NL25 Hero lets AA go on turn; scary board

[automaton_22]

Guessing letting the hand go on the turn is standard.
What about calling the raise to 6 on the flop? Spew?
Didn't have a lot of respect for villain, he was handy with his chips.

Your comment?

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($4.6, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $3</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $6</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($16.6, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $5</font>, Hero ?

EDIT
Seat 2: Villain ( $28.39 USD )
Seat 3: Hero ( $27.78 USD )

Villain is VPIP% 50 [What I meant by handy with his chips.

Villain showed <font color="white"> KJ </font> [in white], which is why I was confused enough to post for advice.

[Waingro]

Stacks? Also, I don´t really get your read. Does it mean he likes to bet a lot without a hand?

[Poker_0reo]

shove it

[automaton_22]

Please see edit above.

[automaton_22]

[ QUOTE ]
Stacks? Also, I don´t really get your read. Does it mean he likes to bet a lot without a hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Also Jim, please explain the relevance of stack size in this situation to the newbie [me].

Poker_Oreo: Why shove?

[creamfillin]

I wouldn't mind a check behind on the flop. The board is drawless/ we're in position. I think smaller pps are more likely to bet/call a turn bet than a flop bet. I think this also lets us off cheaper when villain has a queen.

[creamfillin]

nvm. You're too deep to shove here.

[automaton_22]

[ QUOTE ]
nvm. You're too deep to shove here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi could one of the old hands explain in a pithy way the effect of the depth of stacks on this situation? Am guessing too much to lose on a marginal situation?

[Skleice]

[ QUOTE ]

please explain the relevance of stack size in this situation to the newbie [me].


[/ QUOTE ]

At this point you would like to see a showdown for as little as possible. Your hand has no real chance to improve and you're not comfortable. If one of you is short, you can consider pushing to just get to showdown. If the stacks are larger, you are not only considering the $5 turn bet, but how much more you are going to be asked to call on the river. You probably asked yourself that same question when you got minraised on the flop.

[creamfillin]

When I first read the hand I thought this was 50NL and villain was a half-stack. Against this type of villain I would call his smallish turn bet as he probably shows up with alot of garbage here a decent % of the time. Let him bet his smaller pairs for you. Call river if he bets small again.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nvm. You're too deep to shove here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi could one of the old hands explain in a pithy way the effect of the depth of stacks on this situation? Am guessing too much to lose on a marginal situation?

[/ QUOTE ]
The most straight forward way to use stacks for me is to see if villain is short stacked. The shorter the villain the less I worry about their possible holdings and look at my own hand. And AA is a pretty good hand.

If villain 100 bb or more it is more about manipulating the size of the pot so that you know if you are commited or not when you take certain actions and how much money you are risking. Since you both have 100 bb it is fine to shove the turn. Villain will probably call with many different holdings you beat.

[WarhammerIIC]

If I call the flop min-raise, there's no way in hell I'm folding for $5 in a ~$22 pot. I'm calling that bet and hoping he makes another small one on the river so I can see the showdown pretty cheaply. I don't think they are going to min-raise this flop with a Q as often as you think. I would be more worried about a call.

[automaton_22]

[ QUOTE ]
If I call the flop min-raise, there's no way in hell I'm folding for $5 in a ~$22 pot. I'm calling that bet and hoping he makes another small one on the river so I can see the showdown pretty cheaply. I don't think they are going to min-raise this flop with a Q as often as you think. I would be more worried about a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this advice rings true.
I folded, and regretted it, given pot odds.
If he fires a big bet on the river, I have to fold, but would call another small bet.

[kurto]

a guy who plays that many hands and who is aggressive is going to bet big a lot if they sense weakness. You can't fold AA to a player like that. If he has a queen that's your tough luck. He'll bet 3 swtreets with nothing if you don't show strength. They will relentlessly bet every scare card.

[MusashiStyle]

don't call flop. that's just terrible. and if you do call flop. you sure as hell don't fold turn.

3-bet flop or check behind initially. or fold to his flop checkraise. I like all those better.

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
don't call flop. that's just terrible. and if you do call flop. you sure as hell don't fold turn.

3-bet flop or check behind initially. or fold to his flop checkraise. I like all those better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why calls a 3 bet that you are beating?

Op, bad fold on the turn, your getting great odds and against an aggressive guy like that it's such an easy call

[automaton_22]

Had no idea this post would prove so controversial.

My conclusion:
Either raise or fold the flop, and, as played, call the turn, and hope for another small bet on the river to call.

[BombayBadboy]

[ QUOTE ]
don't call flop. that's just terrible. and if you do call flop. you sure as hell don't fold turn.

3-bet flop or check behind initially. or fold to his flop checkraise. I like all those better.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[automaton_22]

[/ QUOTE ]No.

[/ QUOTE ]

No what?

[BombayBadboy]

Vs. this type of player I'm never folding this flop. I probably call all the way down. Reraising the flop is bad. Either you are way ahead, or way behind.

[automaton_22]

[ QUOTE ]
Vs. this type of player I'm never folding this flop. I probably call all the way down. Reraising the flop is bad. Either you are way ahead, or way behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I admired "no" for its brevity, but felt it was a little lacking in the meaning department.

[Event Duality]

[ QUOTE ]
Vs. this type of player I'm never folding this flop. I probably call all the way down. Reraising the flop is bad. Either you are way ahead, or way behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

And by calling down, you are going to get your whole stack in anyway. Against a player with 50%VPIP, I 3bet shove this flop all day. If he has a Q, oh well; most of the time he won't. I am definitely good a high percentage of the time, and calling down in no limit makes me feel dirty.

[ICMoney]

A CB is standard here. He is not folding any pp.
Call min raise.

Turn is a call. It's a small bet. He could have JJ or AK or something.

Call if around 1/3 psb on river. Fold to push.

[ama0330]

Wow man you have to at least call on this turn, I dont know about shoving but I can't really fold

[leo.]

raise abit more pre. Call flop c/r. call turn, re-evaluate river.

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vs. this type of player I'm never folding this flop. I probably call all the way down. Reraising the flop is bad. Either you are way ahead, or way behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

And by calling down, you are going to get your whole stack in anyway. Against a player with 50%VPIP, I 3bet shove this flop all day. If he has a Q, oh well; most of the time he won't. I am definitely good a high percentage of the time, and calling down in no limit makes me feel dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have asked this once and I will ask it again, what calls us that we beat to 3 bet on flop because I don't see a hand which calls us and because of this 3 betting is very bad and calling is much better no matter how dirty it makes you feel.

[BombayBadboy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vs. this type of player I'm never folding this flop. I probably call all the way down. Reraising the flop is bad. Either you are way ahead, or way behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

And by calling down, you are going to get your whole stack in anyway. Against a player with 50%VPIP, I 3bet shove this flop all day. If he has a Q, oh well; most of the time he won't. I am definitely good a high percentage of the time, and calling down in no limit makes me feel dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

By raising you force his bluffs out, and we don't want that for obvious reasons. Get used to feeling dirty.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I have asked this once and I will ask it again, what calls us that we beat to 3 bet on flop because I don't see a hand which calls us and because of this 3 betting is very bad and calling is much better no matter how dirty it makes you feel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with this... that is, if you know all the money is going to go in, you don't have to push him out. Just so long as you know its all going in and you're not folding.

[wslee00]

i agree - you can't push in this situation unless you're going to do this w/ air a portion of the time.

[powderman]

Raise more pre-flop, and call down.

[ryang]

just by looking at his vpip you need to call this down.

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
don't call flop. that's just terrible. and if you do call flop. you sure as hell don't fold turn.

3-bet flop or check behind initially. or fold to his flop checkraise. I like all those better.

[/ QUOTE ]

lost on this reasoning 100%.

At 25NL I never folded aces ever. I mean literally I may have folded them once in 50k hands or however ridiculous number of hands I played there (its embarassing).

The reason I never folded them is because the fish at that level constantly bluff/put their stack in extremely light. To the point where if you hold an overpair you really shouldn't worry toooo much about the board if you hold AA. In this spot I would stack off/call turn/raise turn whatever 100% of the time.

At 50 it gets a bit different and I do fold overpairs sometimes. At 100 IMO you have to start thinking about pot control for your overpairs. The reason that one of my biggest leaks is folding overpairs right now is probably b.c. of all the stupid bluffs I saw ppl making versus my AA when I was at 25NL.

I mean don't be ridiculous with this reasoning or anything. But on relatively dry boards any fish is going to have a very difficult time forcing me to fold QQ+

[Fiksdal]

Villain can make the turn minraise with a queen, but also with a smaller pair. Your call is fine.

The king should be a scarecard for his smaller pairs, but his bet might be a scared blocker. call/evaluate.

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have asked this once and I will ask it again, what calls us that we beat to 3 bet on flop because I don't see a hand which calls us and because of this 3 betting is very bad and calling is much better no matter how dirty it makes you feel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, definately calling this guy down. The turn fold was horrible

I don't have a problem with this... that is, if you know all the money is going to go in, you don't have to push him out. Just so long as you know its all going in and you're not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]