50NL QQ multiway on K high flop

[BevillTheDevil]

CO is 62/18/.71 after 60 hands and is an awful callin station. BTN is unknown but i have noticed him/her limpin a few times already. I figured this probably isnt the greatest spot to cbet but i could see an argument for it. But when villian makes a weaksauce <.5 PSB do you just give up the hand or call and look for pot control (which obv more difficult OOP)??

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Hero: $166.40
UTG+1: $50
CO: $62.10
Button: $49.50
SB: $0
BB: $60.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6, 4 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $2.75</font>, Hero ??

[Mr_Pathetic]

I never have played this high but I think I call this for reason that no one has shown strength and he could easily be betting a worse pair like JJ-77. Problem is on turn I don't know what I do.

[Ikaika]

If he's betting in a multiway with a board this dry I think its pretty safe to assume he has at least top pair right? I mean what worse hands are calling if he bets out?

[Gigglegirl]

I cbet $4 here. Its a dry board and they need a king or better to call.
As played, I may fold depending on what I thought of Villain but probably I'd chk/raise to $8. It reps a monster and BTN really needs a good hand to call. If called or raised, I'm done with it.
If you call flop then being OOP means its going to be tough to get to showdown for a price you like, especially if CO tags along bloating the pot.
Ikaika, BTN could easily be stabbing to see if his medium PP is good here.

[members_only]

I would call and c/f the turn (or possibly call a small bet.) He could bet a lot that you're ahead of here (any pp and lots of air.) Yes, you won't be in a great spot on the turn but I can't see any other way to play it.

(Edit: except that I would c-bet this all day)

[mookboi]

Why did you check flop? This is a cbet, like always, unless your reads really suck. .71 AF isn't going to be trying to push you off hands in position, if he raises you, ya know he has a K at least, and you are done with hand. They are folding here often enough where it's the best play. And if they aren't folding, at least you are in a better spot than you are presently. As played, you are in a difficult spot against unknown. c/ring without read sucks, you can call and c/c turn unimproved, but this sucks too.

Have to cbet this.

[stevematador]

I think you have to bet this flop and then fold if he raises, you really need to find out now if he has the King or not, and calling his bet after checking flop does you no good in gaining valuable information, and you face a tougher decision on the turn. I'd try to take it down or fold it on the flop to avoid spewing chips later in the hand.

[ICMoney]

CB flop.

As played:
Call bet and re-eval.

You could donk small (1/2 or 2/5) on turn and be done with the hand on turn.

[eigenvalue]

The K-high flop looks good for a C-bet. One broadway card and two low cards are most times very good flops to C-Bet, even if you missed them or if an overcard appeared. After you checked that flop, you are left in trouble. The best way to proceed is to call his bet and to lead the turn for 2/3 of the pot. If he made a feeler bet with a lower pair, this will give him some trouble and you might still win the pot that way. If he has a K, he will never fold after you checked the flop. So if he calls the turn bet, play c/f on most rivers.

[cooker3]

Yeah agree with most everyone, bet out the on the flop and as played c/c.
A c/r here is horrible for whichever poster was suggesting it

[Gigglegirl]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah agree with most everyone, bet out the on the flop and as played c/c.
A c/r here is horrible for whichever poster was suggesting it

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggested it.
As I also said, I may fold depending on how I feel towards Villain but I'm never calling here cos you're OOP and asking to be pushed off this hand.
Ok, everyone agrees its a clear cbet.
But as played we're in a tough spot.
CO checked behind us so we have to assume he hasn't got a king.
Now what does BTN think? He sees a very big stack (presumably a good player) raise UTG and then check a very safe board. Suspicious. And then he sees CO check.
So he puts out a weak bet. Who wouldn't? This could easily be air but I'd be leaning towards a medium PP.
If we call and calling station CO calls and then we lead out 2/3 pot, it costs as much as the chk/raise which is a far more powerful move plus we're giving 2 players a free card to outdraw us.
If we call and check blank (say a 5) turn and BTN bets 1/2 pot again (which he will with a 77-JJ PP), we fold.
If we chk/raise we take down the pot now if no one has a king or better.
The chk/raise also reps huge strength, AK at least, maybe AA/set. If BTN is decent and has a medium king, he may even fold.
In any event, it'll scare the bejesus out of him and he may call and check it down and we get to showdown for free from there.
And its great meta /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[WarhammerIIC]

How are you not c-betting this flop? You're begging to get bluffed off the hand.

[corsakh]

Flop check is good. And I probably have to call this weak bet expecting to call one on the turn and get shown 99 on the river. If you call flop here, you have to be prepared to call pot on a blank turn.

[Gigglegirl]

[ QUOTE ]
How are you not c-betting this flop? You're begging to get bluffed off the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've covered that /images/graemlins/smile.gif
How do you proceed as played?

[Chomp]

I don't cbet here and I call villain's bet.

I know these are awful cliches, but...cbetting turns our hand into a bluff and we are potentially missing value we might get on later streets (by getting &lt;QQ to fold now) - 33* will fold very often when we bet, but might be tempted to call on turn. Also, one of these monkeys might bet his 88 or AJ if we chk.

On the downside, we are missing some value now if someone will call with &lt;QQ (although I think we can make up this value later anyway, so this isn't a huge concern). We are also not charging villains with 8% - 20% equity (meh, so be it IMO).

So I c/c flop, and try to work out on turn if I am ahead, whilst simultaneously trying not to get valuetowned by K5 or some crap - getting owned in this way absolutely stinks.


* Ed here - I'd originally said 22, which is obv. a set

[stickdude]

Nobody's mentioned commitment yet - button's bet puts him at the commitment threshhold (~10% of his stack), meaning he can get all his chips in by just making PSB's on the turn and river without any raises on our part. If we call the flop, are we willing to call the rest of the way against an unknown?

As played I probably give myself a KITN for not c-betting and move on to the next hand. Yes, it would mean folding the best hand sometimes, but I don't want to commit in this spot.

And I'd raise more pre-flop - $1.75 is barely more than I'd raise UTG at 25NL.