Because its a TAG, I don't fold ($50 Full Tilt)

[kurto]

From memory--

Villain and I both have full stacks. Villain has TAG stats. As such I've been stealing his blinds.

Its folded to me in the SB with A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I raise to $2. Villain calls.

FLOP ($4) - A /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet $3. Villain raises to $7. I call.

TURN ($18) - 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check. Villain bets $9. I call.

RIVER ($36) - 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check. Villain bets $25. I call.

The reason I played this hand as I did is entirely because he was a TAG (something like 18/12/2) and because of how I read his actions and his bet sizing. I have my own ideas why this was right to me but not sure how others will feel.

I debate whether or not I should have either raised the turn or led out but am not sure that's better either. (to be honest, I never really considered folding... but I'm curious to hear if others think otherwise)

(I actually this hand is interesting only because I fold this hand to a non-TAG... I felt like calling and only calling seemed right because the player was TAG)

Anyone?

[hunt1897]

Good Tags don't play like this with air. You have put yourself in a tough situation. When you called turn bet, what did you think you were beating based on Villian's stats?

[reef2287]

i raise turn, i think you'll get him to check most rivers there if hes a tag because your raise on the turn shows great strength, you could then put out a blocking bet and see how he reacts, the way it went he could have fired a pot bet which would have been a much more expensive call... based on your reads, i don't find it spewy, because u seem confident, but i want to minimize the monies i can lose if he actually ends up having a hand ( i hope this is also one of the few tags who can triple barrel as well)

[corsakh]

He probably showed you A4 or A8.

[reef2287]

edit- check most rivers without the nuts, i think he might even be checking aj there with strength shown on the turn-- i disagree with hunt because you haven't shown real strength, a tag could take this and run with it, thinking you have middle pair and don't have the ace, but don't think he can fire a triple barrel

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
He probably showed you A4 or A8.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this gets posted if the TAG doesn't show either a busted flush draw or QQ-KK, something like that.

I doubt AJ or AQ is playing this way, maybe not even AK. The flop pseudo-minraise looks pretty fishy, and I'm not sure what the goal of that is. So from that perspective, it seems like if he's got you beat it's because he has a set. I guess he might get bluffy with KK here, and there are some flush draws in his range, but nevertheless it seems like it's probably a fairly close calldown.

[Wada]

Half pot bet on the turn, then a 2/3 pot bet on the river..geez did he show A3 or A5?

I can understand the call down, what about a check call on the flop to keep the pot small as possible, since you really dont have a big hand?

[prodonkey]

Tags don't call with worse aces.. they reraise preflop with better aces.. cept for maybe AT, AJ, and he's not playing that way with those.

Looks like he has a set.. or air.. and looks like air from the 1/2 pot on turn.. then bomb the river line. I'm gonna guess QKh or JQh

[reef2287]

gump if you were hero in that situation would you raise turn to get a cheap showdown? or am i totally off by thinking that

[prodonkey]

how are you getting a cheap showdown out of position?

[monkeymaps]

Im assuming that you figured any good aces woud have RR you preflop.

c/c line pretty much makes the most if villian has air and air only IMO.
If he is betting a draw your letting him set the price.
Very few TAGS 3 barrel.

So I guess you put him on a worse ace?

[Splossy]

I'm guessing a set or air too. I don't get KK or QQ - he's gonna reraise those preflop.

This looks a bit like a hand I posted yesterday to unanimous derision. Surely, without a strong read that the guy is playing back with air, it's just spew?

[reef2287]

i mean if you raise turn, my thinking is hes got to start questioning his hand, and will either check the river behind you or you can put out a small blocking bet and i don't think a tag raises this bet often, your line doesn't look weak and it could be cheaper than to just call his bet and allow him free roam on the river... if your thinking you have the best hand on the river

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
gump if you were hero in that situation would you raise turn to get a cheap showdown? or am i totally off by thinking that

[/ QUOTE ]

Being out of position, raising the turn won't necessarily get us a cheap showdown, as checking the river in that spot is going to look a little weird. Beyond that, raising the turn against this guy's likely range seems like a bad plan because you'll knock out the bluffs and get charged by the good hands.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing a set or air too. I don't get KK or QQ - he's gonna reraise those preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frequently, yes. But this is a blind battle, which means there's less need to isolate, and also lots of opportunities to get tricky if he doesn't go to town preflop. So I wouldn't commit to this viewpoint yet.

[reef2287]

i was thinking of raising and putting out a blocking bet on the river, but reevaluating it, that doesn't look good-- because only better hands are going to call my raise and now we're OPP in a funkier spot than we were... thanks

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Tags don't call with worse aces.. they reraise preflop with better aces.. cept for maybe AT, AJ, and he's not playing that way with those.

Looks like he has a set.. or air.. and looks like air from the 1/2 pot on turn.. then bomb the river line. I'm gonna guess QKh or JQh

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the post that best mirrors what was going through my mind.

My thoughts were… the player is a TAG. I felt it highly probable that he was raising me with the flush draw on the flop. I thought if he had a much better ace then me he likely would have raised me preflop. I didn't think he seemed the type to call a raise with an A8 or an A4. Obviously sets were in his range but by virtue of the there being two diamonds on the board, I have to give weight to how TAGs play draws in position. So the flop call is automatic. I even felt if he had a set he wouldn't have done a virtual minraise (It crossed my mind that he's buying a turn card) I don't think my hand is strong enough to 3 bet. I also think if I 3bet he folds anything I beat. More importantly, If he pushes, I can't call. So I called.

On the turn, I note that he bets 1/2 pot. Though I don't have enough experience with this person to know for sure, I don't think it feels strong. I stick with my read from the flop. He either has an ace, a flush draw or some kind of pair/flush draw combo. (though obviously he can't have a paired ace and a flush draw which increases my motive to call.)

River doesn't change anything for any hand he's likely playing. I think in these situations, out of position against an aggressive player, I like to induce a bet. If I bet and I'm right, I believe he folds almost everything I'm beating. I don't mind if he checks behind.

When he does bet, what strikes me is that he bet 1/2 pot on the turn and is now betting closer to 2/3 pot on the river. I actually think this is what led me to call. It didn't feel right to me that he bet this strongly after his weaker turn bet. If he flopped a set, I don't think he bets the turn so weakly. I also think he bets more then 1/2 pot on the turn, especially with a flush draw out there. I felt like his bet wasn't value but an attempt to make me fold. So I called.

Villain showed J /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif (Right on Prodonkey!)

I posted this because in hindsight its easy for me to think my thinking was spot on. But I'm never sure if it just seemed solid since I won it.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
i was thinking of raising and putting out a blocking bet on the river, but reevaluating it, that doesn't look good-- because only better hands are going to call my raise and now we're OPP in a funkier spot than we were... thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm still wondering... Is there an argument for playing more aggressively then I did? I was considering a blocking bet but I still keep thinking (1) most misses fold at this point (2) anything I beat is calling (3) For a decent player, they'll check/call any hand with showdown value (that isn't the nuts) and may bluff anything they fear is a loser-- A good hand will likely value bet something they think I will call (which is still hopefully less then the cost of me betting and getting raised)

[ilya]

JhQh is not air so i'm not sure in what sense Prodonkey is right on. i think you should lead the turn or even 4bet the flop. IMO you basically have the nuts on the flop against a TAG because bottom set is the only hand that could conceivably be beating you and even that probably re-raises preflop

i think "set or air" is a strange and bad read; sets are really unlikely and it doesn't feel like air either, i mean he's making it pretty easy for you to call him down with something like middle pair.

this is KK/QQ basically never IMO

[blackice781]

i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation. a set/2pr would shove and i would allow myself to get away from this hand. it is highly unlikely that the villain has an ace with a higher kicker than you since he didn't 3bet you preflop. if he calls the min 4bet on the flop, i shove any non-heart on the turn. if he shoves min 4bet on the flop, fold. i think this would be better than the weak/passive route.

[Cam5182]

I fold to that suspicious flop raise.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation. a set/2pr would shove and i would allow myself to get away from this hand. it is highly unlikely that the villain has an ace with a higher kicker than you since he didn't 3bet you preflop. if he calls the min 4bet on the flop, i shove any non-heart on the turn. if he shoves min 4bet on the flop, fold. i think this would be better than the weak/passive route.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean min-4 bet? I bet $3, he raised me $4... are you suggesting I raise it another $4? He's not going to fold any draw for another $4 (there'd be about a $20 pot at this point). And I'm opening the betting for another raise. Not sure the value of this.

[prodonkey]

I play this way vs certain people.. makes u look like a spewtard station sometimes.. but it works.

a flush draw is air till it hits.

I personally think I would have check raised him on the turn when I saw that weak bet.

blackice, since he raised and then bet 3 streets with his draw, seems likely he might have just shoved if hero got more agressive, pushing hero off the best hand.

[blackice781]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation. a set/2pr would shove and i would allow myself to get away from this hand. it is highly unlikely that the villain has an ace with a higher kicker than you since he didn't 3bet you preflop. if he calls the min 4bet on the flop, i shove any non-heart on the turn. if he shoves min 4bet on the flop, fold. i think this would be better than the weak/passive route.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean min-4 bet? I bet $3, he raised me $4... are you suggesting I raise it another $4? He's not going to fold any draw for another $4 (there'd be about a $20 pot at this point). And I'm opening the betting for another raise. Not sure the value of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

you mentioned that you've been tangling with him a lot and stealing his blinds. for this reason i 4bet the flop here to show strength and push the villain off any stone cold bluffs because it is very likely the villain is playing back at you.

the villain may choose to push here but that is highly unlikely. most are content with calling with the FD. however, we do not know what he has, so of course, we may be folding the best hand to his push here from time to time.

[monkover]

betting the turn imo is good to protect vs draws.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
JhQh is not air so i'm not sure in what sense Prodonkey is right on.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, on the river its air. I meant right on in that he put the villain on his hand.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO you basically have the nuts on the flop against a TAG because bottom set is the only hand that could conceivably be beating you and even that probably re-raises preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

You think most tags are 3 betting small pocket pairs preflop? I don't find most players 3 betting other tightish players preflop with hands other then the likes of AK or JJ-AA. Do you play above $50 tables? I suspect better players at higher stakes may reraise lighter more often.

I'm curious, ilya, what your thoughts are about the villains likely range the way it was played and how you would have played the hand. (I am a bit surprised that you say TP 9 kicker is the virtual nuts here)

[ QUOTE ]
this is KK/QQ basically never IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. If it was a calling station, maybe. But I don't think most TAGs are going to smoothcall here. If they do smoothcall here, they're not going to triple barrel it with the ace on the board and me smooth calling their raises.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
What, other than Ax, do you also min 3bet on the flop?

[blackice781]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
What, other than Ax, do you also min 3bet on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen this done by 2pr, set, FD, SD, the works.

[gumpzilla]

For those saying this would be a weird like for KK or QQ, I agree. But isn't it a weird line for any hand? How many people out there are minraising their flush draws?

[Rounder101]

so what do we beat here?, A6, A7 or a busted flush draw
I fold this on the turn.

[Jw513]

[ QUOTE ]


i think "set or air" is a strange and bad read; sets are really unlikely and it doesn't feel like air either, i mean he's making it pretty easy for you to call him down with something like middle pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

How is a set really unlikely in this spot???

[ilya]

I'd be a little worried about 44/A8/A4 but would think I was best most of the time against a lone 8, a flush draw, Axs, or maybe even a lone 4. He may be a TAG overall but this is a blind battle and as such I think he's more likely than normal to bet and call light. I'd probably call and lead turn and if he calls lead again on the river. If he raises again on the turn I probably do let it go.

NL50 is towards the lower end of what I've been playing recently so maybe I'm overestimating how often he'll 3-bet with 88/44/AT/AJ as ppl at NL100 and NL200 are more agressive.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


i think "set or air" is a strange and bad read; sets are really unlikely and it doesn't feel like air either, i mean he's making it pretty easy for you to call him down with something like middle pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

How is a set really unlikely in this spot???

[/ QUOTE ]

well i think AA and 88 re-raise almost always, so that's just 3 combos out of the many combos that fit with his line. ok sometimes AA and 88 flat-call, but 44 also sometimes re-raises.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
What, other than Ax, do you also min 3bet on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen this done by 2pr, set, FD, SD, the works.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the confusion, I meant what do you min 3bet here? Obviously a donk or TAGfish or whatever can do it with whatever, but you're the one in hero's shoes advocating a min 3bet.

[blackice781]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i actually like to make something along the lines of a min 4bet on the flop to find out i'm at in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
What, other than Ax, do you also min 3bet on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i've seen this done by 2pr, set, FD, SD, the works.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the confusion, I meant what do you min 3bet here? Obviously a donk or TAGfish or whatever can do it with whatever, but you're the one in hero's shoes advocating a min 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i play donk-like against donk. they leave me no choice.

[relativity_x]

for those of you saying the bet 1/2pot turn and 2/3rd river is a bluff, I think you're wrong.

Villain probably has hero on AK/AQ and thinks he's going to stack off here. I put villain on set/two pair here 90% of the time with 10% being a busted FD.

I don't call the river.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
for those of you saying the bet 1/2pot turn and 2/3rd river is a bluff, I think you're wrong.

Villain probably has hero on AK/AQ and thinks he's going to stack off here. I put villain on set/two pair here 90% of the time with 10% being a busted FD.

I don't call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted results. It was a busted flush draw. Which, I think the player played it well. Though I think this is quite often how aggressive players will bet flush draws. I definitely considered folding. I just felt the odds were sufficient that he had a flush. And I really felt that the river bet felt like he wanted a fold.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

So you invested most of your stack with top pair weak kicker? Makes sense to me...

[relativity_x]

this is a bad call. you'll lose money in the long run making calls like this in the future.

[kurto]

I went with a read based on my views on that type of player and what I sensed based on the board and bet sizing. And my read was spot on.

I don't advocate always calling with one pair. I thought the point of posting was this to discuss arguments about why this might be the right move against the right opponents.

If a person is playing a hand like they have a draw and you have top pair, are you suggesting that you fold every time a person bets the river?

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a bad call. you'll lose money in the long run making calls like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

That really depends on the opponent doesn't it? I believe I said in the first post taht I called specifically because the player was TAG and I made a series of assumptions based on what I know about how TAGs play. If the opponent was a calling station or a rock, I may even fold on the flop.

Is it your contention that top paper so-so kicker is never worth a showdown against an aggressive player?

[relativity_x]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain has TAG stats. As such I've been stealing his blinds.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you've been stealing his blinds, he's not been giving you any aggression/resistance. When he does, you automatically put him on a FD exclusively or at least enough to call a 2/3rd PSB on the river with TPNK?

I really think this thread was just a brag about your dead on read on villain.

I was just trying to let you know it's not a winning play in the long run. Specifically, this player seems very solid, and I doubt he'll bluff you ever again after you called that river.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
If you've been stealing his blinds, he's not been giving you any aggression/resistance. When he does, you automatically put him on a FD exclusively or at least enough to call a 2/3rd PSB on the river with TPNK?


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't post it if I wasn't open to hearing arguments. I outlined why I made the assumptions I did. And I know I don't have the best hand here all the time. The question is am I good here about 40% of the time, then I have to call. The way it was played, I thought the odds were he had a low set or a flush draw.

I fold hands that others would call nitty all the time. And I've repeatedly said if the player was a TAG, I would likely have folded.

I explained why I thought this was right. You haven't explained where my logic was flawed.

Assuming you're tag, you don't ever play a flush/gutshot draw the way he does?

I don't consider it a brag. If the majority of people articulated that it was foolhardy I would think it over. I don't get the impression it was horrible. One person who plays higher suggested that I was too passive! That I should have been raising.

[ QUOTE ]
I was just trying to let you know it's not a winning play in the long run. Specifically, this player seems very solid, and I doubt he'll bluff you ever again after you called that river.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, you may be right. And believe me, if the situation came up again between him and I, it would be in my mind that he knows I'll call down with top pair and I would give his river bet more consideration.

on another note- I believe there's a post in the FAQ section that talks about how, if you're playing laggy, you have to sometimes call down lighter when people are playing back you. You also have to consider the texture of the flop. So (1) if there wasn't a flush draw I'm not calling the river bet. (2) If I haven't been stealing his blinds, then I have to give him more respect. ie- because he thinks I'm being too aggressive, I have to realize he will play back lighter. This is stuff I'm trying to think about and incorporate into my game. And that is why I posted this hand. Believe me, I'm not successful enough at poker to have a lot of need to brag.

I am still learning and don't even consider myself that good a player. But I think about this

[relativity_x]

Here's my logic as to why this is a fold, as I previously stated.
[ QUOTE ]
for those of you saying the bet 1/2pot turn and 2/3rd river is a bluff, I think you're wrong.

Villain probably has hero on AK/AQ and thinks he's going to stack off here. I put villain on set/two pair here 90% of the time with 10% being a busted FD.

I don't call the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think villain has a flush draw 40% of the time, so this play is not profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
So (1) if there wasn't a flush draw I'm not calling the river bet. (2) If I haven't been stealing his blinds, then I have to give him more respect. ie- because he thinks I'm being too aggressive, I have to realize he will play back lighter.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to give him credit the first time he starts playing back at you. If this was like the 2nd/3rd time he's played back, then it's fine.