100NL, A8s, and c-betting high card flop

[_TKO_]

Villain is 22/19/9. Preflop 3-bet is not standard.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $152.05
Hero (BB): $106.60
UTG: $91.15
CO: $152.60
BTN: $110.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $4.00</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $13.00</font>, BTN calls $9.00

Flop: ($26.50) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
Hero ...

[sightless]

I Bet 22 and thats probably the last $I invest here 0:

[_TKO_]

Instinctively, this seems like a pretty bad flop to c-bet, since it probably hits his range pretty well.

[sightless]

cbetting sucks here, i just cant think of anything else id do in this spot.

[EMc]

cbetting here turns your hand into a total bluff (which well, it kinda is anyway. On top of that I think he is raising any bet you make here every time.

[Heine]

I think c-betting is standard. He folds almost all the small pairs he's hopping to hit a set with. If we put his calling range high like AQ+ and 1010+ i think it sucks, but that range is WAY to narrow.

I think sightless nailed it. Bet/f and then c/f the rest of it.

[sightless]

up you go

[reef2287]

from a villan like that, aren't you WA or WB his raising range from the button right there so i like a c-bet because you either take it down with your TP but on a call or a raise, now he shows you your most likely WB or outplayed you with his position, which is just a risk we take when we 3-bet a8 OOP

[monkeymaps]

I cant see doing anything else but bet, yeah It turns your hand into a bluff but your not going to c/f.

and i think his range includes alot of small PP and SC that missed.

How light do you think he calls your 3bet? he has position and knows your 3bet might just be a resteal so that might even broden his range more.

[EMc]

guys who are looking to move up,

I really think you should read this thread and try to get us a decent discussion, this situation is more common than you think and well, we are already in a pot the size of a by in at your prveious limit.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
cbetting here turns your hand into a total bluff (which well, it kinda is anyway. On top of that I think he is raising any bet you make here every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? just that his flop prob hit his range? not saying your wrong just not quite sure villian always raises your c-bet here?

[crushednuts]

let us not forget that villains range is wide open here and includes any ace and most kings, scs, small pairs etc. It is a scary flop for him and you hit top pair. I think a bet here is good and a check is terrible as he will bet 95% of the time and you can't call a bet.

provided that he doesn't have KQ here i think a bet will take this down the majority of the time

[MrGrand]

I do not like 3b PF at all
I would bet out ~21 and give up
Yes it turns our hand into a bluff
however c/c makes it incredibly easy to bluff us out
like half of the deck is a bad card for us
c/f is to weak
Actually the more I think about it I do not like either line but I like b/f the most.
I might be wrong though here

[AroundTheHorn]

one might argue for not 3betting A8 oop, but since we did and got called, i think we have to fire one more time, then shut it down. i'm not sure what your c-betting tendencies are, but villian knows this is a scary board, so he's gotta give you credit if your betting this flop, no?

i just don't see what other option you have other than betting, surely this won't get checked down to the river.

[vixticator]

This moved here for discussion? I'll give it a shot but more detailed reads would be great.

I can think of two scenarios. First, he is super aggro, if we check is he betting? Have we ever 3-bet and checked? What percent of his PF button raising range is he calling with in position? I think quite a bit of it. When I check and he bets, I am shoving. Assume he bets $20, the pot is $46.50 and we have $73 behind. I believe he will fold Axs, unless he has two pair, this is a mistake. He has to call with two diamonds, we are a favorite right? We are close to dead against KQ, TT, JJ, AT, AJ and he will never fold those IMO. He's also never folding hands like KdJd, we will pick up some outs on the turn against JT. He could fold AQ here, probably not, but it would be huge mistake if he did. If he checks behind I am happy because the pot is smaller and fire an $18 bet see what happens.

We could lead the flop but I think because he called PF he's not just folding to c-bet and will either float or shove over us. Do we call shove? I don't think so. If he floats, the pot will be like $76 and we need to open shove turn.

Thoughts?

[DaycareInferno]

i would cbet about 18$. yes, we have a marginal hand, but clearly in a 3bet pot oop with TPNK we are not going to be able to play to showdown in the dark, so i don't see that as very relevent here. my only concern is whether or not my cbet will show a profit, and i think it will. even though the flop hooks up with a lot of hands, a lot of those hands still aren't going to make the call, even in position. i think villain's range is wide enough here for me to bet and then shut down.

[reef2287]

vixicator, say we c-bet and he just calls, he can call with such a wide range, as he knows we can fire that bet with any 2 cards since we showed strength preflop, what do you do on turn? it has to kind of scare you he just cold-called and didn't reraise and i like the crai line here because if we check hes cbetting almost 100 percent mostly against hands we beat, but what if we c-bet and he coldcalled... now what? i'm lost to this scenario

[jonyy6788]

this is exactly the reason you don't 3bet a RIO hand OOP

let him steal your $1 FFS

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
vixicator, say we c-bet and he just calls, he can call with such a wide range, as he knows we can fire that bet with any 2 cards since we showed strength preflop, what do you do on turn?

[/ QUOTE ]I addressed this part. If he floats our c-bet I am open shoving the turn. He will float a lot like you said, doesn't really need to have a hand. We can't c/f and the pot is too large to CRAI now. Open shove turn is best IMO. I make c-bet size that the pot is large enough to shove turn.

[crushednuts]

yeah weak aces are terrible hands to defend with i've found. I'd much rather defend with a hand that has more potential than reverse implied odds..

[monkeymaps]

given board texture and preflop action I dont know how you guys can say he floats us with a wide range? WTF board clearly hit one of us hard I dont mind a c-bet but he isnt calling a c-bet with ANYTHING we beat IMO. open pushing is super bad IMO

[reef2287]

sry im a newb at reading ... does cold call not show any strength then in your book? your prob right vs. a super aggressive but that line just looks seemingly odd to open shove into him

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
given board texture and preflop action I dont know how you guys can say he floats us with a wide range? WTF board clearly hit one of us hard I dont mind a c-bet but he isnt calling a c-bet with ANYTHING we beat IMO. open pushing is super bad IMO

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, but the texture of the board is such that any hand that calls c-bet rather than shoving over it can't like most turn cards. It gives him another opportunity to fold the best hand or one that chops. Shoving into a diamond will look spewy when he calls and the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on board makes our shove a bit more suspect but if we are 3-betting A8s here I assume we're doing the same with 6d7d every now and then, right? I'm just kind of throwing ideas around. Shoving all turns FWIW, diamond was just an example. I think unless he snapcalls the turn he will have to fold.