Working on your game (Long, with graphs!!)

[kom]

I decided to post what is most of my 50nl "career" because I thought it might be useful for some players. First we begin with my first ~150k hands which can only be described as mediocre.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3585/beforejp7.png

As you can see I was pretty much the typical "tagfish". I was tight preflop, vaguely aware of position, knew how to c-bet etc but still had some pretty big holes in my game.

So I signed up for cardrunners, spent alot of time reading posts across unl-HSNL, got some coaching and did some sweat sessions with friends.

The results are my last ~100k hands...

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5212/julaugstatsca4.png

I think the things I learned in the second batch of hands are:

1. Turn aggression is important. Alot of players have gotten flop aggression down, ie c-betting, check raising flush draws etc, but alot of uNl players are not aggressive enough on the turn. Looking at the two stats samples you can see in the 2nd one my turn aggression is signifcantly higher and I think that has been one of my biggest improvements. Work on identifying profitable places to fire again on the turn (Scare cards against habitual floaters etc) and it will pay dividends.

2. Showdown Comparing the 2nd sample to the first you can see that i went to showdown less and won more often when I got there. Look to make river folds!! Too many times I used to make alot of very bad, "meh, whatever pot odds" calls on the river when it was obviously -EV. Working on stopping this has brought my showdown numbers into the range which I think is about right for a taggy style.

3- Table image Be aware of your image at the table! My defualt is to c-bet ~100% of the time and look to aggressively take down pots with or without a hand. If early in a session I showdown premium hands and establish a tight image then this becomes very successful as I can abuse this image to steal and rob lots of small-medium pots. However, I never used to adjust my play if my image wasn't so great. If you have been caught stealing with trash/double-barrelling with air etc, then ADJUST!! Tighten up a bit from late position, c-bet less and wait for a good spot to use your bad image to get paid off. One good tip here is to include your net $won/lost in your HUD. I find it can be a decent indicator of how you are viewed by the table.

4- Variance In the brew etc people are always moaning about tiny swings over tiny samples. Man up and play the hands and don't talk about variance until you've played at least 50-100k hands, and even then probably don't talk about it. The one thing I will say is it is quite obvious that the 2nd graph has far less variance than the first due to the significantly higher ptbb/100. Although even with a >6 winrate I still experienced a ~13 buy in downswing while playing my A game.


In conclusion, whilst I still have alot to learn I feel I've at least grasped the fundamentals of playing good ABC tag poker. Those of you struggling as breakeven/small winners like I was, take heart. You are on the right track and with some small adjustments you can join me in beating the uNL games at a good clip and getting ready to take shots at the higher games.

[Dave Coulier]

Very good post. I enjoyed reading it.

[MusashiStyle]

wow very interesting
i will read this again

[Heine]

Good points on turn aggression and river analysis.

Great post.

[Panic__NL]

great post, TY!

[nukewell]

great post

you play a lot

move up

i hope u have rakeback

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


also i think your showdown info is really
important because the bets are always bigger
(as the pot is bigger)on the river and if u
can make a couple of smart folds instead of
crying calls every session can really have
a big impact on your win/loss amt.

[WillS]

Some good points there. Good post.

[ontiltsoon]

nh sir

[hennnerz]

Move up ffs. I hope you have rakeback too. We can see your sn btw, jic you didn't realise. Nice one though.

[kom]

All hands are on stars so no official rakeback. FPP's at supernova level while 8 tabling 50nl isn't too bad though.

[KCrow]

[ QUOTE ]
nh sir

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that.

[corsakh]

Almost copycat stats /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Lego05]

This is shockingly similar to my history.

First 120K hands or so somewhere around 1.8.

Last 100K hands somewhere around 5.2.


My early TA was very similar to yours also, but mine didn't go as high as yours did...somewhere around 2 I think, a little under actually. My river aggression is higher than yours though. I don't have my database with me, but I think my RA is actually higher than my TA.

And I used to do that same river thing. It was probably a huge leak.


BTW we can see your s/n. Not that it matters to much to me....from playing against you I already kew you were a good player and likely 2+2'er. I generally don't sit with you and if I do only if I have position on you.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
All hands are on stars so no official rakeback. FPP's at supernova level while 8 tabling 50nl isn't too bad though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably better than rakeback at Full Tilt.

[cooker3]

Great post.
Man, what I wouldn't give to have a graph like you 2nd one, it's so nice!

[toddxlogan]

Awesome, awesome post.

Thanks KOM.

[XHitman014]

Turn aggression is probably the area I'm looking on improving most...it's not necessarly poor right now but I am a lot less aggressive on the turn vs. the flop and river (something like 4/2/3). Do you raise a lot on the turn in position or is most of your aggression from continuing to bet out against people that call too much with 2nd best hands?

[hennnerz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All hands are on stars so no official rakeback. FPP's at supernova level while 8 tabling 50nl isn't too bad though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably better than rakeback at Full Tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious?

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All hands are on stars so no official rakeback. FPP's at supernova level while 8 tabling 50nl isn't too bad though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably better than rakeback at Full Tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea....you'd be making probably 600-700FPP's an hour.


I think that that's over 10 bucks an hour. I don't know....how much would you make from FT rakeback.

[MoP_86]

great post

[RichAM]

kom: do you mind doing a video for uNL?

[.xxxx.]

kom, great insight and congrats on the success.

What parts of cardrunners did you find most helpful?
When you were looking for a coach, what in particular led you to the one you chose?
What tweaks to your game hurt your bb/100 and you tried something else(if any)?

[Zues]

You can get to supernova 8 tabling 50nl!?!?

[inverted]

who did you get as a coach? My turn aggression factor is only 1.5 what spots do you look for to be agressive on the turn/flop?

[kom]

[ QUOTE ]
kom, great insight and congrats on the success.

What parts of cardrunners did you find most helpful?

Nothing super-specific. Just seeing how they adjust and react to different types of villians instead of playing the cookie-cutter poker we are all guilty of while multi-tabling.

When you were looking for a coach, what in particular led you to the one you chose?

I'd had some sweat sessions with friends who were around my level but I was looking for some feedback from someone significantly better than me. I applied to 3-bet but had trouble co-ordinating with a US coach for timezone reasons. (I am from Australia.) I ended up getting MSNL poster ArturiusX, a fellow Aussie (not with 3-bet.net). He helped me find some good spots to ramp up my turn aggression. He also had some good tips for 3-bet pots aswell as dealing with light 3-betters.

What tweaks to your game hurt your bb/100 and you tried something else(if any)?
Nothing comes to mind. My game was pretty ordinary so any changes were a good thing

[/ QUOTE ]

[DJSHAD0W]

congrats on your nice second chart and drastic improvement.

Would you care to elaborate a bit on how exactly you increased your turn AF? Did you do that by firing more second barrels against other TAGs, not slowing down with you TPTK type hands when called on the flop ?

How do you adjust to light 3 bettors without spewing yourself?

[Upgrade_U]

I still don't understand how players can have that low AF's, I play 19/17 and my flop/turn/riv AFs are the following : 8/4.4/2.3

in position I c-bet every single flop and raise with my draws etc. , sometimes even raise donkbets which are 1/5 pot ( pretty basic stuff ) and on the turn I bet every A or K if it changed the board ( you obv can't do that on TJQ boards ), I usually check behind w/ TPTK to induce bluffs on the river and for pot control, even if villain hits the free river sometimes he won't get payed off.

Seriously, how in the world do you get that low AF ?

[Upgrade_U]

bringing up the post a bit

also great post OP

[kom]

[ QUOTE ]
kom: do you mind doing a video for uNL?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's something I would def consider. What exactly would you want to see in it?

[orig!naL]

good job. I would like to see a video too. Just play your standard game!

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Man up and play the hands and don't talk about variance until you've played at least 50-100k hands, and even then probably don't talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Man up and play the hands and don't talk about variance until you've played at least 50-100k hands, and even then probably don't talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Man up and play the hands and don't talk about variance until you've played at least 50-100k hands, and even then probably don't talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Man up and play the hands and don't talk about variance until you've played at least 50-100k hands, and even then probably don't talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Man up and play the hands and don't talk about variance until you've played at least 50-100k hands, and even then probably don't talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Man up and play the hands and don't talk about variance until you've played at least 50-100k hands, and even then probably don't talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]



Everyone got that? Very nice post

[LT22]

100k hands will get u within 1-2ptbb/100 of your REAL winrate

like say you win 5bb/100 over 100k hands, u could be a 3 or a 7bb/100 winner

good post and I think people have no clue about variance/sample sizes

[Student Caine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
kom: do you mind doing a video for uNL?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's something I would def consider. What exactly would you want to see in it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say just play your game and talk through your thought process as much as possible when situations arise in the video:

1. How you make your reads on certain villains
2. Your standard lines
3. Speak specifically to Turn Aggro as I think it is something that escapes a lot of us here at uNL
4. etc

Great graph btw and grats on such a vast improvement.

[peacefulpaul]

Thanks for taking the time to make this brilliant post - really inspirational to me as I set out on a µ journey at 25NL

Edit to say that I didn't realise this was my first ever 2+2 post - I thought I'd been lurking so much I must have posted at least once!

[BPMaR]

[ QUOTE ]
All hands are on stars so no official rakeback. FPP's at supernova level while 8 tabling 50nl isn't too bad though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post kom, very motivating.
How many hours a day do you play? In order to win as much as you do 8tabling 50nl

[guitarizt]

This is the best thread I've seen in a long time. I'm 3 ptbb/100 right now and my graph looks a lot like your first one. I'm hoping to get it to look like your second one.

[Rounder101]

Great post. I also had a huge change of my game since joining CardRunners.
Glad to hear that thing of the 13BI downswing.
I was playing incredibly for the last month and managed to increase a lot my roll, but I am currently on an 8 BI downswing and it [censored] sucks.
I always thought that it was impossible to get to a downswing like this one, and that it just happened to bad fishy players, but with you as an example, it seems its just something one has to deal with, and just keep playing ur A game and let the longterm results judge.
Im currently just taking a couple of days off, no playing at all, just to cool down.

I am currently running 18/13/4.7, Do u think the AF is too high??