Florida To Get Blackjack and More

[RobertC]

From the Miami Herald:

"In closed-door negotiations with the Seminole Tribe, Gov. Charlie Crist has offered the tribe permission to run Las Vegas-style slot machines at its casinos as well as the exclusive right to run Las Vegas-style card games, like blackjack and baccarat, according to people close to the administration."

www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/194863.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/194863.html)

Do you think this could lead to higher limits for poker or higher buy-ins?

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
From the Miami Herald:

"In closed-door negotiations with the Seminole Tribe, Gov. Charlie Crist has offered the tribe permission to run Las Vegas-style slot machines at its casinos as well as the exclusive right to run Las Vegas-style card games, like blackjack and baccarat, according to people close to the administration."

www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/194863.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/story/194863.html)

Do you think this could lead to higher limits for poker or higher buy-ins?

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't think it will lead to higher poker stakes. As a matter of fact, once the Indians get Class III gaming, speculation is that they probably will cut back on poker.

[Legislurker]

Are the Seminoles pressed for land? Look at Winstar in Oklahoma, they put the poker room in a damned glorified tent and its PACKED with the Cali drop and 200max buy. Why drop poker when it gets people IN the casino, which is half the battle, turns a profit, and the possibility of a circuit stop.
Ask smaller strips around the country what a 3 week circuit stop means, especially Tunica with two. A month long stop could fill Tampa's hotels and every casino in town, especially off-season. I think part of the impetus originally for bigger poker was a Tour stop. I just don't see how hard it would be to find a 50-75 table super room somewhere on Seminole land, but I don't know the local property situation.

[soulvamp]

I didn't say they are going to cut back on poker, just that there is speculation that they would. It's a fact that slot machines and casino table games generate much more revenue per square foot than poker does. But whether it's good business practice to use poker as a sort of loss leader to get people in the casino I don't know, as I'm not in the business.

As far as expanding with more buildings, the Hard Rock complex is pretty jampacked as it is. The Seminoles are trying hard to build another Hard Rock-type complex to replace the Coconut Creek casino but so far, the neighbors have been able to kill those plans. Bottom line is that there isn't a whole lot of land left for them to expand further.

Also, Class III gaming has nothing to do with poker, which is Class I gaming. Honestly, I don't see the Seminoles pushing the issue with raising the poker stakes, as it seems to me that they're at a point now where it's not possible to generate more rake by increasing the stakes. So why bother when it would only serve to piss off state government?

Maybe it's a possibility that they could try to draw big events like a WPT or something once or twice a year with high-stakes games. Sort of like they do in the Bahamas. But I can't see them going after bigger poker on an everyday basis.

[cmitch]

FWIW - Hard Rock Tampa is currently undergoing a renovation that is adding 50,000 sf of casino floor space (among other things). Coincidental timing?

[Legislurker]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW - Hard Rock Tampa is currently undergoing a renovation that is adding 50,000 sf of casino floor space (among other things). Coincidental timing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any idea what a barebones studio runs around Tampa where I don't have to go to sleep hearing crack deals?

[bigslickmark]

I heard from a seminole tribesman that they will get all class III games (blackjack, craps, etc.) by the end of the month. They plan to offer only high stakes poker and leave the low stakes poker for the pari mutuels.

[cmitch]

[ QUOTE ]
They plan to offer only high stakes poker and leave the low stakes poker for the pari mutuels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please, please, please be true.

[TPaulk99]

soulvamp, I think the speculation of "cut back on poker" is just bad wording. Having full fledged pits in and of itself cuts back on poker. The people running the Seminole joints know this. Lots of people playing poker today are just action junkies and the only viable option in Florida right now is poker. It will certainly have a impact but it is my understanding that poker(ie stakes) is in the negotiations currently ongoing. The Indians want high stakes, they know the value of having them as well as being able to bring circuit events to Florida.I was told it is a priority on their side and one they expect to get in the compact.

P.S. Remember the first week when the Tribe was allowing anything goes? You think that was a accident or a miscommunication as they claimed when they went back to the $100.00 limit? I don't.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
soulvamp, I think the speculation of "cut back on poker" is just bad wording. Having full fledged pits in and of itself cuts back on poker. The people running the Seminole joints know this. Lots of people playing poker today are just action junkies and the only viable option in Florida right now is poker. It will certainly have a impact but it is my understanding that poker(ie stakes) is in the negotiations currently ongoing. The Indians want high stakes, they know the value of having them as well as being able to bring circuit events to Florida.I was told it is a priority on their side and one they expect to get in the compact.

P.S. Remember the first week when the Tribe was allowing anything goes? You think that was a accident or a miscommunication as they claimed when they went back to the $100.00 limit? I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't understand your point. For some reason, the words aren't making any sense to me.

In any event, none of us really know anything as far as details. So we'll just have to wait and see. The only thing that really seems certain is that there will be full-out Class III gaming at the Indian casinos in a month or two.

[PrimogenitoX]

[ QUOTE ]
Are the Seminoles pressed for land? Look at Winstar in Oklahoma, they put the poker room in a damned glorified tent and its PACKED with the Cali drop and 200max buy.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not 200max buy. I just played there last night and bought in for $2,000. Also, last week I played and bought in for $5,000.

[Legislurker]

I was there in March and the 1/2 was 200 max. They were opening a new room that looked like it was in a tent. There was a huge storm as well and I thought the roof was going to collapse. My main reason for never going back was the Cali drop and excessive rake. They had up to 25 blind games if I remember right, and some limit games, not as restrictive as Fla by a mile.

[PrimogenitoX]

Oh, ok, yea..I didn't see where you said you played 1/2..I guess that game is 200max...I played the 5/10 which is 2,000 max and the 10/25 which was 5,000 max.

[CybrPunk]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Remember the first week when the Tribe was allowing anything goes? You think that was a accident or a miscommunication as they claimed when they went back to the $100.00 limit? I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

The excuse given by one of their officers was that he was out of town and not included in that decision making process.

Somehow I don't think this even slightly resembles the truth.

A friend of mine was recently hired at the Seminole HR and he says the management is already working on a few changes. One possible plan, apparently, is to move the poker room into the room that is currently the non-smoking slot area. Another includes two separate poker areas - with one for high stakes games exclusively.

A Miami Herald article (http://www.miamiherald.com/548/story/194863.html) that I read seems to express the same opinion... that the door is now open to class 3 gaming and the state can't do anything but ensure that it gets a cut of the revenues.

One thing is for sure. The management at the Seminole HR in Hollywood is gearing up for this fully expecting to get everything that is being speculated upon and both the Hollywood and Tampa locations are already building new gaming space.

Obviously that guarantees nothing... but it sure does seem to look favorable.

[jrock901]

The Rock in Tampa had a press release about the renovation on thier website the weekend before the new limits went into place. Seems the plan for expansion had nothing to do with poker, unless someone can come forward and provide evidence. That said, it would only make good business sense to try and raise the limits or at least the cap on some of the games. I went down the Sunday the new limits were run, (before the state made them change) and the place was insane. Even with the betting limits now, they aren't doing half bad. I don't think they will expand the poker room anytime soon but time will tell.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
The Rock in Tampa had a press release about the renovation on thier website the weekend before the new limits went into place. Seems the plan for expansion had nothing to do with poker, unless someone can come forward and provide evidence. That said, it would only make good business sense to try and raise the limits or at least the cap on some of the games. I went down the Sunday the new limits were run, (before the state made them change) and the place was insane. Even with the betting limits now, they aren't doing half bad. I don't think they will expand the poker room anytime soon but time will tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I live in S.Fla., was in Tampa area over the weekend and drove over to check out the HR there. Looked to me like the expansion is for a shopping/restaurant area like they have at the HR here, nothing to do with the casino.

[Fishhead24]

The BJ will in all liklihood pay 6/5 for blackjack........don't get to excited folks.

[cmitch]

[ QUOTE ]
I live in S.Fla., was in Tampa area over the weekend and drove over to check out the HR there. Looked to me like the expansion is for a shopping/restaurant area like they have at the HR here, nothing to do with the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a $120 Million renovation that is adding 50,000 sf of casino floor space (among other things)

[TGPDLR]

The expansion at the HR Tampa (This phase anyway) is for restaruant and shops. HOWEVER. There is another phase (so I am told by HR employees) that will expand the gaming area. For now, I believe they will blanket the new shopping area with the slots that are in the former ball rooms, and that area will become the table gaming area. My personal hope is that the limits on poker will remain the same so that other rooms like the one I work in will have a level playing field for business. Who knows. Maybe they will downsize the poker area and Tampa Greyhound and the other rooms in the Tampa St. Pete area will benefit. I hope that the Govenor will think before acting for the benefit of all Florida.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
The expansion at the HR Tampa (This phase anyway) is for restaruant and shops. HOWEVER. There is another phase (so I am told by HR employees) that will expand the gaming area. For now, I believe they will blanket the new shopping area with the slots that are in the former ball rooms, and that area will become the table gaming area. My personal hope is that the limits on poker will remain the same so that other rooms like the one I work in will have a level playing field for business. Who knows. Maybe they will downsize the poker area and Tampa Greyhound and the other rooms in the Tampa St. Pete area will benefit. I hope that the Govenor will think before acting for the benefit of all Florida.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know whether the governor really has much leverage at all. Seems to me -- and this is purely a guess on my part -- that the only real bone he can ask for is that they hold the line on poker, which they very well could do to keep their relationship intact. I really don't see how the Seminoles would benefit all that much by pressing for high-stakes poker. They could make more money devoting their resources to table games.

[CybrPunk]

Latest update from the AP, as posted in the St. Petersburg Times:

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/08/17/State/Will_state__tribe_tak.shtml

The article pegs Tuesday the 21st as the deadline for the State and The Tribe to reach an agreement.

Let's keep our fingers crossed, folks. With any luck this will mean the return of high stakes poker to the Sunshine State.

[RobertC]

I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

[Legislurker]

I think appearances are important too, Crist can't totally ignore the crucifixed fascists. Maybe he thinks they appreciate his stall move? Its never too early to think about 2012.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

[Legislurker]

good, are you calling them on the phone and saying yorue staying away because? you sre saying they actually have open tables?

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
good, are you calling them on the phone and saying yorue staying away because? you sre saying they actually have open tables?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not staying away because of the time charge. I'm staying away because I don't play no-limit.

[eddytom]

Here is a story just released today by the Sun-Sentinal in South Florida, it's a pretty extensive and in depth article about this whole issue...

Gov. Charlie Crist and the Seminole Tribe of Florida are down to the "nitty gritty" issues as they push to have a deal in place this week giving the tribe Las Vegas-style slot machines and potentially other gambling options, according to an attorney for the Seminoles.

The U.S. Department of Interior warned Crist in June to have an agreement largely ironed out by this week or risk the federal government instead allowing the Seminoles to have the slot machines without state regulatory oversight. If that happened, the state could lose out on millions of dollars.

Barry Richard, one of the Seminoles' attorneys, said the goal of both sides is to have an agreement by this week, but it's unclear if it will happen so soon.

"It's fair to say that [negotiations] have intensified because we are pushing to get things done and debating some of the thornier questions," Richard said. "Some of those are in the money area and the extent to which the state imposes some of its regulatory desires within the reservation."

George LeMieux, Crist's chief of staff and his point man in negotiations, said he expects the agreement to be reached this week.

"There are a couple of significant issues left to be ironed out, but the tribe and the state are negotiating in good faith," LeMieux said.

Even if Crist successfully negotiates a deal, the question lingers whether the Legislature will need to approve it. If the governor proceeds without a legislative vote, a court challenge to his authority seems inevitable, said Robert Jarvis, a Nova Southeastern University law school professor and gambling law expert.

Crist's staff members and tribal representatives have spent the past three months periodically meeting to hash out an agreement over the tribe's gambling rights, commonly known as a compact. A compact would grant the tribe the ability to offer more lucrative gambling options while the state would get some of the revenue as well as having as some regulatory oversight.

The Seminoles have argued that since Broward racetrack casinos got traditional slot machines, the tribe legally is entitled to have the devices at its seven casinos. The Seminole Tribe's casinos currently feature bingo-style slot machines, where players compete against each other. Those slots are considered less profitable than traditional slots, which are individually programmed for payouts.

In addition, the tribe wants table games, such as roulette and blackjack. Table games would further solidify the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino complexes as destination spots and fuel expansion at the other tribal casinos. The tribe has averaged an annual profit of more than $500 million from its gambling operations statewide since opening the Hard Rock complexes, according to court records.

U.S. Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne wrote Crist in June that if both sides failed to "reach an agreement on all or most of the outstanding issues within the next 60 days, I will review my options at that time." The 60-day window will expire by Wednesday.

The Interior Department warned the state last year that it was ready to issue regulations that would allow the Seminoles to have traditional slots. But the federal government let a November deadline pass without taking action, prompting the Seminoles to file a federal lawsuit demanding a judge force the Interior Department to allow them to have the gambling devices. The lawsuit is pending.

Gaming law experts warn though that if the Seminoles tried to get the machines without a compact, the state likely would file a legal challenge that could drag on for years.

Kempthorne's office has requested a phone conference with the governor's office for sometime this week to check on the negotiations, LeMieux said.

After Crist and the Seminoles reach an agreement, it remains unclear if the governor has the authority to finalize the deal.

Five state supreme courts — in New Mexico, Kansas, Rhode Island, New York and Wisconsin — have ruled their respective governors needed legislative approval to finalize compacts. In Mississippi, a federal court upheld the governor's ability to bind the state to a compact.

Jarvis said in each of these cases, the court had to look at the state's constitution to see if the governor had such power. It doesn't appear the Florida constitution grants such authority to the governor, he said.

If the governor believes he has the power to finalize the deal, he risks a legal challenge that could take months to resolve, Jarvis said. If Crist seeks the Legislature's approval for an agreement, it's unclear how long that could take.

LeMieux said it's "an open question" whether a legislative vote will be needed, but the governor thinks he has the ability to enter into a compact. He said Crist has been consulting with legislative leaders since negotiations began.

Kathryn Rand, a University of North Dakota law professor and gambling law expert, said it's key to resolve the question of legislative approval for a compact.

"The situation all parties want to avoid is negotiating a compact and having the tribe and state proceed with Class III gaming and revenue sharing and only later to have that brought into question," Rand said.

A spokeswoman for House Speaker Marco Rubio, R-West Miami, said he's examining whether legislative ratification will be needed but hasn't taken a formal stance.

"It's not a new issue, but not a resolved issue," said Jill Chamberlin, Rubio's spokeswoman.



Had to copy the whole story because the link doesn't work... hope that is okay... http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-flbcompact0820nbaug20,0,2505601.story

[TheEngineer]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-flbcompact0820nbaug20,0,2505601.story

[jrock901]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time charge at which Hard Rock? The Hard Rock in Tampa has no time charge at all. Just a normal rake. And people aren't staying away at all.

[bocablkr]

At the Seminole and Hollywood Casinos. I think at the Coconut Creek one as well.

[TPaulk99]

[ QUOTE ]

A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.



[/ QUOTE ]

You believe that?

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.



[/ QUOTE ]

You believe that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe anything that a dealer or a floor manager or anyone says is going to happen because not even the governor or tribal leaders know. They're not even sure if it would be legal for the governor to strike a deal unilaterally without legislative action.

I posted that to make the point that there are a gazillion rumors flying around, practically none of them based in fact.

By the way, the deadline has been extended:

Associated Press story (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-821seminolecompact,0,7794704.story)

[bigslickmark]

I agree. Every day there are rumors but we won'y know until Sept. 11.

[parisron]

yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard the place is going to burn down next week.

[parisron]

when i say something its true. I have inside sources. so dont be pissed because you are paying time rake and they are staying with pot rake here in Tampa.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
when i say something its true. I have inside sources. so dont be pissed because you are paying time rake and they are staying with pot rake here in Tampa.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I'm not paying time rake.

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time charge at which Hard Rock? The Hard Rock in Tampa has no time charge at all. Just a normal rake. And people aren't staying away at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

soulvamp? Any comment? Seems to me they either do or they don't!

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spoke to a manager at the HR Hollywood and he said that once they get full casino games that they are going back to high-stakes poker games.

I don't think the State of Florida is looking to limit the Seminoles from having high stakes poker. The State is just trying to negotiate the highest cut they can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

A dealer today told me that the Hard Rock won't even have poker. They'll use the space for table games (no roulette or craps, just card games) and leave poker for the old Seminole Casino up the road.

By the way, the time charge at the Hard Rock has killed poker action there. People are staying away in droves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Time charge at which Hard Rock? The Hard Rock in Tampa has no time charge at all. Just a normal rake. And people aren't staying away at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

soulvamp? Any comment? Seems to me they either do or they don't!

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif I have no idea what it is you want me to comment on.

Hard Rock Hollywood instituted a time rake for no-limit holdem, and people this past weekend chose to go to other rooms instead of the Hard Rock, which has been unusually slow for a few days. I don't know anything about the Hard Rock in Tampa.

I don't pay a time charge because I don't play no-limit holdem.

There are a million rumors flying around about what's going to happen with Class III gambling and poker at the Seminole casinos in the state, but the fact is no one has any clue what is going to happen.

[NY60]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard the place is going to burn down next week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard the place is going to burn down.........LOL that is f%$$#***&^ HILARIOUS!!!

[NY60]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard the place is going to burn down next week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'M STILL LAUGHING!!!!

[Legislurker]

Can we get this bumped over to brick&mortar. We have went from state legal issues to rumours from floors and dealers and "sources". Maybe a Florida sticky there for a week or so is a good idea.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes will have to wait till sept. 11th to know for sure. but from what I here they will raise the poker stakes back to what it was the 1st 5 days of july. 1/2nl 300max, 2/5/nl 500max and bigger games that would start right away. And they will be getting blackjack and other games but wont start till January probly. will take time to hire people set up cameras etc. I am speaking about Tampa Hard Rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard the place is going to burn down next week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'M STILL LAUGHING!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[CybrPunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we get this bumped over to brick&mortar. We have went from state legal issues to rumours from floors and dealers and "sources". Maybe a Florida sticky there for a week or so is a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in this thread are still focused on a Sept. 11th deadline imposed by a Federal board in regard to a State-negotiated tribal compact. You're welcome to stop reading this thread if that's your choice but it's still a thread relevant to poker legislation within the state of Florida. There's conjecture and theories interjected into most threads in this forum. Why should this one be any different?

[4_2_it]

I'm going to leave the thread here until the Seminoles and the Governor reach an agreement at which point I'll leave the thread open for a few days afterwards for reaction and then lock it and ask the discussion move to B&M where it will then belong.

This is how the last change in Florida (raising the the limits as July 1) was handled and it seemed to work fine.

[jrock901]

Anyone heard any more news on this?

[Legislurker]

I am curious too, I scanned the first pages of B&M and saw nothing.

[soulvamp]

Still no agreement. Deadline has been pushed back yet again while lawyers and politicians compare penis sizes.

[Magicmanu]

Lawyers win.

[soulvamp]

Supreme Court hears arguments on Broward County slots (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-917slots,0,854476.story?coll=sofla_tab01_layout)

Possibly a huge step backward. Cliff's notes: The state Supreme Court is hearing an argument that the petition that put slots on the 2004 ballot was fraudulent. Possible outcome: Class III gaming could be revoked.

[GabrielSlade]

I live in FL. I was there when the limits were removed on July 1st. The games were some of the best I've ever played in at the 10/25NL level.

I made 7k my first session and didn't even run that great. Needless to say, I can't wait for it to happen again.

I realize that it may never go back to the beautiful 4 days we had in early July. However, I want to be ready to jump on it early if it comes back around.

My problem is this...I've been postponing taking a poker trip for 7 weeks now, in hopes that the Hard Rock will be allowed to have those juicy games again. I am paranoid that as soon as I leave town for L.A., they will get the juicy games back.

Does anyone have any clue as to whether or not it is "safe" for me to leave town for a week on Monday or so? Does anyone think it might go through next week? Advice is welcome.

Thanks.

[parisron]

Quote "Class III gaming could be revoked."
never happen. whether signitures to get it put on the ballot where fraudulent or not. It still passed a vote. Just another group of idiots trying to stop our fun. Soulvamp you must work at the track thats why you dont want indians to get full gambling.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote "Class III gaming could be revoked."
never happen. whether signitures to get it put on the ballot where fraudulent or not. It still passed a vote. Just another group of idiots trying to stop our fun. Soulvamp you must work at the track thats why you dont want indians to get full gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't. I oppose it on ethical principal. As I said before, I think it stinks that the Indians are given such latitudes now just because their ancestors made a bad business deal a couple of centuries ago.

Besides, the Seminoles have never signed a treaty. Technically, we're still at war with them.

[TPaulk99]

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said before, I think it stinks that the Indians are given such latitudes now just because their ancestors made a bad business deal a couple of centuries ago.

Besides, the Seminoles have never signed a treaty. Technically, we're still at war with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could their ancestors have made a bad deal if they never signed a treaty. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Legislurker]

What will indians do when gaming is mainstream? After factoring out narrow self-interest, I don't really like seeing indians get the special treatment either. They're going to go back to being poor people stuck on bad land a long way from jobs or education. Sorta like Arabs when the oil runs out.

[wonderboy1]

anyone know what is going on!!!havent seen any info anywhere on the net or the papers regarding the current status. last i heard they moved the deadline to sept 21 and no word since????thought someone would have a position by now. todays sentinal said boyd pushed back completion date of dania jai lai to the end of 2009...thats it /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[iBETuLOST]

Well here is the BAD NEWS reguarding Poker & the Indian Compact.

The final draft of the compact contains the following under Paragraph L.

"L. The Tribe shall conduct Poker in compliance with all provisions of Florida law,including restrictions on ante and pot amounts.
However each facility may hold up to 4 tournaments per year that are not subject to the restrictions/limitations imposed by Florida law, provided that the net win from each tournament is donated to a charitable orginazation,organized persuant to 501(c)(3).

The new deadline for the Compact to be signed is Sept. 30th and contains a Paragraph stating it will be put to a vote by the Legislature to ratify it.If the Legislative Branch votes it down or attempts to change it the Indians can void it or have the option to agree to any changes in writting.

The Compact still allows Class III Slots and "Card Games" as defined in the original Draft of the Compact and prohibits Craps and Roulette ect.

So the Indian casinos will have to run the card rooms under the same restrictions currently in place at the Parimutuals!
Unless or untill the limits are raised at the Parimutals,
(I have heard rumors of the Max buy in being raised to $300).

If the Compact is voted down and voided,the Department of the Interior will almost certainly Rule the Indians have the right to operate Class III slots and the state will recieve $0.

/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[sejje]

That sucks.

All the dealers in Tampa are saying the same thing, apparently passed on from up above: they claim higher stakes poker (as seen on July 1st) and slots are in the bag, and that they're still negotiating the rest.

It's a rumor, but at least it's one backed by more than one schmuck dealer.

[PunkNoodle]

THIS JUST IN!!!

There is yet ANOTHER DEADLINE announced for the South Florida Seminole casinos. They involve the two Hard Rock casinos. A deal has been reached to finally resolve on October 6 which of the two casinos smell less like feces. There will be judges, senators, and I even heard the governor himself will be in attendance for this historical event. Depending on the outcome, the Seminoles and the House will vote and we should have class III gaming in, oh I'd say.... a few months.

[soulvamp]

Crist negotiations with Seminoles to resume Monday (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-flbcompact0930nbsep30,0,6941053.story?coll=sofla_t ab01_layout)

Cliff's notes: Nothing's going to happen before the lawyers spend a few years sucking the taxpayers' teat.

[Bossman9]

IMHO........

Regardless of what happens with the compact, the seminoles will interpret the actual legislation to mean "required buyin not to exceed $100".......you guys remember the wording? It sounded like the min buyin....besides they already have an $1100 Big Slick tourney which is not in compliance with current state law.....they were running that pre 7/1 ..... so IMHO....if they feel they are getting jerked around to long, they will push the envelope again with higher buyins......wishful thinking??? Opinions??

Of cousre this can never make up for the revenue they would generate with table games.....

My thoughts are changing re: Seminoles .... I think the Governor needs to be careful that he doesn't screw the parimutuals and future gambling interests in the state...

The thing that pisses me off the most is that the Florida Lottery is the biggest joke of all......How many people that don't have a pot to piss in throw their money away on that nonsense every day?? Also, how many of the Anti-Gambling people are tossing their money at the Lottery every day.........supporting education my ass!! They don't even have enough books for the kids to take them home in public school.....

Sorry about rambling, scattered thoughts....... /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Bossman9]

BTW... The Parimutals are getting taxed ridiculously on the slots...

Also, people are throwing money at machines that are designed to take your money...house edge is ridiculous....IMHO

[DeadMoneyDad]

[ QUOTE ]
Crist negotiations with Seminoles to resume Monday (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-flbcompact0930nbsep30,0,6941053.story?coll=sofla_t ab01_layout)

Cliff's notes: Nothing's going to happen before the lawyers spend a few years sucking the taxpayers' teat.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a shock!

The only thing worse than a private lawyer is a career government lawyer. Sorry to all my lawyer friends.

D$D

[NL Rounder]

October 2nd Sun-Sentinel Update (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-flbgamble1002nboct02,0,5937588.story)

Now Governor Crist thinks that a deal will be reached within a month....I'm now leaning towards the "over".

[bigslickmark]

It appears that the new compact will eliminate 24 hour poker in Florida:

The Tribe shall conduct poker in each of its Facilities in compliance with
provisions of Florida law that limit hours of operation, wagers and pot sizes. However,
the Tribe may hold up to 6 celebrity/charity poker tournaments per year in each of its
Facilities that are not subject to the limitations/restrictions imposed by Florida law,
provided that a minimum of 70 percent of the Net Poker Income from each poker
tournament is donated to a charitable organization organized pursuant to 501(c)(3) of the
Internal Revenue Code.

Any thoughts?

[NY60]

That's my reading of it.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A TOUGH PILL TO SWALLOW....LOTS OF JOBS WILL BE LOST IF THE POKER ROOMS HAVE TO GO TO 12 HOUR OPERATIONS.

Several dealers that I know of intentionally work the late shifts because they want to be home when their kids come home from school, and so that they can go to baseball practice and so on.

YEP THIS IS GOING TO BE ROUGH

[parisron]

someone please post link to latest compact. Rubio will shoot down compact anyway if it has blackjack etc. on it. so hours would not change then right?

[bigslickmark]

Here is the link:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/media/acrobat/2007-10/32951986.pdf

Take a look at Section V. (L.)

I believe this was done to appease the Parimutuels.
Since this allows a casino to offer any 12 hours, some casinos that are not doing as well (Dania Jai ALai, Old Hollywood Seminole Casino) may change their hours to capture the late night early morning crowd.

I feel that in Hollywood, you might see the old casino offer poker in the AM and Hard Rock in the PM.

Good for the Parimutuels, bad for poker players in the state.

[bigslickmark]

By the way the proposed rules are out regulating poker in Florida:

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/docume...-2007-09-28.pdf (http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/documents/61D-11PreliminaryTextofProposedRuleDevelopment--2007-09-28.pdf)

Nothing crazy imo. If the Indians sign the compact, they will agree to the same types of rules seen here. If not, 24 hour poker will continue and they also may try to increase stakes due to their liberal interpretation of Florida legislative law.

If you are a poker fan you may not want the compact to pass. Or if it does pass, the pari mutuels will be hurt throughout the state and may pressure the legislature to liberalize poker rules further with respect to hours, buy in and bet size. It's hard to say how this will play out.

The other thing that is interesting is that Dade and Broward will have a special carve out in the exclusivity clause. Basically, what is says is that pari-mutuels in Dade and Broward can also offer Class 3 games and as long as the Seminoles do $1.37 BN in profits (in 7 casinos that should not be difficult) the Seminoles will still have to pay the state. This, to me, anticipates that Dade and Broward will be able to offer full Class III gaming in the future. If you are in another county in Florida it will be a long time before Class 3 will come outside of the Indian Casinos.

[Shroomy]

I was sceptical of some of the information I was hearing from the employees at the paramutual sites. They said they were looking for more gambling options and increased hours.

Perhaps they plan on increasing their hours also which would please both the seminoles and them and make the seminoles less effected by the clause.


I don't see how the paramutuals could change anything else like the limited buy in or getting table games without it getting on a ballot though. (but I could easily be wrong)

[soulvamp]

Deadline extended to consider Seminole casino proposal
October 6, 2007

The U.S. Department of the Interior has extended until Oct. 15 its deadline to consider giving the Seminole Tribe of Florida permission to have Las Vegas-style slots in its casinos.

Gov. Charlie Crist and tribal officials are continuing to negotiate a compact that would expand the tribe's gambling rights and agree on giving the state a cut of the profits.

Both sides have said they hope to reach a deal within a month. In a letter from federal officials to Crist, released Friday by the state, Carl Artman, the assistant secretary for Indian Affairs, wrote that he had been told negotiations are going well.

Federal officials have warned the state that if it can't reach an agreement with the tribe, the federal government could step in and permit the tribe to have the slots. The state would then get no cut.

[CybrPunk]

It should be noted that The Dept. of the Interior has already stated that they would greatly prefer the tribe and the State reach an agreement on their own. They've gone so far as to say that, as long as negotiations are ongoing, seem to be in good faith and are making progress, they would not step in and impose their judgment in the matter.

[soulvamp]

In any event, there will not be a positive impact on the poker landscape.

[cmitch]

Anyone hear anything new on this lately?

[ChipLeeder]

However, it appears that any result will end up in court with big delays.

See linked article from 10/16/07


SunSentinel Article 10/16/07 (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-flbcompact1016nboct16,0,3226509.story)