look mom no hands [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Lurker.

08-03-2007, 01:13 AM

Villain is a multi tabling TAG (20/18/2) and has raised my cbet before. I think a decent chunk of his range is air here....thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $55.45
BB: $55.00
UTG: $42.50
CO: $44.25
Hero (BTN): $141.30

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 Players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, SB calls $1.50, BB folds

Flop: ($4) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.55, SB raises to $8.00, Hero calls $5.45

Turn: ($20) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $11.55

AMadison

08-03-2007, 01:26 AM

I think you would likely be better served re-raising the flop if you feel he is on a complete steal. Because since you said he was tight and multitabling, I will assume he's playing either a pair or 2 bigs here. Therefore why would you just call and allow him to catch one of his overs? You aren't winning this pot unless he folds, why let him catch on the turn.

Lurker.

08-03-2007, 01:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you would likely be better served re-raising the flop if you feel he is on a complete steal. Because since you said he was tight and multitabling, I will assume he's playing either a pair or 2 bigs here. Therefore why would you just call and allow him to catch one of his overs? You aren't winning this pot unless he folds, why let him catch on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
i didnt raise the flop, because since i was IP, i figured it would be cheaper to call, and see if he led the turn (if he did i would fold) and if he checked try to take it down...I felt this was cheaper in the long run because if he has a hand and i call his flop raise, he'll bet the turn and i can fold. But if he has a big hand and i 3bet, i lose more...

creamfillin

08-03-2007, 01:36 AM

Bet the turn like a man.

sightless

08-03-2007, 01:38 AM

let me guess he c/red you again ):?

Lurker.

08-03-2007, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn like a man.

[/ QUOTE ]
ty, i know my sizing sucks. 13.50 ftw?

jerryf1914

08-03-2007, 03:09 AM

i think this hand is just so marginal theres nothing +ev about it at all and you shoudl just fold the flop and try again next time.i would have tried a delay cbet here especially if he kept raising your flop cbets.

shoxbb6

08-03-2007, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i think this hand is just so marginal theres nothing +ev about it at all and you shoudl just fold the flop and try again next time.i would have tried a delay cbet here especially if he kept raising your flop cbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is marginal at all. Whats the point in waiting for a hand when you can play poker?

jerryf1914

08-03-2007, 03:23 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
i think this hand is just so marginal theres nothing +ev about it at all and you shoudl just fold the flop and try again next time.i would have tried a delay cbet here especially if he kept raising your flop cbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is marginal at all. Whats the point in waiting for a hand when you can play poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

jack high is the best hand right here. there are so many better spots to win why put money in here when theres not a good chance of winning?

RunDownHouse

08-03-2007, 03:25 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
i think this hand is just so marginal theres nothing +ev about it at all and you shoudl just fold the flop and try again next time.i would have tried a delay cbet here especially if he kept raising your flop cbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is marginal at all. Whats the point in waiting for a hand when you can play poker?

[/ QUOTE ]
No point in pushing 60/40 edges, mang. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=11509639&page=0&vc=1 )

shoxbb6

08-03-2007, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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i think this hand is just so marginal theres nothing +ev about it at all and you shoudl just fold the flop and try again next time.i would have tried a delay cbet here especially if he kept raising your flop cbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is marginal at all. Whats the point in waiting for a hand when you can play poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

jack high is the best hand right here. there are so many better spots to win why put money in here when theres not a good chance of winning?

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you cbet or all? Or do you just wait for a better spot to put your money in?

Lurker.

08-03-2007, 03:37 AM

Lurker.

08-03-2007, 03:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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i think this hand is just so marginal theres nothing +ev about it at all and you shoudl just fold the flop and try again next time.i would have tried a delay cbet here especially if he kept raising your flop cbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is marginal at all. Whats the point in waiting for a hand when you can play poker?

[/ QUOTE ]
No point in pushing 60/40 edges, mang. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=11509639&page=0&vc=1 )

[/ QUOTE ]
rofl, amazing. you sir, are beyond nitty.

bsheck

08-03-2007, 04:07 AM

I like it (though I agree with betting more on the turn). He'll probably think twice about playing back at you in the future, which is good because he has position on you most hands.

hennnerz

08-03-2007, 08:15 AM

Could bet 2 on the flop, then when he check raises you can 3bet without putting loads in the pot. This is my preferred line. Oh and ofc, as said, bet the turn like a man.

HBomb

08-03-2007, 08:18 AM

It seems as if he has a hand like 77-99 here and you have a good chance of making him fold, however, if he calls turn, I think it's highly -ev to bluff the river in this spot. But as played, according to your description, it seems as if this would be the type of guy to laydown his hand to your turn bet.

08-03-2007, 08:20 AM

relativity_x

08-03-2007, 08:23 AM

GFY

Ace0fSpades

08-03-2007, 12:54 PM

Sup bro, I might be villain here...I was sitting to your left at your $250 stack table last night

wslee00

08-03-2007, 01:04 PM

i like it

Lurker.

08-03-2007, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sup bro, I might be villain here...I was sitting to your left at your $250 stack table last night

[/ QUOTE ]
PM me your sn. it may be you.
edit: go sox

Lurker.

08-03-2007, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Could bet 2 on the flop, then when he check raises you can 3bet without putting loads in the pot. This is my preferred line. Oh and ofc, as said, bet the turn like a man.

[/ QUOTE ]
i already gave my reasoning for floating vs. 3betting the flop. you give no reasoning as to why 3betting is > floating.

Waingro

08-03-2007, 01:38 PM

I like it, nh.

DaycareInferno

08-03-2007, 01:39 PM

i think the float is better than the cbet too. i think you save more the times you are beat than you gain by protecting your imaginary hand.

DaycareInferno

08-04-2007, 06:25 AM

i never really thought about this much before i read this thread. this line seem particularly useful against all the stupid minicheckraises you see at micro. i got to try it once tonight at a table where i had been doing a lot of stealing.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker (http://www.legopoker.com) Hand History Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $7.15
BB: $10.00
UTG: $3.10
CO: $8.90
Hero (BTN): $13.05

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, SB calls $0.35, BB folds
Uncalled bet of $0.00 returned to Hero

Flop: ($0.90) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.65, SB raises to $1.30, Hero calls $0.65

Turn: ($3.50) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.30, SB folds
Uncalled bet of $2.30 returned to Hero

Pot Size: $3.50 ($0.35 Rake)

like you were saying, usually the call is going to give you just as much information, and it did in that hand.

corsakh

08-04-2007, 07:15 AM

Not air, but some small pair. And you really cant do anything about it. Does not matter if he is bluffing and you know that he is, its just a part of the game. Making moves with air on the flop is never good. Calling is the worst you can do.

corsakh

08-04-2007, 07:16 AM

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not air, but some small pair. And you really cant do anything about it. Does not matter if he is bluffing and you know that he is, its just a part of the game. Making moves with air on the flop is never good. Calling is the worst you can do.

[/ QUOTE ]no clue what you're trying to say

Nogatsira

08-04-2007, 11:47 AM

His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand? What are the reads on him pushing back cause you say he's TAG, but that aint no tag stats.
His preflop 20/18 is fine but 2 AF? Seems like a nit to me.

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 12:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand? What are the reads on him pushing back cause you say he's TAG, but that aint no tag stats.
His preflop 20/18 is fine but 2 AF? Seems like a nit to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
well that fact that he's c/r flops before, and that particular flop was not the kind of flop that likely hit my range therefore he can take it down with a raise there a lot of the time....

do you ever c/r flops with air? you know it can be profitable. Do you all just wait till you get big hands?

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 12:05 PM

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His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
this sounds borderline retarded

Nogatsira

08-04-2007, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand? What are the reads on him pushing back cause you say he's TAG, but that aint no tag stats.
His preflop 20/18 is fine but 2 AF? Seems like a nit to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
well that fact that he's c/r flops before, and that particular flop was not the kind of flop that likely hit my range therefore he can take it down with a raise there a lot of the time....

do you ever c/r flops with air? you know it can be profitable. Do you all just wait till you get big hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

A read is different then "I've seen him do it before".
What did he show down when he did it? What will he call you down with? What can he lay down if you keep firing?

Nogatsira

08-04-2007, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
this sounds borderline retarded

[/ QUOTE ]

You ask for thoughts and I give thoughts.
What do I get for it? Some flaming?

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
this sounds borderline retarded

[/ QUOTE ]

You ask for thoughts and I give thoughts.
What do I get for it? Some flaming?

[/ QUOTE ]
my opinion on that particular statement, which made no sense.

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand? What are the reads on him pushing back cause you say he's TAG, but that aint no tag stats.
His preflop 20/18 is fine but 2 AF? Seems like a nit to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
well that fact that he's c/r flops before, and that particular flop was not the kind of flop that likely hit my range therefore he can take it down with a raise there a lot of the time....

do you ever c/r flops with air? you know it can be profitable. Do you all just wait till you get big hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

A read is different then "I've seen him do it before".
What did he show down when he did it? What will he call you down with? What can he lay down if you keep firing?

[/ QUOTE ]
he's a regular, he's aggressive, aggressive players make plays on dry boards like that because it's so unlikely that my range hit it....do you see why?

kaz2107

08-04-2007, 02:17 PM

u know something i just kinda put together like 3 days ago relates PERFECTLY to this. a huge part of his range is draws/air. by calling since we r in position and seeing a turn his equity drops TREMENDOUSLY if the turn blanks. now he is forced to check and fold to a solid bet from u.

that is the difference here between 3 betting the flop and betting the turn on a blank. his equity gets crushed on all blanks. thus our equity in the hand sky rockets.

by 3 betting the flop u can let him either a. call now having a HUGE pot going to the turn with 9 high while he can have the nutz or a draw and we have no idea. but his draw is ahead of us to begin with and now we r forced to fire a huge bullet on the turn which is deff not profitable or b. he can play his draw ubber aggro and shove into us on the flop again forcing us to fold.

monkover

08-04-2007, 03:04 PM

nice post kaz
I agree w/everything...

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
u know something i just kinda put together like 3 days ago relates PERFECTLY to this. a huge part of his range is draws/air. by calling since we r in position and seeing a turn his equity drops TREMENDOUSLY if the turn blanks. now he is forced to check and fold to a solid bet from u.

that is the difference here between 3 betting the flop and betting the turn on a blank. his equity gets crushed on all blanks. thus our equity in the hand sky rockets.

by 3 betting the flop u can let him either a. call now having a HUGE pot going to the turn with 9 high while he can have the nutz or a draw and we have no idea. but his draw is ahead of us to begin with and now we r forced to fire a huge bullet on the turn which is deff not profitable or b. he can play his draw ubber aggro and shove into us on the flop again forcing us to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
that was my thinking in the 3b vs float argument. mind you i didnt express myself as well as you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

itWASaDREAM

08-04-2007, 06:00 PM

I think that calling the flop is fine here. OP understands that his hand has no showdown value.

I think the question really is, can the villian show up with a five here?
I don't think there are any hands that I can se him calling with that have a five. he is likely doing this with 88+ or a ten. possibily something like AQ.

really, I feel that if you have been folding to his c/r before and he knows that you are folding when you have air, the your call is going to slow him down. if he perceives you as a solid player who is not likely to show up here with nine high then this play is great.
I think you have a lot of fe against single paired hands. the turn is a big part of your range and the villian knows that and unles he is showing up with KT here (which I think I not likely) I don't see him continuing.

Speel Posher

08-04-2007, 06:13 PM

i think you hit a good scare card. i like the play. maybe bet more on turn but whatever

itWASaDREAM

08-04-2007, 07:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think you hit a good scare card. i like the play. maybe bet more on turn but whatever

[/ QUOTE ]
am i the only one that does not like reading responses like this?

Check_The_Nuts

08-04-2007, 07:57 PM

yes you are. The k is a great scare card.

I still don't like the bluff. First off you have a [censored] hand and can't resuckout. Due to your hand I'd rather 3bet than wait for a turn (if he's doing this with AQ/KQ or whatever u might get snipped). Overall I think folding>raising=calling.

This is a lot better when you have some overcards. And even better if there is a flush draw on board+board is paired. Thats why I think the second one is A+++ but I'd give this one a B.

Nogatsira

08-04-2007, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand? What are the reads on him pushing back cause you say he's TAG, but that aint no tag stats.
His preflop 20/18 is fine but 2 AF? Seems like a nit to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
well that fact that he's c/r flops before, and that particular flop was not the kind of flop that likely hit my range therefore he can take it down with a raise there a lot of the time....

do you ever c/r flops with air? you know it can be profitable. Do you all just wait till you get big hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

A read is different then "I've seen him do it before".
What did he show down when he did it? What will he call you down with? What can he lay down if you keep firing?

[/ QUOTE ]
he's a regular, he's aggressive, aggressive players make plays on dry boards like that because it's so unlikely that my range hit it....do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

His AF is 2, I still don't see he's agressive.

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His range might be air indeed, but why don't you wait till you have a hand? What are the reads on him pushing back cause you say he's TAG, but that aint no tag stats.
His preflop 20/18 is fine but 2 AF? Seems like a nit to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
well that fact that he's c/r flops before, and that particular flop was not the kind of flop that likely hit my range therefore he can take it down with a raise there a lot of the time....

do you ever c/r flops with air? you know it can be profitable. Do you all just wait till you get big hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

A read is different then "I've seen him do it before".
What did he show down when he did it? What will he call you down with? What can he lay down if you keep firing?

[/ QUOTE ]
he's a regular, he's aggressive, aggressive players make plays on dry boards like that because it's so unlikely that my range hit it....do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

His AF is 2, I still don't see he's agressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

AF is the most unpredictable stat over small sample sizes.

Nogatsira

08-04-2007, 09:43 PM

couldnt know the sample size was small, I figured you had alot of hands on him since you said he's a regular

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 09:50 PM

true enough.

john voight

08-04-2007, 10:14 PM

what is the turn bet supposed look like? 5x? KT?
I mean I dont think you would be airing it with Kx here.

But while line looks decent, I think flop raise would look stronger b/c you would prolly play TPTK and set that way (at least thats how I would play it) if you play tricker than me post flop then your line is better than the line I would take if I was making a play.

Lurker.

08-04-2007, 10:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what is the turn bet supposed look like? 5x? KT?
I mean I dont think you would be airing it with Kx here.

But while line looks decent, I think flop raise would look stronger b/c you would prolly play TPTK and set that way (at least thats how I would play it) if you play tricker than me post flop then your line is better than the line I would take if I was making a play.

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree you that the flop raise looks stronger. but if he calls with the latter part of his range, then we're caught in a bloated pot with nine high...this is why i chose to float and why i believe floating>3b etting