Q8s in SB.

[Man Our Units]

OK, so obvisouly I messed up bad on turn by not c/ring more than to 6$. I now think I should have donked the turn for like ~10$. I think that donking and c/r are virtually the same thing in this example and that either way my hand is very transparent. However I might be able to get paid off by a lower flush/two pair my tag along on turn. Im trying to gain thoughts on how to play the turn. I think as played my river is a fold as I only beat a bluff, IE a smaller flush wont be min raising me here.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

Hero (SB): $57.40
BB: $28.45
UTG: $49.25
MP: $49.45
CO: $46.75
BTN: $49.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $1.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $1.00, Hero calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($4) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 Players)
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="red">MP bets $1.50</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $3.00</font>, Hero calls $3.00, BB folds, MP calls $1.50

Turn: ($13) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $0.50</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.00</font>, MP folds, BTN calls $5.50

River: ($25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $10.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $20.00</font>, Hero folds

Pot Size: $55.00 ($2.15 Rake)

[agoldenbear]

Personally, I fold pf, but I'm really tight from the blinds, esp the SB.

on the flop i think that folding is overwhelmingly the best choice. MP could still RR the BTN's raise, and you'll be caught in the middle with just a draw. But since he didn't RR, you got great odds to draw at the second nuts.

you're right that there's almost no way to play your hand on the turn without giving it away entirely. But when you give your hand away like this, you have to bet big. You can expect observant opponents to put you on exactly the hand you have, which means their decisions will be near perfect. As played, you gave the BTN 19.5-to-5.5 odds, around 3.5-to-1, which is close to what he needs to draw at quads or a boat.

But when you review the betting, is it fair to put BTN on a flopped set?

His pf action is consistent with 22 and 77, but his play on the flop is kind of strange with a set on a two-flushed board. On the flop I want to say he has JTc or J9c, because of the minraise. He's not worried about protecting his hand because he flopped huge --- top pair and a flush draw.

But then his play on the turn confuses me again. The min bet into a $13 pot may be a sign that he completed his flush OR that he's worried someone else did and that his set has been outdrawn.

However, the min raise on the river should suggest he filled up. Tough spot man, but getting 5.5-to-1 on the river call, you just have to sack up and make him show you better. If he's betting a worse flush or trip jacks even 15% of the time, your call is break even.

[Antinome]

[ QUOTE ]
getting 5.5-to-1 on the river call, you just have to sack up and make him show you better. If he's betting a worse flush or trip jacks even 15% of the time, your call is break even.

[/ QUOTE ]

[1tripz1]

I just think this is a very nitty fold. You chose to play the Q8s, you made your flush, if he rivered a FH then take your medicine, your getting 5.5-1!

[Man Our Units]

I think this is a worse hand less than 15% of the time so I fold. LDO. What kind of hand does he take this line with that is not beating me. A lower flush? Unlikely, he would not min bet the btn on turned flush then call a 1/2p reraise then min raise the river. Thats ridiculous to think IMO, he might do this with a bare J but thats stretching it as I obv there is a flush draw out there and he would have had to misclick min raise or be downs. Seeing as people misclick less then 2% of the time and downs only affects 12% of people then I have a 14% chance of having the best hand so I fold. Sarcasm ppl.

[mitsu1775]

i'm folding preflop here as well, you have a very marginal hand at best, OOP in a multiway pot. As played, i can see a fold on the flop here as well. are you calling a 3rd raise if MP repops here? not likely (i hope not). turn, yes you are giving your hand away. i'm never folding this river here with the odds the pot is laying me.

[blackice781]

ok as played except i lead turn.

[wslee00]

please fold pf.

[Nytecaster]

Fold preflop. I'd only call if I were actually in the BB and if SB folds giving me opportunity to act first. Again I would only be in it if I could outplay the opponents who could potentially be in the hand postflop.

The position of acting first would give me an opportunity to make a play at the pot if it's a flop I somewhat like and feel I could semi-bluff with.

However I am atually in the SB with a raise already in front and the BB left to act behind. I'm folding this because I don't like the possibility of being trapped unless the BB is weak and folds a lot to raises. Then I would treat the SB as if I were in the BB. The downsides to playing are the price is not as good and the BB could wakeup with a hand and raise.

[Kasane]

Fold pf.

I think I'd fold the flop, too. You're oop, he's bet enough that you probably won't get that much value out of him if flush hits (you're so obviously on the flush draw, can't be anything else.) Acxc is out there still potentially out there(forget that it fell on the turn). And MP can reopen the betting big, really pricing you out (or in at barely ev0 or less if one of them holds a higher draw).

river bet is so small I'm going to have to call as it could have induced any other flush to raise.

[Man Our Units]

Why are you guys so keen on folding preflop we have a min raise from MP and a call from BTN, its .75 more to call and we have a fine hand to see a cheap flop with. There is absolutely positvely no reason to fold this unless we are aiming to play a 10/8 game. Folding the flop is equally as silly, we are drawing to the third nuts with backdoor draws. If MP comes back over the top for a substantially large amount of money then I can fold but I am not to worried about calling 3$ then folding to a re raise.

[prodonkey]

I don't even know where to begin. So are you calling any suited for a raise from the sb? I really doubt calling Q8 here can be profitable because of your position. I think betting 10 and folding for 10 more on that river is beyond awful. Button could easily have a worse flush.. or JQ etc, if he is a donk.

[blackice781]

i can see both arguments for calling and folding preflop.

my decision in this situation entirely depends on table dynamics and the opponent(s).

[blackice781]

[ QUOTE ]
i can see both arguments for calling and folding preflop.

my decision in this situation entirely depends on table dynamics and the opponent(s).

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. you have to call a minraise if you're going to bet river. if anything, it's bad for your image to fold.

[Man Our Units]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even know where to begin. So are you calling any suited for a raise from the sb? I really doubt calling Q8 here can be profitable because of your position. I think betting 10 and folding for 10 more on that river is beyond awful. Button could easily have a worse flush.. or JQ etc, if he is a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is bad advice IMO, c/c this river is okay but betting out here is a better play IMO. By villians action on turn its pretty easy to deduce he has a somewhat strong hand and is obvisouly concerned about a flush. I gave him odds to call and spike a FH which he almost certainly did. Folding to this min raise on the river is not awful, calling it is. Also, calling with Q8s is different than calling with Q4s as Q8s is loosely connected. Cheers.

[prodonkey]

calling getting 5:1 when he could easily have something like 56c, maybe he has a J, and thinks he's ahead of your A now. If he shoves I think you might make a case for a fold.. but folding for $10 more is very bad

[Man Our Units]

[ QUOTE ]
calling getting 5:1 when he could easily have something like 56c, maybe he has a J, and thinks he's ahead of your A now. If he shoves I think you might make a case for a fold.. but folding for $10 more is very bad

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess we have different opinions of what is bad and what is good then. I would have to be right ~15% of the time which I dont think I would be. So I folded.

[danny8]

i'd fold pf, i doubt its profitable to call here, its only .75... but yur hands [censored] and you're oop

i'd prolly lead turn, but i dont mind a c/r, just make it bigger

BTN is clearly crap.. he minraises on a v.drawy flop, then minbets turn in a $13 pot. when he raises the river you're likely beat but getting such good odds against an idiot i think foldings a mistake. this guy can so easily have a lower flush or more probably a J

[blackize]

River is a super easy call unless you have a very good read. There is no reason to think he can't have a hand like KcJx or a lower flush some of the time.

Preflop is meh. You're going to be drawing OOP most of the time and will have a hard time getting much value from your hand as you saw this time around.

[Rounder101]

PF call is not that bad.
I definetely bet the turn, and I agree button is CRAP.
You have to call the river, by the way hes played it shows hes got not much of a clue of what hes doing, so very likely he is raising a jack here, lower flush (less likely).
5.5-1 odds are way to good.

[agoldenbear]

Man Our Units-
This post is going to jump all over the place because that's how I feel you played the hand. So just bear with me.

The prevailing sentiment seems to be that Q8c is not going to be profitable from the SB unless you are an exceptional post-flop player. You said something to the effect that,

"There is absolutely positively no reason to fold this unless we are aiming to play a 10/8 game."

If you truly feel this way, you are bleeding money from the worst position at the table. You are not categorically a nit just because you fold Q8c to a raise from the SB. If you want to improve your winrate, get used to folding KTs A9s Q9s, even things like AJo and KQo when you are in the SB facing a raise. You are not good enough to play these trap hands proftitably from OOP. Not too many of us are.

Regarding the river call, it just baffles me that you will so staunchly defend your pf call and yet be so pessimistic about your winning chances on the river. 22, 77 and AJ do not make up 85% of his river min-raise range. Folding for another $10 when the pot is $55 is a substantial mistake.

In one post you say that someone's advice is bad in your opinion, that "c/c this river is okay but betting out here is a better play IMO." HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? The board pairs, so you have to be worried that he filled up, and obviously you are. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU BET OUT? You have a ton of showdown value, but his calling range here is slim. Betting here folds out worse hands and encourages better hands to do the correct thing and raise. Meanwhile, checking may get him to bet small with the best hand or mistakenly value bet with a worse hand. YOU CAN'T ARGUE FOR BETTING OUT AND THEN FOLDING TO A MIN RAISE. IT'S TOTALLY IRRATIONAL.

We've all pegged BTN as a donk based on the wild line he took in this hand. Donks overplay QJ, KJ and baby flushes in this spot more than 15% of the time. You were putting money in this pot at all the wrong times and in all the wrong amounts, and then when it finally came time to do so correctly, you bailed out. Not good.

[blackize]

River is a mandatory bet unless we have a read that he is a habitual bluffer. Plenty of worse hands will call including Jx Ax and lower flushes.

[1tripz1]

and this is micro. you guys talk like each player at these limits has a brief clue whats going on.

[ThaHero]

By folding this river we're saying that a sole jack NEVER raises here basically. We have to call. This thread is absurd.

[Man Our Units]

YOU GUYS ARE [censored] IDIOTS

[Man Our Units]

JK I &lt;3 all of u. Even though we disagree.

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling getting 5:1 when he could easily have something like 56c, maybe he has a J, and thinks he's ahead of your A now. If he shoves I think you might make a case for a fold.. but folding for $10 more is very bad

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess we have different opinions of what is bad and what is good then. I would have to be right ~15% of the time which I dont think I would be. So I folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think u have the best hand 15% of the time? LOL the guy is an obvious donk from his min bet on the turn.

[castigar]

fold pf

[dividius]

I don't see how you can fold on the river.

[traz]

fold pf, fold flop, call river

[agoldenbear]

Blackize - you really think hero can value bet the river? On this board, especially after hero more or less shouted that he turned a flush, I think that turns our hand into a bluff. Although villain is a donk, I can't see him flat calling in this spot too often, and if hero bets and villain shoves, we've forfeited all our showdown value because now we have a bluff catcher and marginal pot odds.

[blackize]

Most players don't bluffraise the river and they'll call too light so betting has a lot of value to it. He's definitely calling with any J, a smaller flush, and some Ax hands. He might raise with a J or a smaller flush as well as boats and the K high flush. Given the pot odds presented to the hero I think he has to call because villains at these stakes turn up with a naked J or lower flush way too often. If he shoves I think you have a pretty easy fold because your pot odds are terrible and you won't be ahead often enough except against the craziest of opponents.

[traz]

The river is an absolute must bet. KJ and QJ call all day, not to mention underflushes

[fees]

my heart actually felt a sharp pain when i saw hero folds.. call ffs