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View Full Version : [50NL] Raise "to define my hand" or just call down?


ciro bonano
08-17-2007, 03:55 AM
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed)

SB ($86.40)
Hero ($52.00)
UTG ($44.80)
Button ($47.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $1.75</font>, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($3.75) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($7.75) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4.

River: ($15.75) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

Obviously reads help a lot here but I had none.

I'm a bit torn between the two concepts:
- Define your hand with a raise, so you won't keep calling off your stack with a medium hand (as Harrington suggests in his books)
- Raising only folds out worse hands, so why not just call down on this dry board and let him hang himself if he has a worse hand?

I find the second reasoning much more appealing, but I'm still not really happy about the way I played this hand.

Eddi
08-17-2007, 04:32 AM
Aren't you just letting QQ+ or a set stack you this way every single time? I'm a little confused why you think it's ok to call all the way w/o any idea of his holdings.

I don't like this play. I went along this exact same line once and the villain has hit a small set on the flop. Got pretty much stacked very nicely because I _assumed_ I had the best hand.

ciro bonano
08-17-2007, 04:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Aren't you just letting QQ+ or a set stack you this way every single time? I'm a little confused why you think it's ok to call all the way w/o any idea of his holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this line would suck against QQ+ or a set, but the best line against those would be to fold preflop/the flop. I have to find a best line against his entire _range_.

What if he's holding KJ QJ and thinks he is valuebetting? What if he has TT? AK? All those hands would get away cheap if I raised somewhere.

Eddi
08-17-2007, 04:43 AM
I cannot see AK firing 3 shots here a lot. Same goes for TT.
At best you're against KJ, maybe but not very likely QJ (this is assuming you don't have an image of a complete calling station, which you probably don't).

So consider the range being QQ+, KJ, AJ and sets (if he 3-barrels). What are you ahead of? KJ?

EDIT: I'd add to the range AhKh, AhQh, KhQh, QhJh and JhTh, where he could/would also 3-barrel and where you'd be behind by the river in this hand. I think overall this play is fine IF he doesn't PB the river. If he does I'm guessing your hand is no good.

crovax4444
08-17-2007, 05:05 AM
why arn't you raising PF? Then if he donk bets you on the flop, you have a clearer idea of where you stand.

Mistakes on an earlier street will lead to a lot more mistakes on later streets

Crovax

members_only
08-17-2007, 05:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
why arn't you raising PF? Then if he donk bets you on the flop, you have a clearer idea of where you stand.

Mistakes on an earlier street will lead to a lot more mistakes on later streets

Crovax

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold-calling pf is hardly a massive mistake, and has very little to do with what the OP was wondering about

I just noticed that this is blind vs blind, which along with the fact that he only 1/2 potted the flop and turn makes me think calling him down here is fine. You might well get some value from a worse jack by raising though

ciro bonano
08-17-2007, 05:27 AM
I stoved some ranges (I think you need to add some more random bluff hands or one AKo/TT combo), but it still isn't looking good on the river. I can agree with the river being a fold. So my main questions are about flop/turn play.

On the flop I could have raised for the same money which now allowed me to see a river card. Worse hands would have folded to the flop raise but they now have put in a turn bet, so for the same money I get more value out of worse hands, while losing the same against better hands, right?

[ QUOTE ]
why arn't you raising PF? Then if he donk bets you on the flop, you have a clearer idea of where you stand. Mistakes on an earlier street will lead to a lot more mistakes on later streets


[/ QUOTE ]
Again a bit of the same reasoning (and not much experience with sb opening ranges in a BvB battle). He will fold worse hands, I'm folding if he 4bets with QQ KK and forfeit my chance of spiking an ace. Furthermore, I keep the pot smaller to use my post-flop positional advantage. If I 3bet and he calls, I flop an ace or a jack I'm still not happy getting a lot of action.

Blake Kyles
08-17-2007, 05:29 AM
I don't like just calling him down. You're giving someone with a Q or K free shots to draw out on you. I think you could make a reasonable argument for smooth calling the fop because it is so dry, although I generally wouldn't do that with a hand so weak. But I think I'm raising the turn. You'll get more value out of your hand this way versus other J’s, you'll put pressure on someone with a draw if they've picked one up, and you're defining your hand versus a potentially bigger hand.

members_only
08-17-2007, 05:34 AM
I don't think KJ-JT fold to a flop raise

As played I also can't find a fold on the river

corsakh
08-17-2007, 06:03 AM
I like it. Raising is quite retarded.

M.Goodcat
08-17-2007, 06:07 AM
IMO, flop is a raise 5$
turn is a value bet
and if we get to the river with this chasing vilain, it is a fold lol.
He has a suited AK or AQ, not putting him on over pair, he is way behind on the flop and on the turn.
On this kind of hand and on many others obviously, there is guy who is favorite and an underdog, make him understand that his c-bet is S*** and that his AK no good.

bozzer
08-17-2007, 06:57 AM
i think this looks fine BvB, but every time it goes wrong i feel like the worlds worst player cos its so passive.

the problem is if he bets a little bit bigger on every street, then you're in trouble.

ciro bonano
08-17-2007, 07:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But I think I'm raising the turn. You'll get more value out of your hand this way versus
1) other J’s
2) you'll put pressure on someone with a draw if they've picked one up
3) and you're defining your hand versus a potentially bigger hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
1) If I raise small (minraise) that's true; if I raise bigger they would just fold.
2) There's no serious draw besides A:hearts:K:hearts: and I need to raise quite a bit to get him to fold. He can have a random Q or K but I think I get more value out of bluffs then the chance of him spiking his 3-outer. How great would it be if he has AK and hits an ace?
3) What is exactly the $ value of defining my hand? If he 3bets I can fold because I know I have the worst hand? If he fold I knew I had the best hand. Both cases are not good for me. For exactly the same amount I put in to raise the turn I can see a showdown! If he calls and leads the river I still don't know what he has so it's not that defined.

ciro bonano
08-17-2007, 07:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i think this looks fine BvB, but every time it goes wrong i feel like the worlds worst player cos its so passive.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never know if _other_ players understand it's BvB so maybe they aren't opening up their range. If villain was 2p2 then it's "zomg TPTK=monster BvB" but he's an unknown.

I also have a hard time stoving a range that bets the river where I have the required ~30% equity against, but my main concern is the flop/turn anyway.

comfortably_numb
08-17-2007, 07:18 AM
Due to his preflop raise (without reads) and being OOP after the flop I would assume a tight range, AQ, AK, QQ+
His flop bet could be c-bet (AQ and AK) or value already QQ+.
On his turn bet you must somehow define your hand; I would put in a raise of 6$.
If he shoves I'd fold. If he calls and bets the river I'd fold, too.
Maybe that's too tight, but given NL50 it's much more straight forward action than big moves...
I would not give him credit 3-barelling AQ or AK here, but difficult to say without any read. I lean towards abc-poker then...

tomonbass
08-17-2007, 07:22 AM
Anyone like a raise flop with the plan to check/check a safe turn....

As it is raise flop and if called you need to overbet that turn boards getting drawy and your probably ahead I like to take the pot down here in these situations...

kokiri
08-17-2007, 07:22 AM
I probably raise the turn here, expecting to get some value from worse hands, which I would also then expect to check to me on the river. If called and bet into on the river for size, I think I would probably fold.

TBH, if villain has a better hand and we get away with under 40BB in a TPTK vs 2P/set situation, I don't have a problem.

members_only
08-17-2007, 08:38 AM
OP, there's nothing very much for other players to 'understand' about a bvb situation: if it gets folded round to someone on the small blind, it's fairly easy for them to see that there's only the big blind left, that most of the time he won't have a hand, and so they should try to steal with a wider range than from other positions. They might not put it in those terms, but it's hardly a massive intuitive leap. Consequently, bvb hands will generally be won by weaker hands than eg if someone raises it utg and gets two callers.

There are plenty of situations where you might legitimately wonder whether an opponent 'understands' such and such but this is quite a 'natural' one. Imo

members_only
08-17-2007, 08:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Due to his preflop raise (without reads) and being OOP after the flop I would assume a tight range, AQ, AK, QQ+


[/ QUOTE ]

No way

Fiksdal
08-17-2007, 08:45 AM
3bet preflop

flop could either be a call or a small value raise, but I think I prefer a call on this very dry board so villain can keep thinking his pocket pair or whatever might be good.

monkeymaps
08-17-2007, 08:49 AM
I think this is good esp agianst a agro opponent. I might 3 bet this pre but thinnk calling IP is fine.

if this guy is going to keep betting worse let him. not many draws to worry about. raising for value only works agianst a few hands in his range and folds/get called by better hands most of the time.

bob_sacamano
08-17-2007, 08:59 AM
I'd raise the flop. I don't care much about how much I'll take from a hand like this cause there's always great spots to felt someone. What I really don't like is to lose to worst hands that outdraw me in a runner runner flush or something like that.

If you raise on the flop, you can have a good understanding where youre at. And he will probably call down with any worst jack, A6, A3, and stuff like that, maybe even with 54 suited...

From his bets, it seems that he got you beat, considering the already mentioned 3-barrels. How the hand ended?

Mrage
08-17-2007, 09:07 AM
I 3bet this often, but in position vs. an unknown I'm fine with calling in position (plus ppl play bad in BvB situations.)

Raise the flop. That's where this hand went wrong. If he calls and checks turn I'm still firing. If I have a read that villain is over-aggro then I might take a chance to just call him down like this, but against an unknown I'm looking for information while I can still get it cheap (on the flop.)