Party Pokers authority over obvious collusion [Archive]

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-05-2006, 03:49 AM

If a group of people are caught on party poker colluding, (by caught i mean evidence beyond reasonable doubt), what exactly can party poker do. Is there anyway they can take your money away? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I have read their guidelines and they state that they will report you to banks credit card companies etc.... (obviously ban you from the site)... how much damage would this likely do to a colluders personal line of credit?

I know there are a lot of poker playing lawyers (WYNTON) so i was hoping for some legal (not moral) insight from some of them, i will respond to all replys ASAP

ipp147

01-05-2006, 09:28 AM

From the T&C

[ QUOTE ]
19. Fraudulent Activities and Prohibited Transactions.

The Company has a zero tolerance policy towards inappropriate play and fraudulent activity. If, in the Company's sole determination, you are found to have cheated or attempted to defraud the Company or any other user of any of the Games in any way including but not limited to game manipulation or payment fraud, or if the Company suspects you of fraudulent payment, including use of stolen credit cards, or any other fraudulent activity (including any chargeback or other reversal of a payment) or prohibited transaction (including money laundering), the Company reserve’s the right to suspend and/or close your Account and to share this information (together with your identity) to other online gaming sites, banks, credit card companies, and appropriate agencies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that they online notify banks etc if you have used fraud or deception to get money into your account, not for colluding within games.

However,

[ QUOTE ]
21. Forfeiture & Account Closure.

21.1 THE COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT, IN ITS UNFETTERED DISCRETION AND IN RELATION TO YOUR ACCOUNT, ANY RELATED ESP ACCOUNT, ANY ACCOUNTS YOU MAY HAVE WITH OTHER SITES AND/OR CASINOS AND/OR SERVICES OWNED OR OPERATED BY OR ON BEHALF OF THE COMPANY AND ANY SERVICES THAT SHARE THE SHARED GAME/TABLE PLATFORM, TO WITHHOLD YOUR ACCOUNT BALANCE, SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT, AND RECOVER ANY PAY-OUTS, BONUSES AND WINNINGS IF:

(i) You are in breach of any term of this Agreement;

[/ QUOTE ]

Here if they find you colluding they can suspend your account and take your money. Given then legality of online poker in the US I doubt you could recover your funds.

Niediam

01-05-2006, 04:53 PM

They can literally take your money away because they decide that people who don't like Justin should all go broke...

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-05-2006, 10:12 PM

ya i do not know justin at all and am completely kidding, I am not trying to offend anybody... i could not have possibly been less serious when deciding a name, just a joke....

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-05-2006, 10:15 PM

than you for your help ipp... the reason why i was asking was because i had an idea to sit down at a table with ten of my friends (a holdem sit n go tournament) and tell eachother our cards... witht his information we will have an advantage over the 8:1 odds available for betting on the flop, however we would undoubtably get caught and it seems as tho we would not be able to keep our money anyway so oh well... thanks again ipp

Niediam

01-06-2006, 05:32 AM

I wasn't kidding when they said they can take your money because you don't like Justin though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyhow, yes that is cheating... yes you will probably be caught if you do it repeated times... yes they will take your money... and yes you will be hated here on 2+2.

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-06-2006, 06:06 AM

why would i be hated for getting money out of party poker, i would not be playing with or against any people i didn't know, therefore not cheating anybody out of their money

Niediam

01-06-2006, 07:20 AM

Oh... you mean to try and get on edge on if the flop will come all of one suit?

Interesting idea... I'm not smart enough to try and figure out the math behind it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But it is safe to assume your money will be confiscated if you are caught.

kerowo

01-06-2006, 08:51 AM

I haven't looked at the payout structure for sng's but does Party really pay out more than the buy in for the tourney? If not all you are doing is shuffling your freinds money around.

Mamet

01-06-2006, 08:56 AM

Yeah, he's talking about the sidebets.

I was thinking about doing this for a while too. Unfortunately, I realized that it's simply not worth it, even if you could escape all detection, because the max bet for the sidebets is $20. If you had a 5% advantage on each bet (which is probably too generous) that would average out to a whopping $1 per flop. Unless you were playing micro limits you and your friends would pay more than this in rake per hour, and the money you could pull in at the micro limits wouldn't be nearly as much as if you all got minimum wage jobs.

Ten people isn't completely necessary though... you could sit down with only 3 people and wait until five of the six cards were of one suit to bet, but that would be a pain because the three guys would have to worry about winning in the game in addition to saying "black black" every single hand over IM.

Kneel B4 Zod

01-06-2006, 09:07 AM

jacknine

01-06-2006, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]

i had an idea to sit down at a table with ten of my friends

[/ QUOTE ]

they have 11-seat STTs now? Wow, Party is so innovative!

MikeSmith

01-06-2006, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i had an idea to sit down at a table with ten of my friends

[/ QUOTE ]

they have 11-seat STTs now? Wow, Party is so innovative!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

pudley4

01-06-2006, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
than you for your help ipp... the reason why i was asking was because i had an idea to sit down at a table with ten of my friends (a holdem sit n go tournament) and tell eachother our cards... witht his information we will have an advantage over the 8:1 odds available for betting on the flop, however we would undoubtably get caught and it seems as tho we would not be able to keep our money anyway so oh well... thanks again ipp

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you have to place the bet before the cards are dealt? Good luck with this.

MaxPower

01-06-2006, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh... you mean to try and get on edge on if the flop will come all of one suit?

Interesting idea... I'm not smart enough to try and figure out the math behind it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But it is safe to assume your money will be confiscated if you are caught.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I think you have to make the sidebet before the cards are dealt. So you can't use this information.

Benholio

01-06-2006, 12:40 PM

Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you place a side bet, it is for the next hand. You can't wait and check your cards first.

TomCollins

01-06-2006, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you place a side bet, it is for the next hand. You can't wait and check your cards first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to burst your bubble, but I proved there is about a $1/hand benefit in this. No flop, bet goes to the next hand. If you can control if there is a flop or not, you are controlling if you are betting.

Benholio

01-06-2006, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but when you place a side bet, it is for the next hand. You can't wait and check your cards first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to burst your bubble, but I proved there is about a $1/hand benefit in this. No flop, bet goes to the next hand. If you can control if there is a flop or not, you are controlling if you are betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I see. So you already have your bets placed on say black, and if your cards aren't favorable for a black flop, you make sure there isn't a flop? I get it now.

CORed

01-06-2006, 03:10 PM

It won't work anyway. Once the hole cards have been dealt, the flop color side bet applies to the flop on the next hand. Party may be stupid, but they're not that stupid. I checked this out as soon as the bet was added. Acutally, just knowing your own hole cards would give you a slight edge on that bet, if only. Of course, the more information you have the better.

Mogobu The Fool

01-06-2006, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If a group of people are caught on party poker colluding, (by caught i mean evidence beyond reasonable doubt), what exactly can party poker do. Is there anyway they can take your money away? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they can lock your accounts and refuse to give you the cash. It has been done before when people have been caught cheating other players.

They will lock you for certain banned programs which give you an edge, but they usually cash you out. If you've been caught doing outright cheating of the system or other players, expect your money to be lost. Even cashouts you make just before getting caught can be reversed if they haven't cleared yet.

RikaKazak

01-06-2006, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why would i be hated for getting money out of party poker, i would not be playing with or against any people i didn't know, therefore not cheating anybody out of their money

[/ QUOTE ]

I think stealing from party poker is wrong. If you don't like the site, don't play there, but don't steal from them, they're a publicaly traded company and you're basically stealing from the shareholders.

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-06-2006, 06:01 PM

you guys need to run the math before saying stupid things like 1 dollar per flop... that is jus incorrect... if u're to lazy to do the math whatever i don't care.... but do not just make things up

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-06-2006, 06:04 PM

anyways... the math definately works out to a very sizeable edge for me and my ten friends sitting down at the same table... the rake is a measley ten dollars in a 5+1 tourney... so you guys who are talking about rake need to think before you speak.... two ears one mouth...the ONLY problem with this idea is that party poker has the authority to freeze my account once i make a bunch of money off the sidebet.... but hypothetically speaking if they could not do this, it would be guaranteed money and they would have to change their sidebet structure because if you put 10 people down at a table and knew 20 cards you would have an edge.... someone do the math to prove me wrong i'd like to see that

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-06-2006, 06:05 PM

me and my nine friends*

edfurlong

01-06-2006, 06:37 PM

Does party have private sit and goes? Because I have trouble finding a table that isn't in round three, much less one that hasn't started with an open seat.

SammyKid11

01-06-2006, 06:53 PM

My suggestion is that you find out if Party Poker ever moves money in an armored truck. Then, you and your nine or ten friends should rob that truck using kitchen knives. Then you can request an internet connection in prison and place sidebets while getting raped. Do it.

Edit to Add: Or, you could just learn how to play poker or get a job and quit trying to cheat a system that those of us who work hard find profitable.

PartyPoker

01-07-2006, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If a group of people are caught on party poker colluding, (by caught i mean evidence beyond reasonable doubt), what exactly can party poker do. Is there anyway they can take your money away? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi ZjustinISaLOSER,
Collusion is illegal, against the company or the players. Funds earned by collusion will most definately be confiscated.
If you tell your account name we will send you a hat and t-shirt.

uboot

01-07-2006, 03:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
anyways... the math definately works out to a very sizeable edge for me and my ten friends sitting down at the same table... the rake is a measley ten dollars in a 5+1 tourney... so you guys who are talking about rake need to think before you speak.... two ears one mouth...the ONLY problem with this idea is that party poker has the authority to freeze my account once i make a bunch of money off the sidebet.... but hypothetically speaking if they could not do this, it would be guaranteed money and they would have to change their sidebet structure because if you put 10 people down at a table and knew 20 cards you would have an edge.... someone do the math to prove me wrong i'd like to see that

Justin

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

StellarWind

01-07-2006, 03:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i was hoping for some legal (not moral) insight from some of them

[/ QUOTE ]
The legal answer is that your idea is criminal fraud in most countries. The fact that your victim is overseas and/or running an illegal business is unlikely to be a defense.

I'm not suggesting that anyone would ever dream of prosecuting you.

On a more practical note, this type of collusion on a level required to be +EV is glaringly obvious and you will surely be caught before you make any appreciable money. I don't know what will happen next, but:

1. Why shouldn't Party keep your money?

2. Who is going to stop them?

3. How could going to court possibly work out in your favor? In addition to all the usual problems with suing Party you would clearly be in the legal and moral wrong.

Heck, if you show up with a lawyer in the wrong country maybe someone would prosecute you /images/graemlins/blush.gif.

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-08-2006, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a group of people are caught on party poker colluding, (by caught i mean evidence beyond reasonable doubt), what exactly can party poker do. Is there anyway they can take your money away? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

DURRR OK

Hi ZjustinISaLOSER,
Collusion is illegal, against the company or the players. Funds earned by collusion will most definately be confiscated.
If you tell your account name we will send you a hat and t-shirt.

[/ QUOTE ]

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-08-2006, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i was hoping for some legal (not moral) insight from some of them

[/ QUOTE ]
The legal answer is that your idea is criminal fraud in most countries. The fact that your victim is overseas and/or running an illegal business is unlikely to be a defense.

I'm not suggesting that anyone would ever dream of prosecuting you.

On a more practical note, this type of collusion on a level required to be +EV is glaringly obvious and you will surely be caught before you make any appreciable money. I don't know what will happen next, but:

1. Why shouldn't Party keep your money?

2. Who is going to stop them?

3. How could going to court possibly work out in your favor? In addition to all the usual problems with suing Party you would clearly be in the legal and moral wrong.

Heck, if you show up with a lawyer in the wrong country maybe someone would prosecute you /images/graemlins/blush.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya this is what i figured, i was hoping there was some chance that they'd only have the power to ban me from the site and not keep my money... anyway for those of you who actually understood what i was saying and answered my questions thank you... for those of you who didn't and just felt like critcizing an idea you dont understand... well i'm to nice to say anything rude /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Quicksilvre

01-08-2006, 01:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a group of people are caught on party poker colluding, (by caught i mean evidence beyond reasonable doubt), what exactly can party poker do. Is there anyway they can take your money away? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi ZjustinISaLOSER,
Collusion is illegal, against the company or the players. Funds earned by collusion will most definately be confiscated.
If you tell your account name we will send you a kick in the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

ZjustinISaLOSER

01-08-2006, 09:56 PM

honestly who is that party poker name i'm very curious

Andrew Karpinski

04-29-2006, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a group of people are caught on party poker colluding, (by caught i mean evidence beyond reasonable doubt), what exactly can party poker do. Is there anyway they can take your money away? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi ZjustinISaLOSER,
Collusion is illegal, against the company or the players. Funds earned by collusion will most definately be confiscated.
If you tell your account name we will send you a hat and t-shirt.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTFY

TimWillTell

04-29-2006, 08:26 PM

Reading this thread, and then reading another thread, I got the impression that ZjustinISaLOOSER in fact really put his idea into practice.
Here is the other thread that made me think this way.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post5631761 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5631761&an=0&page=0#Post 5631761)

betadecay

04-29-2006, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It won't work anyway. Once the hole cards have been dealt, the flop color side bet applies to the flop on the next hand. Party may be stupid, but they're not that stupid. I checked this out as soon as the bet was added. Acutally, just knowing your own hole cards would give you a slight edge on that bet, if only. Of course, the more information you have the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are missing the point. They make the bet and fold around till they get a good edge going into the flop. They bet on black, everyone gets black cards, they all fold and no flop comes. Continue until the majority of cards dealt out are red.

OP you talk about the math, and I'd be interested in seeing it. I don't understand why you had planned to do this in a sit n go. Makes more sense to sit down at a .5/1 table when traffic is slow. I see empty limit tables all the time.