Do I commit with this overpair? ($25NL 6-max)

[stickdude]

Villain's had the big stack since I sat down - I have him at 38/11/1.4, but this is the first time I've seen him raise pre-flop and then follow up with a full pot-sized bet. Up to this point his c-bets have been in the 2/3-3/4 pot range.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($10.79)
Button ($6.74)
Hero ($33.18)
BB ($19.62)
UTG ($36.05)
MP ($15.32)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.85</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $0.85, Hero calls $0.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($2.80) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $2.8</font>, Button calls $2.80, Hero ?????

It's time for a commitment decision, as a call here is just about 10% of my stack. If I call and villain fires two more PSB's, it will be enough to put me in, so I need to decide before I call this bet how far I'm willing to take it.

[Triggerle]

You should consider 3betting TT pre-flop as you are OOP ($2.5-$2.8 should do the job). Depending on the table I would even 3bet TT 100% of the time regardless of position. By just calling you basically reduce your hand value post-flop to making a set. Also, as you move up you will have to 3bet TT anyway or you lose a lot of value.

On the flop you should lead out with $2.00 in my opinion. This makes it much easier to read UTG's hand as he will likely come over the top with better overpairs. If there is no resistance you can consider your hand likely to be best and bet the turn. As deep as you are there is no fault in folding if UTG shows resistance.

As played I think a pot sized bet into two people shows quite some strength. You can't call this. Either raise to $8, hoping he has overcards (&lt;- this is where you need reads) or fold. Button is of no concern as he is so short that you can't really get away vs. him considering the strength of your hand.

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
You should consider 3betting TT pre-flop as you are OOP ($2.5-$2.8 should do the job). Depending on the table I would even 3bet TT 100% of the time regardless of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stack sizes + being OOP = a smooth-call preflop. If I had position on him, I probably 3-bet it pre-flop, but I hate building big pots when I don't have position - at least not without a really big hand. Likewise, if villain is shortstacked, I'll go ahead and put him all-in, as I did on an earlier table with 99 vs. a shortstack.

[Triggerle]

You 3bet OOP because you will take it down a huge amount of the time and to gain the initiative.

If you just flat call you have to check/fold 95% of the flops. This one is a rare occasion where you might decide to go on with the hand but then UTG shows a lot of strength here and it will be more expensive to define your/his hand as a better/worse overpair. Choosing to blindly call this down is a mistake IMO. ("Blindly" because you have no idea where you stand if you call here.)

[Antinome]

Raising minimizes the number of decisions you have to make OOP, so it is also a strategy for playing OOP. I understand keeping the pot small, but with a hand as big as TT I'm not sure why you would want to. Get it HU, commit on any flop without an Ace or two broadway.

[bsheck]

I don't mind the preflop call. Your position sucks and I think if you reraise you're turning your hand into a bluff a lot of times. If you don't take it down preflop or on the flop you're not going to like the spot you're in a lot of times, even if you do have an overpair.

As played on the flop, you should just fold this. He raised UTG, and he's betting pot into 2 people. With the two /images/graemlins/club.gifs and possible straight draws on board, it really looks like an overpair protecting its hand rather than a 2/3-3/4 bet just to pick it up. The button isn't to be overlooked either; he could have a draw but he could also be slowplaying a set or straight. You got in cheaply, and now you're in a bad spot so I think you have an easy fold even though you'll have the best hand sometimes. Just like PNL says: Out of position = out of the action.

I balance between calling and reraising an UTG raiser with 11% pfr. I don`t mind a call pf. I think just folding is ok here. But I`m such a nit.

The problem with calling is that you don`t get any wiser on the turn IMO. If he is holding an overpair, KcAc a set combo draw etc.. he is gonna fire the turn again. An argument could me made to

If you checkraise to 11 or so you are commited of calling a push ;(

[shark_fishin]

why are you not 3betting pre-flop? you have a strong hand OOP, you need to protect it and take control of the aggression. i would bet $3.75 here rather than call.
if i didnt raise this pre-flop i would definatly be leading on this flop.

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
An argument could me made to

[/ QUOTE ]

could be made to what?? Oh, the suspense!! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Meant to say an argument could be made to checkraise, but ...
If you checkraise ... bla bla

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
why are you not 3betting pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I don't want to build a big pot OOP given the stack sizes involved. I really want Queens or higher before 3-betting.

[dimeetrees]

[ QUOTE ]
You should consider 3betting TT pre-flop as you are OOP ($2.5-$2.8 should do the job). Depending on the table I would even 3bet TT 100% of the time regardless of position. By just calling you basically reduce your hand value post-flop to making a set. Also, as you move up you will have to 3bet TT anyway or you lose a lot of value.

On the flop you should lead out with $2.00 in my opinion. This makes it much easier to read UTG's hand as he will likely come over the top with better overpairs. If there is no resistance you can consider your hand likely to be best and bet the turn. As deep as you are there is no fault in folding if UTG shows resistance.

As played I think a pot sized bet into two people shows quite some strength. You can't call this. Either raise to $8, hoping he has overcards (&lt;- this is where you need reads) or fold. Button is of no concern as he is so short that you can't really get away vs. him considering the strength of your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[maca9]

[ QUOTE ]
Get it HU, commit on any flop without an Ace or two broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would most agree with this when playing 99, TT or JJ. Commit if no aces and only 1 broadway or less?

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
Just like PNL says: Out of position = out of the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, PNL just paid for itself on this hand. In the OP I mentioned my thinking regarding commitment and whether I wanted to be committed in this spot. I didn't, so I folded to the flop bet.

Here's what my pre-PNL thinking would have been -

Pre-flop - I have a medium-high pair, but I'm OOP. Stacks are pretty deep, so I have good implied odds to call. I call.

Flop - I have an overpair and he's probably just making a standard c-bet - I call.

Turn (4/images/graemlins/spade.gif) - I still have an overpair, and I doubt he has a 6. I check, he bets pot, I call.

River (K/images/graemlins/club.gif) - ugly river, but the pot's too big to fold now - all-in we go and watch villain flip over AA. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I think the odds of overcards to TT on flop are about 65%.

[shark_fishin]

you say u didnt want to get in a big pot with 1010, yet you did :-\
if you had 3bet pre-flop, there is a chance you would have gotten away then if he 4bet/pushed, a lot of people will.
if not, then on the flop, you make a standard c-bet, with this draw heavy board, he will likely be raising, now 88/99 will not do this they will be scared of over pairs just like you and call and maybe fold turn.

[bsheck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just like PNL says: Out of position = out of the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, PNL just paid for itself on this hand. In the OP I mentioned my thinking regarding commitment and whether I wanted to be committed in this spot. I didn't, so I folded to the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice discipline shown in this hand. Not only did you lose a lot less than you were supposed to, but you also gave yourself a chance to stack the player if a T had flopped.

[Antinome]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Get it HU, commit on any flop without an Ace or two broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would most agree with this when playing 99, TT or JJ. Commit if no aces and only 1 broadway or less?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually have a reasonably loose aggressive image, so I tend to get action pretty light. TT is not a bluff for me with an overpair on the board. MP will often look me up. Those are my generic commitment guidelines for those hands given an appropriate SPR. I haven't had a long time to fine tune them because it is PNL based thinking but so far I'm pretty happy with the results.

I don't think OP's approach is particularly bad in this specific situation facing an UTG raise, but I'm not turning TT into 22 as a general rule.

[orange]

for those 3-betting TT whenever/wherever,

are you comfortable getting it in on xxx boards? how about Jxx boards? b/f-ing on nice boards with TT seems pretty meh to me.

[stickdude]

[ QUOTE ]
you say u didnt want to get in a big pot with 1010, yet you did :-\

[/ QUOTE ]

????

I folded the flop, so my only contribution to the pot was the preflop call.


[ QUOTE ]
if you had 3bet pre-flop, there is a chance you would have gotten away then if he 4bet/pushed, a lot of people will.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if villain smooth-calls my 3-bet, which he very likely would with position?

[ QUOTE ]
if not, then on the flop, you make a standard c-bet, with this draw heavy board, he will likely be raising, now 88/99 will not do this they will be scared of over pairs just like you and call and maybe fold turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

And he smooth calls the c-bet because he knows that the low flop didn't hit a pre-flop 3-bettor - my most likely hand is an overpair smaller than his, and he just keeps feeding me enough rope to hang myself...

[tarheeljks]

considering villain's pfr stats, i'm not crazy about a 3bet, esp since he opened utg.

[stickdude]

In contrast, here's a med-high overpair where I call a pre-flop raise OOP and play it completely differently - in part because the stack sizes are different, and partly because his weak bet on the flop tells me he missed the flop. The paired flop doesn't hurt, because I could easily have a 6 in the blinds...

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($35.68)
Hero ($25.68)
UTG ($12.15)
MP ($23.07)
CO ($24.60)
Button ($16.36)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($2.60) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $1.25</font>, Hero calls $1.25.

Turn: ($5.10) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $2.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $13.35</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $10.60

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
for those 3-betting TT whenever/wherever,

are you comfortable getting it in on xxx boards? how about Jxx boards? b/f-ing on nice boards with TT seems pretty meh to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not blindly getting it in when there is resistance. Pre-flop as well as post-flop aggression is simply not high enough at NL50. Of course this really depends on the opponent. Many make their hands pretty transparent and when I know what they have and I'm a dog I will happyly fold even after betting out.

In general I feel comfortable getting it in by the river on xxx boards if they just call call call.

[sww]

Stars 50nl is too nittish for 3bets with TT in general IMO... Calling ranges get too tight and not many worse hands will call. Its similar to this: board is 22Tr and you hold AT. How confident you are getting value in raised and in reraised pot? If the game is loose enough so that you can happily stack off with AT in the 3betted scenario, then its good to 3bet TT too... Otherwise I feel like I am turning my good hand into a semibluff and thuss wasting value.

[Triggerle]

If they fold too often I just start 3betting with suited connectors in addition to TT.

[sww]

If they fold too often there is no reason to 3bet TT. I value 3bet first JJ+, AK. Very quickly I add AQ and against some I remove JJ. I 3bet as bluff with very wide range if villain raises ~20% of hands. Then when he starts playing back at me I remove suited connectors and other stuff altogether but add more value hands. In the end I 3bet KJ for value or even worse. Then they should adapt again and tighten up and I can start 3betting suited connectors again but not many are capable for this, now they are playing like donks forever against me.