$5NL 6-Max, When you've been both tight and loose,

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

have no legitimate read on villian, and are first to act out of position on the flop...

1.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($10.83)
UTG ($1.40)
MP ($6.10)
CO ($8.38)
Button ($5.10)
SB ($2.04)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $0.15</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $0.13, Hero calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.45) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.28</font>

2.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($11.88)
UTG ($5.54)
MP ($6)
CO ($7.68)
Button ($4.72)
SB ($3.36)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $0.15</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.10, MP folds.

Flop: ($0.37) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.23</font>

are these your default plays?

[DaycareInferno]

i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things.

about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with.

[ajmargarine]

Hand 1 &gt; Hand 2. Check hand 2.

[Antinome]

It really depends on what he thinks your donking range is, and what his double barrel range is.

Donkbetting isn't great, but floating out of position isn't much better. check folding seems weak. I'm definitely not going to check-raise. That's a horrible line that I see way too much from otherwise good players.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things.

about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with.

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Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP.

[DaycareInferno]

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i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things.

about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with.

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Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP.

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i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things.

about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead.

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I seriously doubt a large portion of your profits comes from c/cling with vulnerable hands to showdown OOP. Even when you estimate that you are ahead, bluffs on earlier streets can outdraw you later. This sounds more like a leak to me than a strength.

[DaycareInferno]

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i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things.

about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead.

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I seriously doubt a large portion of your profits comes from c/cling with vulnerable hands to showdown OOP. Even when you estimate that you are ahead, bluffs on earlier streets can outdraw you later. This sounds more like a leak to me than a strength.

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its not a leak. its just basic deepstack poker. when you have a marginal hand, with lots of money left behind, someetimes its best not to protect your hand, because you can't get your money in with it anyway. yes, you will sacrifice some equity each time you use this approach, but you sacrifice value against most players playing marginal hands like blanks. a lot of times, the hand you hold will be very much ahead of the ranges that bet into you, but very much behind the range of hands that call your bets. taking advantage of that puts you in a lot of uncomfortable situations, but if you get good at operating in those conditions, you can earn more on mediocre hands.

everytime i'm evaluating a street, the first thing i always think about is how much money i want to get in. against some players, i want to get all my money in with tpwk. against other players i want to play for less with stronger hands.

playing a much more agressive style is a good way to go too, but it still revolves around the same concepts. the main difference is that if you have a super agressive image, then you will get looser action on weaker hands, thus making you more likely to want to play for all of your money with marginal hands, since there is now more value in doing so.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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i don't really like either one of these donk bets, because both of them are really diminishing your chances of being able to showdown your hand. you can't stand much heat, and you can't dish out much heat in the face of resistance. in general, even when i'm oop, i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn. that way i'm often calling worse hands that cbet me, and i'm often winning small pots at showdown. of course, everything could change on the turn, and maybe i'll improve or fire out a bluff, depending on lots of things.

about the only hands i do much donking with are air and things i want to get all my money in with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this precisely why you want to come out acting first? If your hand can't stand much heat, it's probably best to apply it first and when the heat comes, you know to get out of the kitchen. If you're c/cling the majority of the time in these situations, you could indeed be putting yourself in a bad spot when you were probably ahead on the flop. These are spots where I'm leaning toward diminishing my chances to get to showdown because my hands are vulnerable AND I will be playing the rest of the hand OOP.

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i can apply heat and get out of the kitchen with a 26 if i want to. its not like i need second pair for that. a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown, and by having the courage to call bluffs with them when i estimate myself to be ahead.

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I seriously doubt a large portion of your profits comes from c/cling with vulnerable hands to showdown OOP. Even when you estimate that you are ahead, bluffs on earlier streets can outdraw you later. This sounds more like a leak to me than a strength.

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its not a leak. its just basic deepstack poker. when you have a marginal hand, with lots of money left behind, someetimes its best not to protect your hand , because you can't get your money in with it anyway. yes, you will sacrifice some equity each time you use this approach, but you sacrifice value against most players playing marginal hands like blanks. a lot of times, the hand you hold will be very much ahead of the ranges that bet into you, but very much behind the range of hands that call your bets. taking advantage of that puts you in a lot of uncomfortable situations, but if you get good at operating in those conditions, you can earn more on mediocre hands.

everytime i'm evaluating a street, the first thing i always think about is how much money i want to get in. against some players, i want to get all my money in with tpwk. against other players i want to play for less with stronger hands.

playing a much more agressive style is a good way to go too, but it still revolves around the same concepts. the main difference is that if you have a super agressive image, then you will get looser action on weaker hands, thus making you more likely to want to play for all of your money with marginal hands, since there is now more value in doing so.

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There is a big difference between sometimes c/cling with these hands OOP and, "I will c/c with these types of hands alot then..." Alot is more likely to be a leak than sometimes, which sometimes c/cling I often employ. The play is more based on my image and hardly any read on villain, not based on how to play basic deepstack poker.

[DaycareInferno]

why would c/cing a lot be a leak if it tends to be the best option available when you do it. a lot isn't an exeaggeration on my part. i play much more passively on the flop with these types of hands than most players do. i posted some stats the other day, and my postflop AF is about 2.8. if i wanted to play more agressively with marginal hands, i would probably run with an AF closer to 5 or 6 as opposed to 3.5-4, so that i'd be getting a lot of action from worse hands when i did.

is your image agressive enough that you're really going to get much value out of your 99 in hand 2? is it really tight enough that a bluff in that situation is far and away more profitable than your hand's showdown value? if your image was that tight, wouldn't you rather be using your really hopeless hands for those bluffs?

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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why would c/cing a lot be a leak if it tends to be the best option available when you do it.

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Because you're also doing this with overcards present.

[DaycareInferno]

so? overcards are present whether you bet or check. if we're that worried about them, we should just check/fold, but we shouldn't be that worried about them.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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so? overcards are present whether you bet or check. if we're that worried about them, we should just check/fold, but we shouldn't be that worried about them.

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So is exactly what would cause this to become a leak. If you're calling preflop OOP with hardly any read on your opponent and catch middle pair on the flop, then c/c alot to showdown with overs present, I don't see how this can be anything but a leak.

Say in hand 1. you check and villain bets $0.40 and you call. The turn is a blank but the pot is now $1.25. You check then villain then bets $0.95 and you call again. The river is A /images/graemlins/club.gif and the pot is now $3.15. You check a third time and this time Villain overbets the pot $4.15. For arguments sake, let's just say you're not folding trip Aces but you're not raising either so you just call. Villain shows Q /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and wins $11.45 with Qs over As full. Or say he turns over AQ instead.

Now have hand 2. play out the same way but on the river villain shows AQ, KQ, QJ, Q9, etc.

By betting out first on the flop holding middle pair or even bottom pair with overs against an opponent you hardly have a legitimate read on may cause the hand to play out entirely different.

[DaycareInferno]

well, like i said, sometimes playing passively is going to put you in uncomfortable situations. making the best decisions really has nothing to do with being comfortable though.

also, i'm not calling oop pf often with hands like Axs/sc/whatever without good reads on my opponents. that's your hand. i'm usuaially 3betting of squeezing with unpaired hands that i like, and calling or 3betting with pp type hands.

look at it this way. what are the primary reasons that we should lead out into the raiser post flop?

1. we think our opponent(s) will call with a variety of weaker hands, giving our bet good value.

2. we want to get as much money into the pot as possible, and this is the best way to do it.

3. our bet will take down the pot a high enough percentage of the time that leading out will not only yield a profit, but it will yield a higher profit than we should expect based on the showdown value of our hand.

which of these criteria are you meeting in these hands?

i would say that in #1, its possible that you meet the criteria for the 3rd or first reasons, but then again, maybe not. in hand #2, i don't think you meet any of those criteria.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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why would c/cing a lot be a leak if it tends to be the best option available when you do it. a lot isn't an exeaggeration on my part. i play much more passively on the flop with these types of hands than most players do. i posted some stats the other day, and my postflop AF is about 2.8. if i wanted to play more agressively with marginal hands, i would probably run with an AF closer to 5 or 6 as opposed to 3.5-4, so that i'd be getting a lot of action from worse hands when i did.

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well, like i said, sometimes playing passively is going to put you in uncomfortable situations

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If you're c/cling alot in these spots OOP looking to get to showdown (even when you're being bluffed and with overs present), you are playing passive and they (your calls) are bound to put you in alot of uncomfortable situations , which leads to leaking . You've made my point. Again, I don't see how this makes up a big portion of your profits.

[Notfunny1]

Okay, first of all, you posted these hands, right?
Were you looking for advice or for people to tell you that you
played them correctly?
Why are you arguing with someone who is trying to help you, even if you think he is wrong. Just say thanks and move on.

FWIW, I would c/c the flop on both, and probably lead the turn on both, depending on what came. You get value from c-bets that way. Many people at NL$5 will cbet and then give up if you call.

However, if I were your opponent in these hands, I would raise your flop donk 100% of the time. Because it looks like exactly what it is. A marginal hand trying to fold out a preflop raiser. I'm sorry that this has worked for you, but it won't as you move up.

[DaycareInferno]

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why would c/cing a lot be a leak if it tends to be the best option available when you do it. a lot isn't an exeaggeration on my part. i play much more passively on the flop with these types of hands than most players do. i posted some stats the other day, and my postflop AF is about 2.8. if i wanted to play more agressively with marginal hands, i would probably run with an AF closer to 5 or 6 as opposed to 3.5-4, so that i'd be getting a lot of action from worse hands when i did.

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well, like i said, sometimes playing passively is going to put you in uncomfortable situations

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If you're c/cling alot in these spots OOP looking to get to showdown (even when you're being bluffed and with overs present), you are playing passive and they (your calls) are bound to put you in alot of uncomfortable situations , which leads to leaking . You've made my point. Again, I don't see how this makes up a big portion of your profits.

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how well you do with marginal hands has a huge impact on anyone's profits, because it is very easy to bet good hand, and it is very easy to fold bad hands. it only makes sense that how you play the hands in between is going to be a large factor in a player's success.

i'm not going to keep arguing, but i will just have to disagree with your logic that being faced with difficult situations leads to leaking money. my understanding is that a player is leaking when he makes incorrect decisions that bleed off chips. that is much different than making correct decisions that will often not be the decisions we would make if we knew what our opponents cards were.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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Okay, first of all, you posted these hands, right?
Were you looking for advice or for people to tell you that you
played them correctly?
Why are you arguing with someone who is trying to help you, even if you think he is wrong. Just say thanks and move on.

FWIW, I would c/c the flop on both, and probably lead the turn on both, depending on what came. You get value from c-bets that way. Many people at NL$5 will cbet and then give up if you call.

However, if I were your opponent in these hands, I would raise your flop donk 100% of the time. Because it looks like exactly what it is. A marginal hand trying to fold out a preflop raiser. I'm sorry that this has worked for you, but it won't as you move up.

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So let's get this straight, someone repsonds to a hand you post saying:

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i will c/c with these types of hands a lot and then work from the turn.

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then say:

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i play much more passively on the flop with these types of hands than most players do.

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and

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well, like i said, sometimes playing passively is going to put you in uncomfortable situations

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but also say:

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a very large portion of my profits come from getting some of these hands to showdown

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If a very large portion of your profits is coming from just getting some of these hands to showdown after c/cling alot of the time OOP with overs present, and you know playing passively (c/cling alot with these types of hands) are going to put you in uncomfortable situations, then I can't see how this is good advice at all.

There's no way I'm not gonna sidestep this, say, "Thank you" and just move on. If you accept anything someone says without really paying attention to what they are saying, it can lead to you receiving bad and costly advice.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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why would c/cing a lot be a leak if it tends to be the best option available when you do it. a lot isn't an exeaggeration on my part. i play much more passively on the flop with these types of hands than most players do. i posted some stats the other day, and my postflop AF is about 2.8. if i wanted to play more agressively with marginal hands, i would probably run with an AF closer to 5 or 6 as opposed to 3.5-4, so that i'd be getting a lot of action from worse hands when i did.

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well, like i said, sometimes playing passively is going to put you in uncomfortable situations

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If you're c/cling alot in these spots OOP looking to get to showdown (even when you're being bluffed and with overs present), you are playing passive and they (your calls) are bound to put you in alot of uncomfortable situations , which leads to leaking . You've made my point. Again, I don't see how this makes up a big portion of your profits.

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how well you do with marginal hands has a huge impact on anyone's profits, because it is very easy to bet good hand, and it is very easy to fold bad hands. it only makes sense that how you play the hands in between is going to be a large factor in a player's success.

i'm not going to keep arguing, but i will just have to disagree with your logic that being faced with difficult situations leads to leaking money. my understanding is that a player is leaking when he makes incorrect decisions that bleed off chips. that is much different than making correct decisions that will often not be the decisions we would make if we knew what our opponents cards were.

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i will c/c with these types of hands a lot

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sometimes playing passively is going to put you in uncomfortable situations

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Sounds like you are playing passive alot, which leads to more uncomfortable situations.

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my understanding is that a player is leaking when he makes incorrect decisions that bleed off chips.

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And you don't see how doing both the above can be incorrect and lead to leaking?

[Iwineverypot]

Instead of donking in these spots i prefer c/cing flop and reevaluating turn as well. As inferno is saying, your hand has value and if your opponents are somewhat agressive they are betting here with A high alot. Donking alows them to fold when they have absolute garbage instead of paying you a cbet, while they are calling you when they are ahead. Why would u want to fold out all worse hands and allow mostly better hands calling you? Sounds like you're value betting for him imho. C/cing allows you to not build a pot in a spot where u have a marginal hand with some showdown value. I just don't see what are you going to do when he calls, fire again on the turn? I'd much rather force him to double barrell if he wants to take the pot down instead of having to do it myself. I don't really understand your remark about uncomfortable situations because I think especially OOP as in the 2nd hand if he calls on the flop you are in a pretty uncomfortable situation on the turn. Do you fire again? C/C? C/F? I think its much easier to C/C flop and then on the turn it's all about a read: Is he agressive on the turn? Will he double barrell with nothing often enough to snap off a bluff or should u just C/F? I think if you really think about these hands though you will see that vs a decent/thinking player the optimal way to play these spots is C/C. As an above poster said: I will autoraise alot of these random donk bets because they dont make much sense. If you actually hit something strong you should be check/raising or check/calling to get a cbet in the pot from complete air that would fold to your bet. And a large % of the time the person donkbetting folds. Anyway thats my 2cents and also i agree with the above poster in that you've now seen 3 of us agree on what you should be doing in these spots yet you seem to think it's comletely asinine and horrible. Why post and ask for advice if you're just going to debate and explain to us that you're right -- you really need to think hard about these spots.

[DaycareInferno]

here is an older thread about it that i found that has some other peoples' thoughts on the subject:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=3#Post6611535 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=6611535&amp;an=0&amp;page=3#Post 6611535)

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

I don't have a problem with doing this every now and then. What I do have a problem with is somebody saying that they c/c alot with hands like these, then saying playing passive (which c/cling alot would constitute) leads to uncomfortable situations and somehow nobody sees the contradiction in that or how it doesn't make sense. Poker is always gonna be about debate because of the "it depends" factor so I don't see what the problem is. That's like saying someone can post a hand, 30 micro players can give speculative advice and one winning, unknown HSNL player can give the best advice possible but because the majority said so, it must be a go and without rebuttal .

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

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here is an older thread about it that i found that has some other peoples' thoughts on the subject:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=3#Post6611535 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=6611535&amp;an=0&amp;page=3#Post 6611535)

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If you'll notice:

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The problems with the line is that 1) it lets opponents draw out on us if we were ahead 2) its hard to balance it out with a line we'd take with a strong hand 3) we might fold the best hand if villain like to double barrel or semibluff a draw on the turn.


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Obviously if you're doing this alot, it can be a problem because it puts you in alot more uncomfortable spots than favorable ones.