QQ preflop and flop...fairly standard spot

[Chomp]

CO: 18/14 (550 hands). TAG reg - seems to play nittier than stats suggest.
BN: 37/15 (50 hands). Hard to know what to make of this over such a small sample.

Preflop and flop comments please. I'll post the next action if there is interest.

Thanks

.........................

Converter at Talking-Poker (http://www.talking-poker.com)

saw flop | <font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button <font color="#C00000">Button ($83.75)</font>
SB Hero ($50.00)
BB ($61.60)
UTG ($54.62)
CO ($49.00)

Preflop: Hero is in the SB with Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif
1 fold, CO raises to $2.00, Button raises to $7.00, Hero calls $6.75, 2 folds.

Flop ($16.50) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero...

[Ramana]

I hope you didn't call for setvalue pf. And that's a perfect flop for QQ. CRAI seems good to me, you can't put him on AA KK with such stats, even though the samplesize is too small obv.

[corsakh]

Never ever smooth call preflop 3bets without AA. Your just giving the original raiser a green light to push.

[monkeymaps]

I just make it like 18-20 preflop.
as played, cr/AI seems ok agianst most of his range.

[Chomp]

Sorry guys, I should know the answer to this, but why 4b pre? We only occasionally get calls from worse hands (JJ/TT/Ax), always get pushes from trouble hands (AA/KK/AK), and fold out hands we are ahead of but that might pay us off post (AJ/AQ hitting a J/Q for example).

Given this fact, and the fact QQ is pretty close in equity terms to a random 3b range:

Hand 0: 58.904% { QQ }
Hand 1: 41.096% { TT+, AJs+, AJo+ }

...why is a call wrong with an intention to felt (say crai) any non-A/K board? That way, we catch AK/TT/JJ/air/random crap/draws that cb and lose to AA/KK, which is fine as we would have been owned by these hands pre anyway if we had 5b?

And on preflop, do we call the 5b push?

Fwiw, I checked flop with the intention of crai, which was my plan when I called preflop.

[monkeymaps]

think every thing you said makes sense. OOP I just always tend to be more agressive. But maybe the equity you gain post flop by just calling preflop is more important then 4 betting here.

[Chomp]

Any further thoughts on 4b QQ pre? I think it's a pretty important question that touches on lots of fundamentals.

Fwiw, here's a current SS thread about the same thing, although this hand is 3way. Dan Bitel expresses a forceful opinion on the matter in this thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=11785673&amp;an=0&amp;page=0&amp;gon ew=1#UNREAD)

[bozzer]

play for stacks....

[bozzer]

Chomp, 60% equity against the 3b range is a decent chunk, and probably enough that you are willing to raise for protection* even if not for value (I doubt that you are ahead of a calling range).

*actually is this valid here? usually i use this phrase to mean bet so that draws are making a mistake by calling. i guess that we could do that here, but we agree that such a mistake is unlikely.

[MoP_86]

ok well if you're not 4-betting you're calling for set value? or shoving any flops that do not contain an Ace or King?

[Upgrade_U]

by calling 3bet pf you're looking to either hit a set on A or K high flop or looking for a overpair flop which you got so crAI or lead

[poker12]

hero bets?????

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
Chomp, 60% equity against the 3b range is a decent chunk, and probably enough that you are willing to raise for protection* even if not for value (I doubt that you are ahead of a calling range).

*actually is this valid here? usually i use this phrase to mean bet so that draws are making a mistake by calling. i guess that we could do that here, but we agree that such a mistake is unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah Boz, I definitely get what you are saying, but a couple of points:

1. Re: protection. Surely the need for protection is only applicable if we think he will call with the hands we need to protect against: hands like AQ/AJ/66-99 etc. I think we agree that a call from those hands is unlikely. So I think if we bet for protection we get so much "protection" from those hands that we actually get a fold!!

2. Re: equity. Isn't the issue not so much about the naked equity, but rather the best way to maximise that equity? And it seems to me that to do this, we need to adhere to the Fundamental Theorem.

So, raising can easily lead to a FToP mistake: either he folds JJ-/crap, or pushes AK/KK+. Similarly, folding can lead to a FToP mistake as he might have 84o. So, that leaves calling, which allows us react to the flop, which will help us narrow villains range, in that we will know if the AJ+ parts have hit, and we can react accordingly. On the flop that did come down, we can now be sure we are ahead of his range as AA/KK are all we fear, and we are ahead of TT/JJ/AJ+/AK.

I also think that counting hand combos works in our favour.


Bah, I hate this crap. I've been in this situation 1000 times and still have no clue about what to do. Jesus Christ how depressing.

[bozzer]

chomp, your comments look pretty sound to me. if you got it ai on this flop then i think you played the hand well.

[ilya]

I like the call PF. I would do same and plan to commit on non-Ace flop. Kxx flop is tough.

[orange]

check see what he does.