Which is a better BJ strategy?

[hmkpoker]

I recently deposited onto PlanetLuck.

I see two slightly different strategy cards for the same casino (difference is 10/10(hit) and A,A/A(split). Which one is better?

http://www.casinobonuspages.com/blackjack-strategy/iglobal-media.php

http://www.onlineblackjackguide.com/planetluckfullreview.html

[otter]

If it's european no hole card then you don't split A's vs an A since if you split and lose to a bj then you lose both bets. You also wouldn't split 8's vs a 10,A. At planet you split A's. I'm not sure what your 10/10 means. You never split 10's. You double 10 against a 2-9.

[mr2good]

I see on all the strategy cards that you never split 10s. This makes sense to me most of the time. But if the dealer is showing a 5 or a 6, shouldn't it be more profitable to split the tens then?

[orentha]

[ QUOTE ]
I see on all the strategy cards that you never split 10s. This makes sense to me most of the time. But if the dealer is showing a 5 or a 6, shouldn't it be more profitable to split the tens then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked this exact same question a couple weeks ago in the Other gambling games forum, but I went there and didn't see it... weird.

someone posted the EV for splitting 10s and not splitting them if the dealer has a 6. and it was very close to the same, but standing was a little more EV.
I dont remember the exact numbers

[timex]

I usually play just assuming the dealer has a ten since it is the most likely card.

[dave88]

[ QUOTE ]
if the dealer is showing a 5 or a 6, shouldn't it be more profitable to split the tens then?

[/ QUOTE ]

NO

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see on all the strategy cards that you never split 10s. This makes sense to me most of the time. But if the dealer is showing a 5 or a 6, shouldn't it be more profitable to split the tens then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked this exact same question a couple weeks ago in the Other gambling games forum, but I went there and didn't see it... weird.

someone posted the EV for splitting 10s and not splitting them if the dealer has a 6. and it was very close to the same, but standing was a little more EV.
I dont remember the exact numbers

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess if they were close enough, it would be worth splitting since you get twice the money wagered with a split. IE: Is the EV of standing more than the (EV of splitting) - (HA of betting another unit)?

[thing85]

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I usually play just assuming the dealer has a ten since it is the most likely card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm hoping you're just joking...

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see on all the strategy cards that you never split 10s. This makes sense to me most of the time. But if the dealer is showing a 5 or a 6, shouldn't it be more profitable to split the tens then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked this exact same question a couple weeks ago in the Other gambling games forum, but I went there and didn't see it... weird.

someone posted the EV for splitting 10s and not splitting them if the dealer has a 6. and it was very close to the same, but standing was a little more EV.
I dont remember the exact numbers

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess if they were close enough, it would be worth splitting since you get twice the money wagered with a split. IE: Is the EV of standing more than the (EV of splitting) - (HA of betting another unit)?

[/ QUOTE ]


no you shouldn't split.

if you are in a live casino and have a highly positive shoe (remaining you've seen lots and lots of the low-cards...a preoponderance of T's and A's remain in the shoe) then splitting T's CAN be profitable. but the situations where you have seen enough low-cards come out to make the count positive enough to warrant doing this are not terribly common and you really shouldn't worry about it.

In other words, don't just sit there and think, "hmmmm...Bob said if I've seen a bunch of low-cards...well, I think we've had a lot so I'm going to split this T's."
If you're not counting to know for sure where you stand then you will probably be guessing wrong (count really isn't quite high enough for a split to be +EV).


Note as well that splitting T's will also get you noticed by the pit and they will take a look at your play more closely to make sure you aren't counting.


Those who are making some weird assumptions in this thread don't need to worry about that though since it will quickly become obvious that you really don't know what you're doing at the BJ table and that the pit doesn't need to worry about you.


If you are playing online BJ then you should certainly never split T's.

[otter]

There's an old saying, "the only 2 people that split 10's are card counters and idiots."

[MicroBob]

Haven't heard the saying...but it is pretty accurate.

[Benholio]

I have no idea what the EV of standing or splitting 10's vs. a 6 is, the point I was basically making was that if there is ever a scenario where splitting/doubling/somehow increasing your wager has only a very slightly lower EV than the alternative, and you are wagering towards a specific amount for a bonus, then it might be worth going 'against the book'.

[thing85]

Years and years ago when I was in my teens and my dad was teaching me to play blackjack, I asked him why I shouldn't split two 10's. He said to me, "Why would you want to split a winning hand?" That's always been the layman logic behind my understanding of it.

[VinnyTheFish]

ok - how about pontoon:

You are dealt AA. When you split and get (say) T and T for 21 on both (1) are they both pontoon (paying 2:1) or is it even? (2) Do you not split with a 2 and a possiblity for 5 card trick and the 2:1 payout?

note: I have the card that says only split AA and 88.

maybe I should send this question to the wizard of odds?

[_TKO_]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually play just assuming the dealer has a ten since it is the most likely card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Visit www.wizardofodds.com (http://www.wizardofodds.com) and scroll to the bottom of the BJ page. I promise you'll change this assumption quickly.

[lozen]

If your playing at planetluck it really does not matter. Software is rigged.

[Shaggy]

Check out this link to bjmath.com it is the EV table for all card combinations for a 6 deck game with some standard rules. Note it is not the proper table for the ENHC rule. You can probably find the correct strategy at bjmath or wizard of odds though. This set of tables should put to rest the splitting tens debate. And I agree, the only people who split tens are counters or idiots... and I'm no idiot.

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/ev/6dh17.htm

-Shaggy

[otter]

I suspect no, but have no data. However, if you found out I'd be interested to know.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually play just assuming the dealer has a ten since it is the most likely card.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the worst strategies.

Never bust: HA = 3.91% (stand on hard 12 or more)
Mimic the dealer: HA = 5.48%
Assume a ten in the hole: HA = 10.03%

[J_B]

Tens are the most common card, but no where near a 50% of the deck! In fact, thay are less than 1/3 of the deck! If you assume a ten, you are either counting or a fool.

[RikaKazak]

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I usually play just assuming the dealer has a ten since it is the most likely card.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, or you can let computers do the CORRECT math for you and have the REAL answer

[RikaKazak]

Splitting 10's comes up WAY more often in Black Jack tournaments than it does in playing str8 up cash.

[Guthrie]

[ QUOTE ]
I see on all the strategy cards that you never split 10s. This makes sense to me most of the time. But if the dealer is showing a 5 or a 6, shouldn't it be more profitable to split the tens then?

[/ QUOTE ]
Never split tens.

[Precision1C]

Splitting Ts is going to be highly unusual and if you are a card counter pretty much is going to give away the show. Why would you do this in such a marginal situation. Though many BJ books discuss making large insurance bets with a good shoe and that would also paint a "I am a card counter" sign on you too.

[VinnyTheFish]

OK - found out last night, although I have not found complete Pontoon Rules in print (not really looking too hard).
Best case #1 assuming you are not delt another Ace:
Dealt: AA bet $5
Split hand #1: AT (or KQJ) - PONTOON Paid $15
Split hand #2: AT (or KQJ) - PONTOON Paid $15

Moral of the story: Split them Aces!!

[VinnyTheFish]

Pontoon rules from http://wizardofodds.com/pontoon

[ QUOTE ]

9. The player may split two cards of equal rank. The player may resplit once, up to a total of three hands, including aces. When the player splits the first card dealt to each hand shall be automatic.

10. Player may draw and double after splitting aces.

11. The 2-card 21 after splitting aces counts as a pontoon.
If the player busts he immediately loses and forfeits his cards and total wager.

12. After all players have played out their hands the dealer shall expose his two cards. Then the dealer shall continue to draw cards until he has a total of 17 points or more, except the dealer shall hit a soft 17. The dealer will also stop with any five-card hand.

13. The dealer shall compare his hand to each player hand. A winning player pontoon or five-card hand shall pay 2 to

14. All other player wins shall pay 1 to 1 (even money).



[/ QUOTE ]
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Pontoon after Splitting Aces

Whether or not a 2-card 21 after splitting aces counts as a pontoon at Real Time Gaming casinos is getting to be a very sore subject with me. I've had numerous e-mails both ways and have changed my position on it multiple times. The root of the problem seems to be the following rule, taken from the RTG web site.

However I'm taking a stand that this rule is in error. I've had two RTG casino managers insist that this rule is not configurable by the casino operator. As evidence that iNetBet, for one, lets the player draw after splitting aces, resplit aces, and pays a pontoon 2 to 1 after splitting aces I submit the following screenshot.

At Cryptologic and Playtech they treat an ace and 10 after splitting aces as a pontoon. The screenshot below based on an initial bet of $1 proves this to be true at Playtech.



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[b] SO it depends on which site you are on, but the Crypto's = Pontoon -- SPLIT THOSE BAD BOYZ!

[_TKO_]

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Splitting 10's comes up WAY more often in Black Jack tournaments than it does in playing str8 up cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Does it increase variance while sacrificing EV, thereby making it a short term attempt to finish farther in the tournament?

[efficacy]

All I read was the title...

A: Cup the balls.

[otter]

You can't pass up the insurance bet no matter what it paints you as...i.e. if the count justifys it

[otter]

Generally only on the last few hands

[MicroBob]

blackjack tournament strategy varies significantly from just 'regular' blackjack. it's mostly on the last few hands though.


you have to place youe wager and then act on your hand IN ORDER. There's a rotating button that determines who gets to be 3rd base (and act last) on each hand.


Simple example:
Other players have busted out...it's just you and the other guy. Only 1 player advances to the next round.
You both place your bets at...whatever.

Your opponent gets a 21 and has a sure winner.
You have a 20. You bet less than half of your chips and if you win the hand you will still end up with fewer chips than your opponent.
But if you were to split T's and get lucky on each then you will end up with more chips than your opponent.

Not splitting T's in this situation would be retarded because winning the hand gets you nothing.

You would also be in a position where you might have to double-down on your hard 17 or something as your only chance.

Note that if the other player still has yet to act then he can possibly be put in a position of doubling-down on his 21 to pass you again in chips if you catch a couple of 20's.

Or he can hope the dealer draws to 21 and beats both of your 20's...while he still gets paid for his BJ.

His chances would be better to just double-down on his 21 and try to get 21 AGAIN then it would be to stay and then just hope the dealer beats the opponents 20s.


However, if the splitting T's guy got an 18 and a 17 then he might have to stay on his 21 and hope the dealer draws to an 18 or better. Depending on the face-card the guy with the blackjack could have a tricky decision as to whether he should double-down on his 21 or not.


This is a SIMPLE example.
It gets way way way more complicated than that in BJ tournaments with multiple players remaining and perhaps the top 2 players advancing to the next round.

Stanford Wong wrote a good Casino Tournament Strategy book.

I find blackjack tournament strategy to be incredibly interesting stuff.

[Mogobu The Fool]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what the EV of standing or splitting 10's vs. a 6 is, the point I was basically making was that if there is ever a scenario where splitting/doubling/somehow increasing your wager has only a very slightly lower EV than the alternative, and you are wagering towards a specific amount for a bonus, then it might be worth going 'against the book'.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually an interesting consideration. You're definitely -EV on the split, because the EV calc takes into consideration the return on the doubled amount of money bet. . . but you need to consider your time value. If you are earning, say, $.50/Bet clearing a bonus, and splitting the Tens lets you put an extra bet in play, then it's +EV overall as long as the cost of the split is less than $.50 . . . as long as you have something else profitable to do with the time saved.

There are a variety of marginal plays that one might change if the goal is to put as much money in play as possible as quickly as possible. . .

If your EV on a random hand of BJ in a given game is, say, -1%, then you can easily argue that marginal plays which give up 1% but double your wager are good to make. Remember, you don't expect to earn money on the next hand, either -- they're all losers, and you're only there for the bonus.

I guess weak splits and doubles are all (potentially) game.

On the other hand, the action also increases your variance in a marginal situation. The counter-argument would be that if you're willing to tolerate higher variance to clear the bonus faster, why not play proper strategy, but increase your base bet size? That's why it can only be correct to give up a very small amount of EV; otherwise it becomes clearly better to get your extra money in on fresh cards with a bigger bet, rather than pushing it on a losing play with an existing hand.

[MicroBob]

I'm still trying to follow the logic here.

The 'time saved' can't possibly be that significant.


I guess if your hard-20 is going to be 75% profitable and splitting the T's would be 74.99% profitable each then you are essentially trying to spend a penny to get through the bonus faster.



But by this logic you should always be striving to make the faster plays on really close-calls.
So don't hit that 16 v. a 10 because it takes a milli-second longer.


I'm all for creative approaches to such problems as these. But I just don't think that splitting T's to try to get through your bonus any faster is really going to be worth the time-saved but I don't think we can be sure.

You would have to know eactly how much your bonus is worth per second, how many milli-seconds longer it takes to just stand on your 20 and get onto the next hand vs. splitting the T's to get more money into play supposedly faster...vs the amoun of EV you lose by splitting T's in the first place.


I just wouldn't recommend it.

And because the count has to be pretty high to even mathematically justify splitting T's vs. a 5 or 6 I think that splitting T's when you are assuming an even count (as you do when you are playing online and basic-strategy) is a bit more -EV than is being assumed in this thread.

[bkholdem]

I like it when they use lots of saliva and no teeth

[mr2good]

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I like it when they use lots of saliva and no teeth

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha, just perfect.