KK in reraised pot, ragged board. getting action deepstacked [Archive]

08-18-2007, 09:38 AM

villain is 32/14/4. I`m 16/10/5. I know my flop bet sucked big time. Should have made it like 12$.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($37.70)
UTG ($30)
MP ($116.45)
Button ($131.20)
Hero ($122)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG (poster) checks, MP raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP calls $6.

Flop: ($17) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $10, MP raises to $30, Hero calls $20.

Turn: ($77) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $30, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $77

yntm3

08-18-2007, 09:40 AM

Probably playing this the same without reads. Well I hope I'd be able too...

Fiksdal

08-18-2007, 09:46 AM

you are deep but this is a re-raised pot and an aggro villain will surely play TT-QQ like this. I felt here by shoving the flop. As played I shove the turn.

08-18-2007, 09:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you are deep but this is a re-raised pot and an aggro villain will surely play TT-QQ like this. I felt here by shoving the flop. As played I shove the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is pretty much pot commiting himself with those betsizes ;(

Also, evthought he was loose, I haven`t seen him play a big pot without the goods. Don`t you think he would rather check turn here with QQ ?

Fiksdal

08-18-2007, 10:02 AM

I think you are giving villain too much credit here. Most 50NL players, even regs, play fit or fold poker and don't think enough in ranges. This is a villain who probably doesn't get away from JJ/QQ on this board, and plays all his overpairs aggresiveley as a standard.

Also, although he could have flat called your 3bet with AA, I think most 50NL players will 4bet AA here. AA has to be outweighted in his range IMO. Also, keep in mind that there are far more combos of TT/JJ/QQ than there are of sets. Sets are certainly possible but less likely than overpairs IMO.

Jouster777

08-18-2007, 10:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are deep but this is a re-raised pot and an aggro villain will surely play TT-QQ like this. I felt here by shoving the flop. As played I shove the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is pretty much pot commiting himself with those betsizes ;(

Also, evthought he was loose, I haven`t seen him play a big pot without the goods. Don`t you think he would rather check turn here with QQ ?

[/ QUOTE ]I don't like felting the flop as its WA/WB and pushing only lets him get away when he's beat while maximizing our losses when we are behind. As played I think villain still has TT-QQ as a big part of his range because we have not shown great strength. I think I call turn and fold if villain pushes river...I know folding river sucks as its a small part of the pot at that point but a river bet is the only thing that would convince me villain doesn't have TT-QQ.

08-18-2007, 10:12 AM

Fiksdal,

True regarding the ranges. But wouldn`t villain rather be checking behind on that turn ? He`s in position, so it`s he could just check behind for pot control there. He knows that with his turn bet the rest of the money is going in no matter what. Does he really wanna stack of 240bb there ? With JJ-QQ he knows that he can only beat AK here, and I doubt that he thinks I would call his flop bet with that.

Babalatexi

08-18-2007, 10:20 AM

Wow, shove the turn or then the river! It's a 3-bet pot, you've under-repped your hand by just calling his flop raise and checking the turn. You're only losing to AA and (unlikely) sets, ahead of TT-QQ and AK/AQ. I definitely either go all-in on the turn here, or if feeling tricky/have good reads on villain min-raise the turn to get villain to shove/call and let us shove the river. No matter what, I wouldn't consider folding KK here in a 3-bet pot.

08-18-2007, 10:21 AM

Thanks for the reply Jouster77, but would villain really convert his hand into a bluff? Being able to control the potsize ? I don`t like calling here, I think it`s either shove or fold.

I must admit tho, I`m playing terribly weak tight lately. maybe I`m wrong and have to grow some balls

Jouster777

08-18-2007, 10:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply Jouster77, but would villain really convert his hand into a bluff? Being able to control the potsize ? I don`t like calling here, I think it`s either shove or fold.

I must admit tho, I`m playing terribly weak tight lately. maybe I`m wrong and have to grow some balls

[/ QUOTE ]I look at that smallish turn bet as setting up a river shove or as the equivalent of a river blocking bet allowing a check behind. I'll readily admit to overpassive tendencies though...I may be way off.

Fiksdal

08-18-2007, 10:31 AM

OP your table image plays a big role here. If you are like 14/11 or something then I think this is closer to a fold here.

08-18-2007, 10:57 AM

yeah I`m 16/10.

bozzer

08-18-2007, 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OP your table image plays a big role here. If you are like 14/11 or something then I think this is closer to a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

what???

Daniel LeClaire

08-18-2007, 11:01 AM

Thing is you have to put him squarely on a set to make this a good fold. Would he really raise a set here with position and such a dry board? I think he's range is more heavily weighted towards an overpair. Raising on a dry board with an overpair makes more sense here.

derosnec

08-18-2007, 11:16 AM

you need to have a plan on the flop.

for example, "if i call flop raise, i'm getting it all in somehow on a blank turn. if i am going to check-fold blank turn, then i am going to fold to the flop raise."

or else you're just spewing in my opinion. you put in a 1/3 of your stack and folded to a 1/2 pot bet on the turn when nothing significant developed (except for the straight if he had an OESD).

traz

08-18-2007, 11:36 AM

i think folding here is pretty bad. I probably crai on the turn.

traz

08-18-2007, 11:37 AM

z28dreams

08-18-2007, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you need to have a plan on the flop.

for example, "if i call flop raise, i'm getting it all in somehow on a blank turn. if i am going to check-fold blank turn, then i am going to fold to the flop raise."

or else you're just spewing in my opinion. you put in a 1/3 of your stack and folded to a 1/2 pot bet on the turn when nothing significant developed (except for the straight if he had an OESD).

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was going to post. If you're calling the flop raise, it means you are most likely putting him on another overpair.

What do you think of just calling down rather than shoving on the turn?

traz

08-18-2007, 12:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think folding here is pretty bad. I probably crai on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit-- I didn't realise stacks were so deep, so I'm not sure if I crai. But I definitely don't fold.

bgott224

08-18-2007, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fiksdal,

True regarding the ranges. But wouldn`t villain rather be checking behind on that turn ? He`s in position, so it`s he could just check behind for pot control there. He knows that with his turn bet the rest of the money is going in no matter what. Does he really wanna stack of 240bb there ? With JJ-QQ he knows that he can only beat AK here, and I doubt that he thinks I would call his flop bet with that.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are giving villain, who appears to be a standard laggish spewtard, way way way too much credit here.

Also, this is a pretty broad generalization but I think most players like this call with a set on such a dry board. I'd say TT-QQ is his most likely holding.I don't even rule A9 suited out.

creamfillin

08-18-2007, 12:27 PM

I think I would prefer to donk the turn and see how villain reacts to it. If he just calls I'm probably shoving the river.

ajmargarine

08-18-2007, 12:31 PM

yuckyuckyuck

agree with dero that flop and turn combo is spew

agree with others that say DON'T FOLD.

derosnec

08-18-2007, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think folding here is pretty bad. I probably crai on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit-- I didn't realise stacks were so deep, so I'm not sure if I crai. But I definitely don't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]'

Pot size. You can't just call a turn bet.

Fiksdal

08-18-2007, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why would you assume that villain is good at poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is crucial. imo OP gives villain too much credit for being able to read hands and put hero on a range and thus responding optimally

it's really more simple, villain has a big pair so he calls preflop and plays aggressively postflop, especially when hero underepresents his hand by calling the flop raise.

bozzer

08-18-2007, 12:47 PM

agree that you can't call flop and fold turn.

Combinations gives 9 sets : 18 overpairs max in his betting range, but we have to discount some of the overpairs from his betting range and even more so from his calling range. So i think I prefer avoiding playing this for stacks if poss, so I call down.

08-18-2007, 01:13 PM

IMO this guy wasn`t a lagtard. Kind of ugly stats, but he was playing decent postflop IMO.

I think my smallish flop bet was pretty bad here. He could have read it as me having AK. I thought I call his flop raise, cause he was probably betting with TT-QQ. I aggree that just calling flop and then check/folding is spew.

Is folding flop an alternative ?

Else I think calling him down on this board is best option, since we might get value out of TT-QQ. Am I getting this right ?

I`m playing my C- game right now btw ....

MusashiStyle

08-18-2007, 02:08 PM

this is a set alot or 69, your ahead of like qq and that 's it. seems like a difficult fold though. I would fold flop if your folding turn.

Kasane

08-18-2007, 04:10 PM

This is a sick hand which seems to have no perfect answers. Usually, that means the mistake was pretty early on in the hand, or we don't have enough info on villain. Loose but solid postflop, is what I think is being said.

With at least 3 players deep, oop, I think we have to bump it more pf if we want to go beyond the flop on this one. Villain can call with any pair, any suited connector -- correctly -- with this raise. We can't skinny his range at all towards overpairs. If he at least had called off Xdollars (the right figure is debatable in my mind -- and a whole 'nother discussion I'd like to hear) then we at least knew that we didn't give him the right odds to call to hit a set and stack 200BB+ from us.

If it's just so deep that no sensible preflop rr makes a small pp unprofitable to call with... then I just don't know.

The reason I said 3 players deep originally, though there's only 2 currently in the hand, is that by now a higher flop bet and rr size should more or less be your standard opening raise in many situations because of the high number of hands you're playing against others who are deep stacked.

I always struggle with this, however, as I know most villains start to see $3 opens and higher pf raises as wtf type moves that polarizes your range -- but it really shouldn't be doing so. It's creating an impression that is sometimes hard to judge how it is viewed.

pf rr $10-$11, gives him $8 or 9 to call and he's much less likely to call with a pp's less than JJ -- at least profitably.

Post flop, I'm still struggling with this hand. I really want to hear more, as I've played plenty pf to end up in this spot and wondered just what to do. Fri/Sat night, I might just go to the felt. Any other time I might not (lord, I see a lot of silly bluffs on weekend eves.)

Sheesh, what a spot though.

stickdude

08-18-2007, 04:26 PM

Not to be too harsh here but if you fold the turn to a less than 1/2 pot-sized bet it's time to find a new table because you're scared money.

With stacks this deep a set/straight is going to bet bigger on the turn because he wants to get it all in - at least $50. TT-QQ is going to make a smaller bet because you called the flop raise and you wouldn't do that with AK/AQ - they have to start being worried about you having AA/KK.

On this board with this action, I'm going broke here every time.

08-18-2007, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be too harsh here but if you fold the turn to a less than 1/2 pot-sized bet it's time to find a new table because you're scared money.
With stacks this deep a set/straight is going to bet bigger on the turn because he wants to get it all in - at least $50. TT-QQ is going to make a smaller bet because you called the flop raise and you wouldn't do that with AK/AQ - they have to start being worried about you having AA/KK.

On this board with this action, I'm going broke here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for replies, I think he is trying to achieve exactly the oposite you are saying. with this size of bet on the turn he is actualy pricing me in. It`s obvious that the rest is gonna go in on the river. Cause there would be approx 115$ in the pot and he would have only 44$ left to go on the river.

Also, as for the bigger pf raises. I don`t really like adjusting my bets/3bets preflop to stack sizes. You can`t 3bet enough not to give pps implied odds to call profitable with those stack sizes. It all comes down to postflop play IMO. If you 3bet so much as to not giving implied odds, you would become very, very predictibal and exploitable I think.

Stickdude, you said: if you fold the turn to a less than 1/2 pot-sized bet it's time to find a new table because you're scared money

What I`m trying to say is that his 1/2 pot size bet actualy represents a shove.

Note: Sry this is kind of mixed up I was trying to reply to both Kasane and Stickdude.

kaz2107

08-18-2007, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling him down on this board is best option, since we might get value out of TT-QQ. Am I getting this right ?

[/ QUOTE ] that is 100% wrong. if he has TT-QQ (which imo is a good portion of his range) then the LAST thing u wanna do is "call down" here. that is giving him the chance to save some monies on the river.

u said it urself. his turn bet is practically like a shove. but it isnt. if he has JJ and u c/c the turn and the river is a 4 and u plan to c/c again u r just begging him to check behind. but he doesnt check behind with AA or a set. so by not making the bet urself ur allowing him to get off the hook a bit with the lower part of his range and u r deff gonna hang when he has the top part of his range thus makin this -EV. punish him for this play when he does have TT-QQ by crai if u think u r ahead.

he is basically NEVER bluffing here so u arent gaining value by letting him bluff another street on the river so push it in on the turn and good. luck. i think u win the hand about half the time so given the amount in the pot already it is deff +ev to shove on the turn

stickdude

08-18-2007, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for replies, I think he is trying to achieve exactly the oposite you are saying. with this size of bet on the turn he is actualy pricing me in. It`s obvious that the rest is gonna go in on the river. Cause there would be approx 115$ in the pot and he would have only 44$ left to go on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't argue this point - if you call, the money is all going in on the river regardless.

Where I think you made a mistake is calling the raise on the flop and then folding the turn. By the time you call the raise on the flop, you've put ~40% of your stack in the middle. You shouldn't call if you're not committed to getting your entire stack in.

08-18-2007, 06:41 PM

Considering that villain is not a donk, what range is he putting me on when calling the flop raise ? If he is holding QQ then probably TT,JJ,KK,AA or a set of nines. Would he not be better of to check behind turn in position for pot control ? From that range he is only beating TT-JJ, but is behind to 99,KK,AA.

Since most posters recommended call raise and crai on turn it`s probably the right play tho.

Damn I`m so stubborn !

If I would have posted the hand from villains perspective, and the hand would have played out until my check on the turn what would you guys have recommended villain to do with a hand like TT-QQ after my check ? check behind for pot control or ?

gobby888

08-18-2007, 06:47 PM

Villain calls ur pre-flop reraise - I'd put him on a hand range of TT+, or AK.

Your donkbet on the flop was too small, bet 2/3 to pot bet. I'd push all-in after his re-raise, as this would eliminate his positional advantage.

As played...the turn check was horrible. However, the turn card would probably not help your opponent either as it's unlikely he's made a straight. Turn fold is terrible, you should have pushed.

08-18-2007, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain calls ur pre-flop reraise - I'd put him on a hand range of TT+, or AK.

Your donkbet on the flop was too small, bet 2/3 to pot bet. I'd push all-in after his re-raise, as this would eliminate his positional advantage.

As played...the turn check was horrible. However, the turn card would probably not help your opponent either as it's unlikely he's made a straight. Turn fold is terrible, you should have pushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gobby888, his 3bet calling range preflop is much, much wider IMO, given that we are 240bi deep. Being in position I would call with suited connectors, one gappers, 22-QQ etc.., trying to take down a big pot.

Daniel LeClaire

08-18-2007, 07:19 PM

kaz2107

08-18-2007, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Considering that villain is not a donk, what range is he putting me on when calling the flop raise ? If he is holding QQ then probably TT,JJ,KK,AA or a set of nines. Would he not be better of to check behind turn in position for pot control ? From that range he is only beating TT-JJ, but is behind to 99,KK,AA.

Since most posters recommended call raise and crai on turn it`s probably the right play tho.

Damn I`m so stubborn !

If I would have posted the hand from villains perspective, and the hand would have played out until my check on the turn what would you guys have recommended villain to do with a hand like TT-QQ after my check ? check behind for pot control or ?

[/ QUOTE ]this really sounds to me like u r just giving this guy FAR too much credit. i mean if u kno he is good then that is that but i dont remember u sayin that ever. just that he didnt seem like a donk. a ton of people who r decent but not good dont understand concepts like pot control or realize how strong or unstrong their hand is based on ranges and stack sizes n stuff. that is the difference.

if u said tha same hand. and then said that u were playin this hand against gelford or some other 2p2er who is good then this hand is 100% different (but prolly still tough because they can b bluffin and stuff too lol.)

i think that is the difference between ur statements and the majority of the responses u r receiving. different perceptions of the villian

corsakh

08-18-2007, 09:41 PM

Check flop. So much easier when you check flop.

kaz2107

08-18-2007, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check flop. So much easier when you check flop.

[/ QUOTE ]eww i dont think i check the flop very often. maybe like once a month or so but very rarely. it just sucks when he fires. now r we c/c or c/r??? neither seems great imo. and then if turn is a T or bigger i would b even more confused. i think checking here will make the hand more difficult to play. kinda like the small flop bet makes it hard. now we dont kno if he is just firing because we r showing weakness or actually has a hand. seems to much uncertantity if we do that to me