AK 3bet - standard fold?

[Go_BroKe]

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

Hero (SB): $25.95
BB: $25.00
UTG: $23.65
MP: $47.95
CO: $29.95
BTN: $27.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, BB folds, BTN calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.25) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $5.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $17.00</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $12.00 returned to BTN

Pot Size: $17.25 ($0.85 Rake)

villian was very TAGish like 20/15 or something.
Haven't seen any bad moves from him.

[corsakh]

What?! This is ridicoulous.

[C4LL4W4Y]

no way man, you're cbetting here (from his perspective, which widens his raising range ). stack off.

[Go_BroKe]

against his range TT+,AQ+ i can only hope for a split against AK.
QQ,KK have me crushed.
What worse hand does he raise in this spot?
should I alway go broke in a 3 bet pot w/ TPTK?

[Triggerle]

I don't mind the fold as you don't beat many hands that he might do this with if he plays sane.

Your flop bet is too small, though, and may have invited a bluff.

I check/call the flop a lot, too, because everybody seems to go crazy a lot in 3bet pots. Often by denying them to go the crazy route they will let me get to showdown cheaply.

There's a place for felting TPTK but it involves other villian types and/or more loose-aggressive table dynamics.

[corsakh]

AQ and JT are both enough for me to go broke.

[EricDarland]

Good fold.

[ajrees]

He could have had AK as well.

[1tripz1]

how can this be a standard fold? it always suprises me when people posts hands where they get the cards they were hoping for but fold anyway. This could be anything in this spot, KJ/K10 (at this limit) so you need to just stack off.

[.xxxx.]

Triggerle, should hero have bet pot on the flop?

How aggressive villain is playing is also important for this hand?

[Panic__NL]

I dont see anything wrong with the cbet, but what is a decent Villian raising on this flop against a preflop 3-better?
Normal 3bet range is TT+ AQ+, most of these hands hit on the flop, JJ or TT could be cbetting, but again why would villian raise.
So villian knows you have probably hit on this flop or will instafold JJ TT against a raise, so he must be beating a lot of you range to be raising here. Nothing wrong with folding here.


@1tripz1: the flop can be the cards u were hoping for, the action can be different than you were hoping for.

[corsakh]

Not for a hundred BB. If a good reg notice you folded AK once in this spot, your life is going to be hell on this table.

[Triggerle]

Edit ^^^^ Don't open fold obv. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Triggerle, should hero have bet pot on the flop?


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know it was just a hunch I had. I think if we bet pot we reduce the possibility of a bluff (strangely, people for some reason find the need to bluff a lot in 3bet pots).

I actually think it's best to check/call and hope my call makes him afraid to bet the turn. I then happyly value bet the river.

This is extremely dependend on your personal style, though. I know players who would felt this without much thought but they go to the felt all the time so their opponents will look them up with marginal hands.

[ QUOTE ]
How aggressive villain is playing is also important for this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Solid reads &gt; all in almost all situations.

[nutstoyou]

At these limits I think most of the time with a set a typical TAG in position would smooth call the flop raise and hope you bet again on the turn so he can raise you then.

My guess is he has either two pair - K's and Q's or AK, so the best you can hope for is a split pot unless you hit one of your three A outs and he does have K Q. I don't think it is a bad hand to fold but it is very player dependent, and not a fold you would want to make against an aggressive player who is not afraid to bluff.

[whyzze]

I dont think I have ever 3bet preflop and then folded when I caught tptk on the flop. At this point, I want the money in, if he caught a set, or luckboxed a better 2 pair Im going broke 99% of the time.

Now, if I think that I am ahead of very few hands and a split is very likely, I will crai. This may get him to fold his AK as well as induce a bluff from all the worse PPs that called my 3bet.

If he doesn't bet I lead turn and reevalute.

[.xxxx.]

I think we're giving BTN too much credit here, KQ is the only wb hand

[monkeymaps]

meh can someone give me a hand that BTN does this with that we are better then splitting with?
Im not saying this is good/bad fold but standard TAG isnt bluffing here IMO.

[jtr]

I think it's actually close.

To the people saying "WTF? call/push!", if you get it all-in at this point, what percentage of the time do you think you win the showdown? I think it's 35-40%. That means calling is better than folding and just accepting the $8.50 loss, but only by a dollar or so.

If the opponent is passive enough that KQ and sets are a big part of his range, well, obviously it's a fold.

[HoldEmNewby]

Am I the only one who has a problem with the preflop 3bet size? I think you're welcoming way too much action. As for flop if you're not getting it all-in on this flop you shouldn't have cbet the flop.

[dnord]

Pot is $1.35 to which we've contributed .10, a call would bump the pot to 2.25, so a PSB would be 3.25, making pot 4.50 and giving raiser 2:1...

I was thinking that the reraise was just right. Do you have a reason to offer the 4x opener less than 2:1? Is it because we're OOP the rest of the hand?

[traz]

raise more preflop. I probably shove the flop, but I think it's alot closer than some of you are making it.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who has a problem with the preflop 3bet size? I think you're welcoming way too much action. As for flop if you're not getting it all-in on this flop you shouldn't have cbet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that 3 bet prob should be bigger.
Why are we not c-betting this flop?
alot of the time villan is folding like 22-TT to our cbet.
I see what your saying though but once we get raised on the flop it changes villans range drasticly.

[HoldEmNewby]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who has a problem with the preflop 3bet size? I think you're welcoming way too much action. As for flop if you're not getting it all-in on this flop you shouldn't have cbet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that 3 bet prob should be bigger.
Why are we not c-betting this flop?
alot of the time villan is folding like 22-TT to our cbet.
I see what your saying though but once we get raised on the flop it changes villans range drasticly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not against cbetting this flop, but if i do i'm getting it all-in. I'm not b/f.

[monkeymaps]

agree mostly stack sizes are kind of akward here. larger 3 bet def getting it in here on the flop. I prob never fold this in the moment but I think its close.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Triggerle, should hero have bet pot on the flop?


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know it was just a hunch I had. I think if we bet pot we reduce the possibility of a bluff (strangely, people for some reason find the need to bluff a lot in 3bet pots).


[/ QUOTE ]
I don´t get it, what possible good does it do to stop villain from bluffing? Bet size is just right and shove it in on top of his raise. Bet/folding this flop sucks donkey balls.

[Snafu'd]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who has a problem with the preflop 3bet size? I think you're welcoming way too much action. As for flop if you're not getting it all-in on this flop you shouldn't have cbet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, more needs to go in preflop. I never 3 bet just the pot size when I'm in the blinds. I'll always make it an extra 2bb's on top of the pot sized raise and sometimes more than that depending on the number of opponents.

[Panic__NL]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we not c-betting this flop?
alot of the time villan is folding like 22-TT to our cbet.
I see what your saying though but once we get raised on the flop it changes villans range drasticly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would we want villian to fold a hand that we beat and that is drawing to two outs?

[monkeymaps]

cause we dont always have TP when we c-bet I dont think checking this really gets any extra value from small PP's.

this is a pretty standard spot no? BTN raises we 3 bet with AK(small) and get called (pretty wide range PPs some SC's AK AQ maybe KQ KJ JT)
and we bet flop with tptk I dont really get checking flop?

[Panic__NL]

I agree cbetting is not bad here, cause we will do the same when we did not hit, but I was suprised by this sentence:
"alot of the time villan is folding like 22-TT to our cbet"

why would we want that.

[monkeymaps]

maybe not the best phrasing on my part just meant cbet takes this pot down pretty often.

[Hail Eris]

I'd fold this if it wasn't BvB, but it's still pretty close. This flop couldn't hit your 3bet range any harder. What on earth is everyone putting him on that makes this an easy push?

[retleftolc]

If I 3bet, it is to 4. The pot is then 8.25. Cbet 7. Pot is 15.25 and then you wouldn’t be asking the question.

As played, if I call I’m committed. If I re-raise I'm committed. I've put in 1/3 of my stack already, I'm committed.

Ret

[Panic__NL]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe not the best phrasing on my part just meant cbet takes this pot down pretty often.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok did not mean to be picking on you, just wanted to point out that could not be the reason we bet there.

[albedoa]

This thread is so messed up that I feel we're being leveled. Increasing the size of our c-bet so that we don't get bluff raised? Trying to get TT-22 to fold? Are you people mad?

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is so messed up that I feel we're being leveled. Increasing the size of our c-bet so that we don't get bluff raised? Trying to get TT-22 to fold? Are you people mad?

[/ QUOTE ]

your not cbetting to MAKE 22-TT fold that is just a range that villian could have. your betting for value.charging draws/mixing it up vs the times you bet with nothing here.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is so messed up that I feel we're being leveled. Increasing the size of our c-bet so that we don't get bluff raised? Trying to get TT-22 to fold? Are you people mad?

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't intend to give the advice of cbetting bigger. I just noted that it looks small and that "3bet pot OMG I need to bluff" type opponents will start bluffing based on this. My preferred action against this particular opponent is indeed quite the opposite of cbetting bigger. It is to check/call the flop.