turn aggression

[ssdex]

is there a post anywhere that deals with proper turn aggression--- when to double barrell ect

also, what do your turn aggression numbers look like

for some period of time I have thought this was one of my biggest leaks, and in general it seems to be a big leak for most people---- i have so many sessions where my river af>turn af---- yet im still crushing

just wanted general thought/ general discussion on turn aggression for micros.

[relativity_x]

My turn AF is 3.5

Generally, you want to double barrel when someone floats you on a fairly dry board and a scare card hits.

Example:
Effective stacks of 50

Hero(BTN) is dealt 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Pre-flop:(0.75)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero bets 2</font>, SB calls 1.75, BB folds

Flop:(4.50) 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 3</font>, SB calls 3

Turn:(10.50) K /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 8</font>, SB folds

[ssdex]

relativity 3.5 seems high, but maybe im not that aggressive, what kind of game do you play and what do your other stats look like?

[relativity_x]

I run around 24/18/3

AF by street:
Flop:5
Turn:3.5
River:2

[ssdex]

im 23/17/2

af by street
flop: 3.1
turn: 2.2
river.1.9

[TheBobn]

On a side note, betting $8 on that turn seems like a lot on such a dry board, $5-$6 will usually get the job done if the villain doesn't like to call down if he thinks you like to rep scare cards.

[ssdex]

others join in on this discussion, I think turn aggression is a really important number

[relativity_x]

Here's another thing to mention.

On my HUD display, I have folds to cbet.

If they're around 50%, I'm going to need a better hand to cbet, but I will definitely double barrel a wider range of turns.

I think it depends a lot on the villain. If villain is passive/station and calls flop, I'm not betting unimproved on any street unless there's a big draw out.

If villain is an aggro guy like myself, they'll usually float me and lead turn (I do this to a lot myself to guys who cbet 80+%---works like a charm). In this case, I typically raise them. This play typically requires me to have around 500+ hands on villain (a very strong read/history).

[ssdex]

i should probably add that to my hud, seems like a good stat

[Man Our Units]

On my HUD I have five seperate lines:
1. vpip/pfr/att to steal
2. call cbet/fold cbet/raise cbet
3. cbet/fold to flop raise/check, raise flop/flop af
4. cbet turn/bet turn/fold to turn bet/fold to turn raise/ turn af
5. bet river/fold to river bet/ river af

My AF's are to the right off the rest of the stats and underneath of those AF's I have their overall AF and to the left of that I have the total # of hands I have. I dont really pay attention to these stats when I cbet unless I have history with villian, but they do come in handy every now and then.

Also, when I am thinking whether or not to Cbet/Dbl Barrel, I take the following into considerations, am I betting my hand for value or am I betting it to take it down now? Either answer is fine to cbet but if its for value im always 2barreling, if it is to try and take it down now then I will only 2barrel in some of these scenarios, I have a wicked drawing hand that I think I have 10+ good outs, a higher card then the board came IE a QKorA and I will now 2barrel and hope they think I hit/had it all along, or I will 2barrel if I think my opponent is floating me lightly.

3barrels are very tough to decide on but usually I only like to do it if I whiffed a FD and I think my hand doesnt have showdown value, or if I think they whiffed a draw.

[ssdex]

[ QUOTE ]
On my HUD I have five seperate lines:
1. vpip/pfr/att to steal
2. call cbet/fold cbet/raise cbet
3. cbet/fold to flop raise/check, raise flop/flop af
4. cbet turn/bet turn/fold to turn bet/fold to turn raise/ turn af
5. bet river/fold to river bet/ river af

My AF's are to the right off the rest of the stats and underneath of those AF's I have their overall AF and to the left of that I have the total # of hands I have. I dont really pay attention to these stats when I cbet unless I have history with villian, but they do come in handy every now and then.

Also, when I am thinking whether or not to Cbet/Dbl Barrel, I take the following into considerations, am I betting my hand for value or am I betting it to take it down now? Either answer is fine to cbet but if its for value im always 2barreling, if it is to try and take it down now then I will only 2barrel in some of these scenarios, I have a wicked drawing hand that I think I have 10+ good outs, a higher card then the board came IE a QKorA and I will now 2barrel and hope they think I hit/had it all along, or I will 2barrel if I think my opponent is floating me lightly.

3barrels are very tough to decide on but usually I only like to do it if I whiffed a FD and I think my hand doesnt have showdown value, or if I think they whiffed a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you play with all those numbers? lol------ impressive though--- some good stuff here keep it going

[Man Our Units]

http://www.geocities.com/skater32926/layout.jpg

I 6tbl and custom tile the tables to my screen. Dell E1405 which is a 14" monitor, sometimes its hard to see your cards but not to difficult overall.

[Speedlimits]

I've been working on this recently too. Turn aggression is really important since the majority of people know the standard pf/flop plays. My turn AF is 3.4

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.geocities.com/skater32926/layout.jpg

I 6tbl and custom tile the tables to my screen. Dell E1405 which is a 14" monitor, sometimes its hard to see your cards but not to difficult overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like HUD and all but I think a lot of these numbers are unnecessary. I think focusing more on fundamentals and less on tricking out your PAHUD is more beneficial.

[Man Our Units]

Just because they are there doesnt mean you have to use them but every single one of those numbers has lent me use so far.

[ssdex]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been working on this recently too. Turn aggression is really important since the majority of people know the standard pf/flop plays. My turn AF is 3.4

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.. I am on the sickest heater of my life and I think one of the primary reasons is that my turn aggression has been way higher then normal for me--- it amazes me how many people will give up on the turn when you double barrel.

[grizadams]

[quote

If villain is an aggro guy like myself, they'll usually float me and lead turn (I do this to a lot myself to guys who cbet 80+%---works like a charm). In this case, I typically raise them. This play typically requires me to have around 500+ hands on villain (a very strong read/history).

[/ QUOTE ]

does it matter what position your in?

[ssdex]

hes probably talking about being in the blinds if he's first to act

[HBomb]

I feel like I'm playing some of the best poker of my life right now and my flop AF is about 7 the last few days and my turn is about 4.5-5.1 in the last few 1,000 hands I've played. I'm making alot more plays on the flop to help me define they're hands alot better, especially when I'm out of position. The few times I get called on the flop I can now slow down and try to see a cheap showdown, not to mention the fact when I'm raising with a draw, I'll get paid off the few times that I end up hitting it and they're more committed to the pot than usual.

[ssdex]

im still pretty passive, but i definately am becoming a fan of building the pot on the flop and turn so when you hit you get paid off real nice.

People really really should stop mini raising me

[relativity_x]

I think there is a strong relationship between turn/river AF and w$ wsf (won money while seeing flop).

I stated that my AF by street is around 5/3.5/2 on flop/turn/river. With these stats, my won$wsf is 49%.

Another thing that leads me to believe this is my earlier stats, I ran much more passive around a 2 overall AF. With an AF of 2, my w$wsf was around 40-42ish.


Final thought, I'm much less aggressive on river because I want to get paid off or dump the hand. I'll bluff known villains with low wtsd on a good card; however, if stationy villains call flop/turn bets, then you're more than likely not folding anything out on the river.

I`m the same my river AF is bigger then my turn AF. To be honest my stats are not very aggro anyways 19/13/2, is kind of weak tightiesh.

I also want to work on that, however I think that once I get better at hand reading I will come by itself and I will be able to make better decisions on 4th street. I think 4th street is the hardest street to play, compared to flop and river.

[relativity_x]

I was orginally talking about when a villain check/calls flop and leads turn (I'm in position in this situation). When the right villains do this, I like to raise their turn lead, but I must feel confident that the villain is double barrelling me.

I was also saying that I'll check/call a villain, who has position on me, that cbets a high % of flops and lead the turn to take the pot away.

Obviously, these plays are high variance and shouldn't be tried by the faint of heart.

[ama0330]

smashing the turn is usually high variance low profit if its done against the wrong opponents at the wrong times. My turn AF is usually about 2 or 3 but I dont see any point trying to get it any higher

[ssdex]

[ QUOTE ]
smashing the turn is usually high variance low profit if its done against the wrong opponents at the wrong times. My turn AF is usually about 2 or 3 but I dont see any point trying to get it any higher

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, but i dont think you can play too passively on the turn, has been my problem for a long time--- somewhere around 2.3-2.8 may be optimal im not sure, still tweaking with it.

[ama0330]

I definitely dbl barrel more than I used to, but I pick my spots and generally dont do it in really big pots just because by the time there is that much money in there, idk but people just dont want to fold imo. I would never do it multiway obv.

[Lego05]

Turn aggression is something I've always been thinking about kinda and wondering how to improve.

Well since July 1st I've played 50,245 hands at 50NL with a winrate of 6.4PTBB/100 hands.

I've been playing at 19/16/3.5.

Aggression by street starting with flop: 5.01/1.91/2.22

My river aggression has always been higher than my turn aggression. I'm not really sure why it works out that way and that's why I've always been thinking about if I should be playign the tuen differently.