25nl - turn decision with KQs

[11t]

No real reads.

I think I played the hand pretty standard up to the turn but of course all advice is appreciated.

I am just wondering what exactly to do here.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $8.40
Hero (BB): $23.25
UTG: $6.40
MP: $25.95
CO: $25.00
BTN: $25.35

CO posts $0.25
Preflop: Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="red">MP raises to $1.50</font>, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.25, UTG calls $1.25

Flop: ($4.85) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.00</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $4.00

Turn: ($12.85) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero...

[whyzze]

Reads? Why do you lead flop?

Anyways, you have to bet turn. I feel way ahead here. Bet/fold

[losingdonkey]

generally I will bet the turn out, folding to a raise. leading the flop is good.

[Lego05]

I don't like calling with KQ there pre-flop. I'd probably fold. Very rarely I'd reraise and certainly not without any reads.

As played I'm not entirely sure since I'm never in this situation and I'm not used to it. Were I the pre-flop raiser I'd bet the turn about 8 - 8.5. I think that's what I would do here. And then probably check call a non-spade river.

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
generally I will bet the turn out, folding to a raise. leading the flop is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much? Any decent turn bet is going to take you well past the ocmmitment point.

[11t]

I lead the flop for value and to protect my hand

Do you think I am pot committed if I bet since I have 18 left behind with a 12 dollar pot

[11t]

If I had a read that villain was really tight or it was higher limits I would fold preflop but generally speaking I feel folding KQs at 25nl, even though I am OOP, is a lil weak tight.

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
I lead the flop for value and to protect my hand

Do you think I am pot committed if I bet since I have 18 left behind with a 12 dollar pot

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much actually.

This is why you have to 3bet preflop and why check calling flop is better when you dont.

[WarhammerIIC]

Calling a 6xBB raise with KQs out of position is just asking for trouble.

[stickdude]

What was your plan for the hand when you called the pre-flop raise OOP? Were you willing to commit if you flopped TP2K, which is the most likely flop for that hand? If so, then go ahead and bet $10 or so on the turn and either call a shove or get the rest in on the river.

Personally, I don't know that I'd call a 6xBB raise with that hand OOP. If I did, it would be more hoping to flop a big draw than top pair/no draw.

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
generally speaking I feel folding KQs at 25nl, even though I am OOP, is a lil weak tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's one of those hands where position makes a world of difference - in position, it's an easy call if not a 3-bet, but it's hard to play OOP when you flop top pair, as you did here.

[Vedocorban]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had a read that villain was really tight or it was higher limits I would fold preflop but generally speaking I feel folding KQs at 25nl, even though I am OOP, is a lil weak tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding KQs at 25nl OOP is -solid-. This hand shows exactly why. You hit your most likely hand, top pair, and don't know where you are or how to play the hand. Flopping a draw wouldn't have put you in a much better situation.

None of your options on the turn are pleasant.

[dmoney]

Leading flop is terrible. You are inviting yourself to be put into a world of hurt when he raises you with a plethora of hands. Some bluffs and some monsters as well as a couple that he thinks are best but actually losing to, KT,KJ. Donking into PFR with weak but still possibly best hands are one of uNL players biggest mistakes. Especially such a small bet of 1/2 pot.

c/c flop is best line. Allows him to Cbet bluff more $ to you when ahead and makes it difficult for him to bloat the pot when you're behind.

I find people are way more likely to bluff raise a donk lead then they are to double barrel bluff.

Turn: if you feel he won't Double barrel and he fires another good bet, fold, if you think he's capalbe of double barreling with an underpair or a FD then call OR c/rai on turn.


another potential flop line would be donk lead then 3 bet all in on flop. SUUUUUUPER strong line.

[dmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
What was your plan for the hand when you called the pre-flop raise OOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need a "plan" before anything occurs. Poker is so liquid that having a plan before you get further information is the worst possible thing you could do. Make a "plan" once you have all the available information and not a second before.

[WarhammerIIC]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you need a "plan" before anything occurs.

[/ QUOTE ]
So that situations like this one don't happen.

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
Make a "plan" once you have all the available information and not a second before.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know you're OOP. You know what hand you have. You know that someone with position on you raised. You know how much they raised. You know the effective stack sizes. You know that the most likely hand you're going to flop here is TP2K.

What other information are you waiting for?

Just because you have a post-flop plan doesn't mean that plan is set in stone - you can and should change it depending on the flop and post-flop action. And what's the alternative to having a plan for the hand - winging it?

[dmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you need a "plan" before anything occurs.

[/ QUOTE ]
So that situations like this one don't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't make good logical decisions in mediocrely tough spots, quit now. Or fold every hand that is ever possibly dominated.

This is really easy how this hand should play out.

He calls preflop,
Check calls flop.
Line1: Check calls turn - line2: c/r ai turn.
river Line1a: check call - Line1b: Open shove
river Line2a: there is none, you're already all in.

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really easy how this hand should play out.

He calls preflop,
Check calls flop.
Line1: Check calls turn - line2: c/r ai turn.
river Line1a: check call - Line1b: Open shove
river Line2a: there is none, you're already all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, a plan for the hand... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[dmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Make a "plan" once you have all the available information and not a second before.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know you're OOP. You know what hand you have. You know that someone with position on you raised. You know how much they raised. You know the effective stack sizes. You know that the most likely hand you're going to flop here is TP2K.

What other information are you waiting for?

Just because you have a post-flop plan doesn't mean that plan is set in stone - you can and should change it depending on the flop and post-flop action. And what's the alternative to having a plan for the hand - winging it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well isn't winging it playing poker?

How can you possibly have a plan of "if i flop TP im getting it all in on flop" or "if i flop gutter ball in folding" etc etc. Do you really go into a hand saying "If i flop TP2K i'm donk betting into villain for 1/2 pot." if you do this, you are goign to get abused regularly.

[dmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is really easy how this hand should play out.

He calls preflop,
Check calls flop.
Line1: Check calls turn - line2: c/r ai turn.
river Line1a: check call - Line1b: Open shove
river Line2a: there is none, you're already all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, a plan for the hand... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAH /images/graemlins/grin.gif Touche, although i did have alot more information to make these decisions that OP didn't have before the hand started. so :P

[WarhammerIIC]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't make good logical decisions in mediocrely tough spots, quit now. Or fold every hand that is ever possibly dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]
It has nothing to do with making logical decisions and everything to do with keeping yourself out of very marginal situations when you're out of position. If you instead make a plan before the flop even comes, you'll see that calling preflop is not very good:

Plan 1: Flop TP2K. Have no idea where you stand because you're out of position. Maybe donk-bet, maybe check-call.

Plan 2: Flop a draw. End up having to overplay the draw because you're out of position.

These plans suck, so you just fold preflop and move on to the next hand.

[dmoney]

What do u mean marginal? this is very far from marginal. You have TP2K. Marginal is 2nd pair 6th kicker. facing a river shove by an over aggro opponent. This is soo far from marginal. Do you guys have +EV stats in PT in regards to KQs from BB? I know i do, which means i am playing this hand...and winning more often then not.

[WarhammerIIC]

[ QUOTE ]
What do u mean marginal? this is very far from marginal. You have TP2K. Marginal is 2nd pair 6th kicker. facing a river shove by an over aggro opponent. This is soo far from marginal. Do you guys have +EV stats in PT in regards to KQs from BB? I know i do, which means i am playing this hand...and winning more often then not.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not marginal in terms of whether or not you have the best hand. It's marginal based on the fact that, being out of position, you have put yourself in a situation where you stand to make the minimum and lose the maximum.