25NL: god damn shortstacks...

[Micro Donk]

SB is 20/10/1 over 175, shorty unknown

the SBV call is suspicious enough...none of the 3 options seems like a good one really...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $31.20
BB: $5.45
Hero (UTG): $25.00
MP: $26.70
CO: $16.10
BTN: $25.20

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.75</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $1.50</font>, SB calls $1.50, <font color="red">BB raises all-in to $4.70</font>, Hero....

[jerryf1914]

you really have no choice here but to call him...i mean he either got a 1% hit with 9x or he has 22

[vahdeani]

did you expect a reraise or whats the reason youre only raising 3xbb?

[Micro Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
did you expect a reraise or whats the reason youre only raising 3xbb?

[/ QUOTE ]

thats my std raise, i dont like raising 4x, and im keeping it that way

[Khaos4k]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did you expect a reraise or whats the reason youre only raising 3xbb?

[/ QUOTE ]

thats my std raise, i dont like raising 4x, and im keeping it that way

[/ QUOTE ]

Your going to have to give some reasons if you want to go against 99.9% of the forum. I'm not saying it's bad, but I would love to hear the reasoning.

[Micro Donk]

keeps the pots smaller for c-bets, which i do quite a bit

[Eddi]

[ QUOTE ]
keeps the pots smaller for c-bets, which i do quite a bit

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine you get a lot more calls though and have to fold to reraises post-flop a lot more often?

[Micro Donk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
keeps the pots smaller for c-bets, which i do quite a bit

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine you get a lot more calls though and have to fold to reraises post-flop a lot more often?

[/ QUOTE ]

not a LOT more often...my c-bets are still faily successful...not tonight, seems like a lot of em were gettin picked...ah well...but anyway...

[Bill Smith]

Preflop is fine. I go between 3x-5x depending on hand/randomness, but whatever.

I just can't put SB (TAG) on a 9 - more likely a pp - but a read on BB would be helpful. Without one, I call but shut down if SB hangs around.

[Nemesis69]

I think an opening raise of 3xBB UTG isn't so bad. I rather like it.

[LOLDONKBETZ]

sb could easilly wake up with T9s or 89s, that 3xbb open is ugly, with BB having $5.xx i'd rather be playing for his stack and not worrying about sb coming along for the ride, now i dont know if a 4xbb raise would have done that but definitely people feel more committed from the blinds when you only raises 3xbb

[ajrees]

Raise to 4xBB PF.

[Guruman]

pf nl is an art not a science. I like to open it up for 4x from utg and mp, and 3x from co and button for the same reasons as op.

I instacall the push. Villain shouldn't have any fold equity vs you with a bet that size there.

[incognitus]

i guess you have to call and be very cautious with SB.

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
keeps the pots smaller for c-bets, which i do quite a bit

[/ QUOTE ]
That thinking is way off imo. One of the main reasons to cbet is because it is profitable on its own merits because people don't call you often enough so that your cbets show an automatic profit.
If that is the case, you want your pots to be marginally bigger not smaller.

That being said I also raise 3xBB from UTG (and UTG+1) because I want smaller pots on average when i'm out of position. I go for 4xBB from CO and BTN because I want the pots to be bigger when I have position. I think this should be your answer to the "why 3xBB" question.
[ldo I add +1 BB per limper from each position]

Of course it depends on table dynamics, sometimes one ends up at a table where 3 BB raises get called all the time. If this happens, because we"ll play multiway OOP often I tend to switch it up to 4x from UT/UTG+1 and keep it at 3x with hands where I like multiway pots and know where I stand right away (PPs) if I think I can get away with noone noticing it.
I find that people willing to call 3xBB raises are over-proportionally less likely to call the 4xBB for some reason so this usually works out.

[tsearcher]

Raise more pre flop. SB is not aggressive so call BB's all in. If SB reraises, you can safely fold. Re-evaluate at turn.

[ICMoney]

Calling or making a fake iso raise is fine.

(and watch your language please)

[DaycareInferno]

3+1 is my standard raise, and 2/3 pot is my standard cbet. my reasoning is that my results are better than 4 and 3/4, for whatever reason.

you take down less pots preflop and on the flop taking this route, but, at the same time, you're more likely to get action when you make a good hand.

i think the reason that my own personal results are better using this approach is that i overplay my hands less often when there is more money behind on the flop.

another thing that people sometimes don't consider, is that against a donk, you can still get all of your money in. against someone with fish stats, you don't have to worry about being blatantly obvious by jacking the pot up when you make a good hand, because they're not paying any attention anyway, and even if they are, they still can't fold a good hand. against a reg, different story, but wotever.

[carnivalhobo]

[ QUOTE ]
keeps the pots smaller for c-bets, which i do quite a bit

[/ QUOTE ]

so does everyone else, and if you raise 25% more preflop, then the size of the pots you win by cbetting are that much larger. its also easier to get stacks in if you make it 4bb pre as opposed to 3

[pucks32]

[ QUOTE ]
3+1 is my standard raise, and 2/3 pot is my standard cbet. my reasoning is that my results are better than 4 and 3/4, for whatever reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size? Don't be results oriented.

As stated above, the point of cbetting is to take down the pot on the flop, so you would want a bigger pot if you're cbetting is successful. You want to be thinking about winning bigger pots, not losing bigger bets. Yes, it will happen, but if you're cbetting is done well, you will make moire in the long run with a 4x pfraise.

[DaycareInferno]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3+1 is my standard raise, and 2/3 pot is my standard cbet. my reasoning is that my results are better than 4 and 3/4, for whatever reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size? Don't be results oriented.

As stated above, the point of cbetting is to take down the pot on the flop, so you would want a bigger pot if you're cbetting is successful. You want to be thinking about winning bigger pots, not losing bigger bets. Yes, it will happen, but if you're cbetting is done well, you will make moire in the long run with a 4x pfraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that is highly dependent on who you are playing against. after the flop, good players can discern the differences between different sized bets, but for the most part, bad players are either calling or not calling, so you can just blantantly manipulate the size of the pot against them, which means that the higher % of stacks left behind post flop, the more of an advantage that becomes.

why do we bet 4bb and not 10bb? we would take down the blinds even more often doing that. obviously the answer is because we would like to get some action from worse hands when we have something legitimate. good players will typically call with the same range of hands versus 3 or 4bb raises, but bad players will much more often feel compelled to call with hands like weak aces and weak broadway hands on the BB when its only 2 more for them to see the flop.

i don't think that 3+1 is superior than 4+1, but i don't think there's nearly as much difference between the two as a lot of people suggest. if a player is more comfortable with one than the other, and seems to play better and has better results with one than the other, than it seems pretty clear to me they should go with it. not being results oriented only goes so far. at some point, you're going to want a result! (my own sample size is about 30k/15k)

[_Apollo_]

[ QUOTE ]
3+1 is my standard raise, and 2/3 pot is my standard cbet. my reasoning is that my results are better than 4 and 3/4, for whatever reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

the size of your cbet shouldn't always be 2/3 pot. It should be dependent on the drawiness of the board and other factors but a standard cbet is a mistake imo.

and also make it 4bb+1/limper in EP.

[DaycareInferno]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3+1 is my standard raise, and 2/3 pot is my standard cbet. my reasoning is that my results are better than 4 and 3/4, for whatever reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

the size of your cbet shouldn't always be 2/3 pot. It should be dependent on the drawiness of the board and other factors but a standard cbet is a mistake imo.

and also make it 4bb+1/limper in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not always 2/3, that is just my default.

[Micro Donk]

anyway, seems pretty unanimous...

i really screwed up the actual hand. i went with the "isolate shove"...my tourney days came back...but anyway, not only did the shorty have 98s, the SB had 22. rigged...oh well live and learn