem facing aggression from villain. If not, then you want to play a small pot and will fold if it looks like you can't keep the pot small.

In this hand the smallest stack is about 8 times the pot size on the flop, and you really can't be sure that top pair 3rd kicker will be good against a villain who will call a big bet on the flop, turn, and river. In this case the best option is to keep the pot small or fold if you can't do that. Your best option would have been to check behind on the turn and call up to a pot size bet from villain on the river.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
this is the same book that tells you to bet more with your big hands so you can get more into the pot on later streets which i think is stupid and transparent

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Have you read the book?

2) Have you tried what they suggest yet?

I've done both and the I've noticed the following:

1) You often do this anyway when you raise 4BB+1BB per limper. The only difference is that you will now open sometimes for larger raises, or make smaller raises than you would with limpers in the pot.

2) You are basing the size of your raise against the stack sizes of the opponents that you believe will be calling. This makes the size of your raises from hand to hand fluctuate constantly and provides a rather decent amount of randomization if viewed from you opponents perspective.

I strongly suggest that you read the book and have all of the information in context before discounting advice from players who A) play and win at much bigger games than you or I and B) were considered reliable and knowledgeable enough that the most reputable publisher of gambling books in the world saw fit to offer them a book deal.

[maciczka]

that line makes absolutely no sense for me, I didn't read the disscusion above, but for god sake, bet turn and bet river. Why do You check behind his draw? You think he has a 9? BET THE TURN! I would also bet more on the flop as it's DRAWY and You make him do bigger mistakes by calling.

[Lego05]

I'm not sure which hand Sean is talking about, but I completely disagree as you should be betting the turn in both of these hands. And if he calls and checks river then checking behind is probably best especially in hand 2 with the AJ.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
guys this is why i don't win when i raise non premium hands. it [censored] does not work to bet 2 streets into these people i'm just [censored] throwing away my money


[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know why I'm trying to help you so much. But this line I think examplifies why you won't succeed how you want to unless you change your attitude. You need to understand variance. Your entire 10K sample means just about nothing. This 1 AJ hand means absolutely nothing. If you run this hand over and over and over again many times you will make a significant amount of money by putting in a good flop bet and then a good turn bet. (If the board were less drawy I would go ahead and argue for a turn check behind then a call if he bets river or a valuebet if he checks river.) You are trying to maximize wins and minimize losses and on a drawy board like this you do that by betting this turn. And btw your bet sizes often do suck so don't say that they don't mean anything because they do....it definitely costs you money.

You are playing what? like an 18/6 game? Probably like 98% of the biggest winners in this forum and the small stakes forum and I'd think probably the mid-stakes forum play somewhere between a 16/12 - 21.5/18 game. Though as you move higher and higher up more players get closer to the 21.5/18. And when you get really high you find the absolute best players in the world playing just a ridculous LAG game that would make you sick....it mystifies me looking at the numbers that people attribute to them.


You seek out advice and I think you really need to take it. Read the stickies in here and in small stakes specifically pokey on blind stealing and dbitel on taking blind stealing to the next level. I think those hands may help fix and ramp up your aggression pre-flop versus the passive pre-flop game you seem to play now.

Sorry, but I see you posting over and over and over again and while I see you getting slightly better you could have gotten so much better already and you're still making the same mistakes that I've seen you make in post after post despite getting pretty decent to good to great advice in many a thread.


I'm not dumping on you...I am legitimately trying to help. It really wasn't long ago that I was a 1.8PTBB/100 hand winner at 50 NL and was slightly discouraged. But just a few months and 200,000 hands later and I'm at ~5.7PTBB/100 hands over my past ~72,000 hands. If you do the reading and work at it and take the advice given to you in your hand posts and really try it and try to post in other perople's hands and listen and ask questions and work with pokerstove a bit and focus on thinking about opponent's ranges based on the action on each street and the best move for your hand vs. that range: if you do all that you can get better and you can become a big winner and move up in levels.



Good luck. I will continue to post in your hand threads when I am available and give you advice to the best of my ability....hopefully plus everything else it's enough. Good luck at the tables (until you get to mine /images/graemlins/wink.gif).

[jerryf1914]

here again is a similar situation. this river seemed like a must call if there ever was one.

Ultimate Bet - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $15.53
BB: $17.74
UTG: $9.28
MP: $14.70
CO: $7.52
Hero (BTN): $9.35

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.40</font>, SB folds, BB calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.85) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.80</font>, BB calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.45) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.45) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $2.45</font>, Hero calls $2.45

Pot Size: $7.35 ($0.36 Rake)

BB had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (flush, ace high) and WON (+$2.35)
Hero had J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif and LOST (-$3.65)