Let's do street for street cuz we haven't done that in a while!

[Fiksdal]

OK so I played a hand just now that had a couple of interesting decisions in it. I'll post all decisions seperatley because that is fun. If you contribute to the discussion, please try to add some reasoning for why you think the play that you are advocating is in fact the optimal one.

Preflop 1:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $118.65
BB: $35.15
UTG: $57.10
Hero (CO): $49.25
BTN: $54.30

Reads: <font color="blue">We have been running 28/18/0 over only 32 hands at the table. Two of the villains behind us have VPIPs &gt; 40. Rest are TAGs.</font>

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds,

Hero?

[tms]

5 handed from the CO, raise it up $2

[hunt1897]

Your standard pre-flop raise.

[BishopsFinger]

'5 handed from the CO raise it up to $2' at a normal table mebbe.

but stealing is less attractive due to the droolers behind us.
fe is greatly decreased and we may well be denied absolute position.

im for folding. (and im pretty damned loose from LP)

[thac]

There's 3 villains behind us.. which ones are the droolers and which one is the TAG? Raise it up to 2, or fold pre.. For the thread's sake, raise to 2.

[corsakh]

I pretty much never raise this when there is a 40vpip otb. Next hand please /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[jack492505]

If one of the 40vpip's is the button I'm folding. hate play this OOP.

[Baintz]

Which of the droolers have the VPIP &gt;40%? If its both blinds then standard raise. If the button can be tricky , then I may fold, depends how they play postflop.

Presumably you raised, or this will a pretty dulll thread.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
'5 handed from the CO raise it up to $2' at a normal table mebbe.

but stealing is less attractive due to the droolers behind us.
fe is greatly decreased and we may well be denied absolute position.

im for folding. (and im pretty damned loose from LP)

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy birthday man!

fwiw BTN was the TAG and BB was the loose one.

And because of the clowns behind us, I actually folded. Thanks for discussion guys.









lol, jk obv

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $4.50</font>, BB folds

<font color="blue">SB is one of the clowns. He is 46/29/2.7 over 41 hands. His cbet rate is 100%. WTSD 29%, W@SD 75%. </font>

Hero?

[hunt1897]

Easy Call.

[sightless]

call cal call call call call call

[BishopsFinger]

call.

stats cant be wholly reliable for obv reasons but something fishy = perhaps he will be donating postflop and we're getting sick odds to see 3 whole cards.

[Fiksdal]

Yeah I know, next decision.

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $4.50</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $2.50

So I was obv kinda uncomfortable here when I got 3bet, but pot odds are too great to fold in position here. I am calling for implied odds, but its not unlikely that I will try to float, etc. in some situations. Basically I am calling because I believe I have a postflop advantage, especially when I have position and villain has a full stack.


Flop 1:

Flop: ($9.50) 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $5.00</font>,

zomg we has TWO GUTSHOTS. Plan?

[tms]

Call in position with good odds. Doubt we have enough FE in a raise.

edit: first response was for pf

[Spurious]

Raise to 20

[corsakh]

Easy fold. Your not deep enough to play this hand even in position even to a min raise. With no flush, your implied odds are crippled. Your reversed implied against his range are huge since KJ and QJ is probably his median for 3betting. Pick your spots.

4betting could be an interesting idea, but first I am not sure he folds even KQ. And second, I really prefer doing this if they were suited. Your chances to flop anything playable are minimal.

[dersl]

call.

there is no point in raising if you get good odds

[corsakh]

Call. Whoever says raise should stop FPS'ing.

[sightless]

i call flop

[hunt1897]

Easy Raise. You are basically open ended. His bet screams weakness.

[Fiksdal]

To those who say call: Is it partially a float? What do you do on a blank turn if villain checks?

[sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
To those who say call: Is it partially a float? What do you do on a blank turn if villain checks?

[/ QUOTE ]

check behind

[corsakh]

[censored] float. Just check behind. You don't need to outplay idiots, you just need to show them a better hand.

[TheLemonShark]

I'd call flop and bet if he checks turn. Reasoning for this is that I don't expect him to fold any ace, so raising will only fold out worse hands that will fold to a turn bet, which is cheaper and not as risky; if we raise now he might 3-bet big. I'd rather call to try and get my straight, then if he has a big hand we'll stack him, and if he has something like a pair of kings or worse, he will likely fold to a substantional turn bet. The only thing I'm slightly worried about is a turn check raise, but I don't know if he capable of doing that seeing his stats.

[tms]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored] float. Just check behind. You don't need to outplay idiots, you just need to show them a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

[BishopsFinger]

i smoothcall here (and again i normally play draw fast so interesting spot)
for calling:
-6 well concealed outs
-quite aggro opponent means we may well get paid a lot by ak/aq
-if he doesnt have the ace then its likely we will be able to check behind on the turn as he will have a hard time second barreling into that board with jj. this gives us a second shot at the straight (improving our odds) or to try to take it off him if we fancy it (i prefer a check)
-i also dont like a raise so much as the bet he has made is smallish, and we may well get 3 bet ai by ak/aq

[pepper123]

I like turn check a ton if he checks and here's the reason.

If his 3bet range is reasonable then he has

AK (tptk)
AQ (top two)
KK (one of our gutter outs sets him up)
QQ (already set up)
JJ/TT (might be able to steal on river anyway
99 (again, our gutter sets him up)

Any more hands are just hands we can steal from on the river if we choose.


So he either has a big hand or a hand that we can steal from on the river anyway OR he has KK which gives us mad implied odds on the top end of our double gutter.

[phatjeffrey]

call flop...

- if turn makes our straight :
1) villain bets , we call/ raise (depends which we think extracts more)
2) villain checks , we bet

-if turn is a diamond :

1)if villain bets smallish : we call because we have Jd and still the straight draws.
2) if villain bets big : we fold
3) if villain checks : we bet representing the flush , if he calls we still have alot of outs.

if turn is a blank :
1) call if we have right odds
2) fold if we dont
3) check behind if checked to us .. re-eval river

[Fiksdal]

OK, like most off the posters here have advocated, I elected to just call the 1/2 pot bet, getting almost correct expressed odds, and certainly correct when you put implied odds into the picture. I didn't raise because stack sizes suck for it (I have to call a shove), and if I want to bluff him, I should at least to it on the turn instead if he checks. Not that I am 100% doing that though..

Flop: ($9.50) 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $5.00</font>, Hero calls $5.00

Turn 1:

Turn: ($19.50) 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB checks,

What to do, and why?

[DaycareInferno]

i still check. he probably has JJ or something. i always feel really dumb when i put a bad player on a hand, bet into them with a worse hand, and then get called. "yep, he does have JJ. boy am i smart!"

[BishopsFinger]

check.

-you dont want to be inflating the pot and playing for stacks with jack high.
-we have a shedload of outs (albeit only some clean ones) and thus have a decent chance of having a hand with good showdown value on the end.
-he may well be a drooler so our fe may be very low as i dont think most idiot villains will fold an ace here.
-why turn our hand into a bluff?
hand

[thac]

I check behind. I'm not interested in bluffing here when we have a good draw. If we get c/r we have to throw this away but if we hit our straight, we maybe stack KK, or we get value from KQ. How much does villain have left?

[yellowbluebus]

Grunch

Open-limping in the CO is bad, folding is an option considering your image at the table. With 2 donkeys behind you I wouldn't be surprised if they just called the raise but if you can fold the button you will have position. So, raising here is fine as long as you play disciplined post-flop. Is BB a TAG that forgot to reload or is he the other donkey?

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
How much does villain have left?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have $40ish behind and villain covers.

[catoandtonic]

Check behind.

[yellowbluebus]

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $4.50</font>, BB folds

<font color="blue">SB is one of the clowns. He is 46/29/2.7 over 41 hands. His cbet rate is 100%. WTSD 29%, W@SD 75%. </font>

Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch

Here folds; end of thread.

Here calls obv. You have position and his min-3-bet is enticing.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much does villain have left?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have $40ish behind and villain covers.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy check behind then.. any bet commits us and it'd be foolish to get it in here when we can see a river for free

[yellowbluebus]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop 1:

Flop: ($9.50) 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $5.00</font>,

zomg we has TWO GUTSHOTS. Plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero calls. Raising here is spewing.

[yellowbluebus]

If the turn if blank and villain checks, I'd check behind in this spot.

[Fiksdal]

To those who are checking behind: Are we bluffing if villain checks to us again on a blank river?

[thac]

No because we don't play an ace or a set this way and if villain is a maniac he's gonna look us up light even if we DID play an ace or a set this way.

River action plz.

[DaycareInferno]

i would check again on the river, because i just know i'm going to get called by JJ nomatter how much i bet.

[Mike Kelley]

Does nobody give villain credit for the flush draw his tiny blocking continuation bet gave him the correct odds to draw for? I either fold this hand on the flop, or call with one of my possible reads being he was trying to draw at the flush cheaply.

I think we check way behind on the turn, We could be drawing dead if villain has the flush.

[DaycareInferno]

not really. what hand that he 3bets preflop is going to make a flush draw on that board?

[catoandtonic]

He doesnt seem to be a showdown monkey but hand sample is low. Most of his looseness/aggression seems to be preflop. I think his weak c-bet then checking twice is showing he doesnt have an ace. I like bluffing river, but also think checking behind and giving up is ok.

[Mike Kelley]

[ QUOTE ]
not really. what hand that he 3bets preflop is going to make a flush draw on that board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know I didn't notice and PFR%'s

[castigar]

I hate vilains with over 40% vip behind me when I'm trying to steal with unsuited connectors from the CO.

I'd look at their % of folding to CB and steals and then decide. If they fold a lot, I raise it up to 2$.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
not really. what hand that he 3bets preflop is going to make a flush draw on that board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any suited ace, any suited broadways.. anything. He's a maniac, he doesn't play standard

[DaycareInferno]

there is no suited broadway he could have other than KJ. if he has an A, then he's got more than just a flush draw.

the guy is loose, but that doesn't neccessarily mean he's 3betting out of the blinds with anything he would call or raise with.

[prodonkey]

If you're going to bluff at the pot I think the turn is the time to do it. I'd bet $12

[BishopsFinger]

im not bluffing this river.
get looked up by an enormous part of his range.
i think a whole lot of micro-stakes players (especially me) bluff too frequently in these spots and its a MAJOR leak - its so bad because the size of bluff often put a serious dent in your winrate

[castigar]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, like most off the posters here have advocated, I elected to just call the 1/2 pot bet, getting almost correct expressed odds

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say you almost get the correct expressed odds? You have 6 sure outs, which is 6.7:1.. You get 3:1 from that pot.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
there is no suited broadway he could have other than KJ. if he has an A, then he's got more than just a flush draw.

the guy is loose, but that doesn't neccessarily mean he's 3betting out of the blinds with anything he would call or raise with.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can still have A2dd here.. I mean, I don't get why you say 'what can he 3-bet that already has a flush' when he's 46/29

[Mike Kelley]

[ QUOTE ]
there is no suited broadway he could have other than KJ. if he has an A, then he's got more than just a flush draw.

the guy is loose, but that doesn't neccessarily mean he's 3betting out of the blinds with anything he would call or raise with.

[/ QUOTE ]


I saw a question from a TAG (2+2)'er yesterday where they had 3 bet from the SB with KQs and they were needing advice.

My advice was don't 3bet a mediocre hand from OOP. Maniacs have no concept of position.

My advice to this hero is to get up from this table keep an eye on it and when the seat to the right of these donks opens up sit down and take their money.

I've been on a jumping from table to table kick lately though, really focusing on position.

[prodonkey]

why would you want to be on a maniacs immediate right?

[Mike Kelley]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to be on a maniacs immediate right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this need any explanation? He's a maniac right? Where do you want to be sitting when he raises? Before him or after him?

[castigar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to be on a maniacs immediate right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this need any explanation? He's a maniac right? Where do you want to be sitting when he raises? Before him or after him?

[/ QUOTE ]

After, so you want to be on his left..

[prodonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to be on a maniacs immediate right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this need any explanation? He's a maniac right? Where do you want to be sitting when he raises? Before him or after him?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather be on his left, it's not like a maniac at a limit table that's going to be running you into 4-5 callers every hand.

Being able to isolate, and having position on him is huge.

[Fiksdal]

Turn: ($19.50) 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($19.50) 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $10.00</font>, Hero?

[thac]

We have $40 left and he looks like he's blocking. I probably shove here and call it a cooler if he has diamonds. He'll have 2-pair here a decent amount of the time I think, and he's not folding I'm almost sure.

[Fetzi]

AI

[catoandtonic]

Hero shoves.

[Mike Kelley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to be on a maniacs immediate right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this need any explanation? He's a maniac right? Where do you want to be sitting when he raises? Before him or after him?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather be on his left, it's not like a maniac at a limit table that's going to be running you into 4-5 callers every hand.

Being able to isolate, and having position on him is huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL at myself. left of them is what I meant to say, to my right is where I want them.

[Mike Kelley]

[ QUOTE ]
We have $40 left and he looks like he's blocking. I probably shove here and call it a cooler if he has diamonds. He'll have 2-pair here a decent amount of the time I think, and he's not folding I'm almost sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just calling. Does two pair call your all in with a flush and a straight possible on the board?

[DaycareInferno]

i guess i'd have to move in since i already said i don't feel like i could bluff this guy off a jj. i wouldn't argue with anyone that just raised to $25 and called a push (obv) though.

[castigar]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: ($19.50) 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($19.50) 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $10.00</font>, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shove, with these stats he'll often call with 2 pairs.

[prodonkey]

Ugh I dunno.. flip a coin, call or shove. I guess since he is a drooler I shove.

[ajmargarine]

Bet turn. As played, shove rivah.

[TheyCallMeDonk]

yes, shove river

[DaycareInferno]

the suspsense is killing me.

[yellowbluebus]

Hero pushes.

[Fiksdal]

Thanks for discussion, folks. Here is the entire hand incluing results:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $118.65
BB: $35.15
UTG: $57.10
Hero (CO): $49.25
BTN: $54.30

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $4.50</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $2.50

Flop: ($9.50) 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $5.00</font>, Hero calls $5.00

Turn: ($19.50) 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($19.50) 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $10.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $39.75</font>, SB calls $29.75

Pot Size: $99.00 ($3 Rake)

SB had A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (two pair, Aces and Queens) and LOST (-$49.25)
Hero had J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (a straight, Queen high) and WON (+$46.75)

[thac]

wp fiks

[DaycareInferno]

i wonder if he intended to check any card on the flop, or if he suffers from the same flushaphobic condition that seems to afflict so many people.

edit: turn that is

[terencetsao]

nice hand

[Fetzi]

Agree, very well played.