QQ gets checkraised on Th4h7c flop get checkraised. Standart ?

just sat down. He checkraises big to 17$ ...hmm?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($48.75)
BB ($47.30)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($58)</font>
MP ($61.45)
CO ($28.60)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($50.20)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $17

Hero ??

[derosnec]

without reads, small pot, utg limp, check-raise, my instinct is to throw it away and assume his range is heavy on 44/77 rather than a flush draw/TP here.

if instead, it went utg raises pf, you 3bet, he c/r's you, then i would get all in because of pot size and weighting his range more towards hands that you are ahead of/coinflipping with.

but i'm curious to hear what others think.

[kaz2107]

sigh. lol. i think this is ultra close against an unknown.

im thinkin he could very well b doin this with tpxk, combo draws, and then of course sets.

given that the c/r is rather big i am inclined to think he doesnt have a set as often as he has a draw/tp and wants to protect/ not give u outs to hit on the turn. so i prolly just shove it.

altho i wouldnt hate calling and shoving the turn on a blank. i prolly just shove it tho.

[RichAM]

any reads?

with the limp/call PF your looking at either 44/77/56s/89s

the best you can hope for is a 50/50 going into the turn

i dont really like to flip for a buy-in, and that is the best you can hope for with his range

i would fold

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
without reads, small pot, utg limp, check-raise, my instinct is to throw it away and assume his range is heavy on 44/77 rather than a flush draw/TP here.

if instead, it went utg raises pf, you 3bet, he c/r's you, then i would get all in because of pot size and weighting his range more towards hands that you are ahead of/coinflipping with.

but i'm curious to hear what others think.

[/ QUOTE ]i think u r r thinking about his preflop range wrong here. people love to limp concectors and one gappers from utg as well. so his range is much much bigger then pps. he could have JT or T9 or 78s or 98s or even 98o or 56s. but he obv has a set here some of the time. like i said tho i think his cr is big enough that i dont think he has a set as much. but that is kinda a random thought for me and i dont have a ton of evidence to back up this idea

[ QUOTE ]
sigh. lol. i think this is ultra close against an unknown.

im thinkin he could very well b doin this with tpxk, combo draws, and then of course sets.

given that the c/r is rather big i am inclined to think he doesnt have a set as often as he has a draw/tp and wants to protect/ not give u outs to hit on the turn. so i prolly just shove it.

altho i wouldnt hate calling and shoving the turn on a blank. i prolly just shove it tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

This describes pretty much my exact thinking. The size of the raise has me confused tho. He is checkraising with a little oversize bet. Most people would make a normal size bet here. A ? Sucks I have no reads.

[Jw513]

I fold. I think you see a set here more often than not.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.036% 48.04% 00.00% 12840 0.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 51.964% 51.96% 00.00% 13890 0.00 { TT, 77, 44, ATs, Jh9h, 9h8h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 7h6h, 6h5h, ATo }

TT is unlikely IMO, but since I don`t have a read I threw it in anyways, without TT we are a slight favorite. What you guys think about this range ?

[RichAM]

[ QUOTE ]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.036% 48.04% 00.00% 12840 0.00 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 51.964% 51.96% 00.00% 13890 0.00 { TT, 77, 44, ATs, Jh9h, 9h8h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 7h6h, 6h5h, ATo }

TT is unlikely IMO, but since I don`t have a read I threw it in anyways, without TT we are a slight favorite. What you guys think about this range ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Range looks good for me. As I stated above, I don't like to flip for a buy-in. The best your up against is 50/50.

[derosnec]

you're weighting ATs and ATo the same as sets. and you're assuming people CR with draws as often as they are with sets, which is not what i've seen at the tables. i see much more calling with draws (even big draws) than c/r's. but everyone's experience differs i guess.

derosnec, your probably right. I checkraise lots of draws, so I probably presume other players do too. This is probably wrong for 50NL.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
you're weighting ATs and ATo the same as sets. and you're assuming people CR with draws as often as they are with sets, which is not what i've seen at the tables. i see much more calling with draws (even big draws) than c/r's. but everyone's experience differs i guess.

[/ QUOTE ]at the same time tho i thinnk he has air or baiscally air here a few times here which arent in the range. he could have 2 overs and a fd. possibly just 2 overs. Axhh K7hh A7hh. i mean without a read there r a decent amount of hands he could have that we have a lot of equity against. i really think we r ahead like 55% here. giving how big the pot already is that makes this hand +ev.

i think the better question that i am most interested in is whether to call this and then get it all in on a blank turn or to shove over the top of this raise. i would love for some people to elaborate on that. imma go shower so i hope when i get back to have a few responses on that idea.

[derosnec]

no we don't call here to get it in on blank turn, because there are no combo draws that we would be behind and because we are letting two overs (A/K) draw as well. so turn will be a bitch. if flop is 7h8h4c. Ok, then there are two different monster combo draws that we are behind (well, three really, but who plays 9h6h like that pf?). also, here, i don't think he has an AK flush draw, so there are no draws really that we are behind significantly (about 55/45 in worst case scenario).

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
no we don't call here to get it in on blank turn, because there are no combo draws that we would be behind and because we are letting two overs (A/K) draw as well. so turn will be a bitch. if flop is 7h8h4c. Ok, then there are two different monster combo draws that we are behind (well, three really, but who plays 9h6h like that pf?). also, here, i don't think he has an AK flush draw, so there are no draws really that we are behind significantly (about 55/45 in worst case scenario).

[/ QUOTE ]why cant he have 98hh, 56hh, or even 7xhh??? those are all reasonable combo draws for an utg limp call imo. he even could have something like AJhh and have lots of equity against us that will have much less equity after the blank turn.

[derosnec]

we're flipping against those hands. so, with the pot size after villain 3bets, i think it is better to push because of the times he folds. i suppose calling could be more +EV but we are likely to make a mistake on the turn. What are we doing in a king comes on the turn? An ace? A jack? whatever? we might end up either checking behind and giving the flush draw a free card or we might end up betting and getting valuetowned.

i might be way off here, but that's my instinct so far (this is assuming we put him on a draw).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no we don't call here to get it in on blank turn, because there are no combo draws that we would be behind and because we are letting two overs (A/K) draw as well. so turn will be a bitch. if flop is 7h8h4c. Ok, then there are two different monster combo draws that we are behind (well, three really, but who plays 9h6h like that pf?). also, here, i don't think he has an AK flush draw, so there are no draws really that we are behind significantly (about 55/45 in worst case scenario).

[/ QUOTE ]why cant he have 98hh, 56hh, or even 7xhh??? those are all reasonable combo draws for an utg limp call imo. he even could have something like AJhh and have lots of equity against us that will have much less equity after the blank turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don`t like calling the flop here. To many hands that can outdraw us here. If we shove he will be calling with his draws. If we call, we are still behind to sets, and if he has air he`s giving up on turn anyways.

Tks for the replies guys. Always appreciate comments from posters I respect here.

Results: villain showed AA ;( wtf

Note: the other hand villain folded to my shove /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[derosnec]

lol, i was actually gonna type earlier that you should include AA in his range.

[ QUOTE ]
lol, i was actually gonna type earlier that you should include AA in his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, your right AA was also in his range, even if he`s oop. Some people just love to slowplay AA