Weird Spot w/ QQ

[Ace0fSpades]

I don't have much of a read on villain because I had only been at the table for a few minutes. I had a pretty TAG image and had not been out of line at all. I really can't see his preflop line being anything but AA or KK, but I am getting such good odds to see a flop. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/convert.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

UTG ($52.70)
MP <font color="#A500AF">(Villain)</font> ($28.70)
CO ($64.35)
Button ($70.40)
SB ($53.65)
Hero ($59.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP <font color="#A500AF">(Villain)</font> raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls $1.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP <font color="#A500AF">(Villain)</font> raises to $13</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $4.75.

Flop: ($26) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Villain bets $17.45 (All-In)</font>, Hero?

Final Pot: $43.45

[prodonkey]

You don't make any sense in your statement. You say he has AA or KK.. yet you are getting good odds? No you aren't. The guy only has $17.45 behind and you're calling 6.5. You're only going to win 3x's that bet, the 1 time in 8 you flop a set. This is terrible to call this for set value. I'm shoving QQ preflop when someone only has 1/2 a stack usually.

[blackice781]

you're crushed. you're not getting the 2.5:1 you need to be calling this if he has AA or KK.

[Man Our Units]

Fold.

[Ace0fSpades]

Clearly I don't like the approach I took because of the spot it put me in, but can I honestly shove over his reraise preflop? At the same time, folding preflop seems really nitty for just over 50BBs. This hand plays very awkwardly because of villain's stack size (I had never seen the 30BB-80BB stack theory as clearly as I did this hand).

[blackice781]

" I really can't see his preflop line being anything but AA or KK"

fold&gt;shoving&gt;calling with his stack and your read.

[Man Our Units]

Villian will not show up with air here ever I think, With that said I think its reasonable to put villians range at AQ+ KK+ in which case we have 46% equity. If villians range is AK+ KK+ we then have 40% equity. I think this is a fold.

[prodonkey]

You're getting 2.5:1 and you want to fold with 40% equity? very bad

[Man Our Units]

We are getting 2.5:1 to call his 4bet minraise. That is not enough for set odds obv, and if flop misses us (all undercards) we still only have 46% equity. And he still only has 15$ left which is not enough to shove and justify it.

[prodonkey]

what? you are making no sense at all. If you put him on AK, KK+, you have a trivial easy call on the flop

[Man Our Units]

[ QUOTE ]
what? you are making no sense at all. If you put him on AK, KK+, you have a trivial easy call on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense, unless we hit a queen on the flop we are still behind his range. Always. Whether it is 9 high or A high. Unless you like calling behind then your post makes no sense.

[danny8]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what? you are making no sense at all. If you put him on AK, KK+, you have a trivial easy call on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense, unless we hit a queen on the flop we are still behind his range. Always. Whether it is 9 high or A high. Unless you like calling behind then your post makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he hhas AK+ KK+ then you're ~50/50 vs that range on a flop of all unders, with the money already in the pot from calling the 4bet, folding would be a horrific mistake!

i'd just shove pf since he has a 1/2 stack

[blackice781]

IMO this is a preflop decision. we should either shove or fold.

If the villain's range is AK, KK+, we get 40% equity.

If we shove, we are getting 2.68:1 (the shove is 37.3% of the pot)

Therefore, we should shove if we put villain's range is AK+, KK+.

However, OP puts villain on KK+. This is still a fold.

[Ace0fSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO this is a preflop decision. we should either shove or fold.

If the villain's range is AK, KK+, we get 40% equity.

If we shove, we are getting 2.68:1 (the shove is 37.3% of the pot)

Therefore, we should shove if we put villain's range is AK+, KK+.

However, OP puts villain on KK+. This is still a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been by far the best post thus far. This is clearly a preflop issue and is mostly a matter of numbers. The biggest problem with this hand is determining whether or not AK is included in villain's range; I don't believe it is simply because this is a value (minraise) 4bet as opposed to a larger 4bet.

[SoMarginal]

Simple..Shove, hope his range is like AJs+ which I've seen alot during prime time on FTP and then go with it, sure he might have KK or AA some of the time, but AK plays it the same way and Villian could be a maniac short stack which FTP has no shortage of.

[Ace0fSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
Simple..Shove, hope his range is like AJs+ which I've seen alot during prime time on FTP and then go with it, sure he might have KK or AA some of the time, but AK plays it the same way and Villian could be a maniac short stack which FTP has no shortage of.

[/ QUOTE ]

This completely negates my read...so I don't think this is quite as simple as you're making it out to be.

[Jw513]

I think you can safely eliminate AK. He 4bet minraised, and I don't think even the fish will do that. If he 4 bet all in, then it may be better to make a call.

But I will fold at this spot. I think its AA/KK all the time. Even JJ wins. The only hand you beat is 1010 (which is highly doubtful)