deep pf spot

[Guruman]

re:villains - I need to find a new table.

we're all pretty deep here, and this is a playing for stacks situation.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $44.50
Guruman: $29.90
CO: $27.90
Button: $48.70
SB: $26.45
BB: $24.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Guruman is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman raises to $1.25</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $5</font>, UTG calls, Guruman...

given the action so far I'm positive that an AKish hand is mixed in there somewhere, and it looks like a big pp as well - the question is how big?

I'm a former limit player that is completely unused to not auto-capping this hand pf vs everyone, so bear with me:

I'm not closing the action so I can't call, we're really deep so making a mistake on a push is disastrous. that only leaves folding if we rule out someone making a play at a big pot. We should generally be able to rule that out though, as dudes arent ballsy/stupid enough to do that at this level. Is this correct?

[BevillTheDevil]

at 25NL i dont mind get AI w/ QQ pf and we do have FE in a push here and take down a decent pot if it does fold around. Against unknowns this spot is kinda wierd and tbh im not sure whats the best play. I guess you could call pf and most likely BTN will call behind then you can look for set??

[corsakh]

Push at 25NL is atrocious. Call and play the flop. Depends on opponent and your history with him, but I would probably c/c if no ace no king comes. Sometimes a raise on a rag board can be profitable because he will be calling with JJ-TT, sometimes even with AK but probably not this deep. Against some types its better to set mine.

[tarheeljks]

we have 120bb, how are we deep?

[corsakh]

Sorry we are not deep at all, I looked at wrong stacks.

[Capone]

[ QUOTE ]
Push at 25NL is atrocious. Call and play the flop. Depends on opponent and your history with him, but I would probably c/c if no ace no king comes. Sometimes a raise on a rag board can be profitable because he will be calling with JJ-TT, sometimes even with AK but probably not this deep. Against some types its better to set mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Utg called, and button is still left to act, why do we want to call.

QQ plays a lot better HU then against 4 players.

[Kasane]

This isn't deep at all.

I think we have to rr here with UTG cold calling 2 and button still to call (any two he called with originally will still call). What's BB playing like? I guess it hardly matters except extremely nitty, but you reraise and call a push reluctantly.

[Peter Harris]

Guru, you need 150BB before you even begin to approach "deep". You are right that shoving is a disaster as it forces most opponents to play perfect (calling AA/KK/AKs). you should be calling and seeing how the flop comes down. I know you're not last to act, but you are seriously curtailed by your hand and how it's going to be valued on the flop.

I say call, hope last to act doesn't reopen betting, flop top set and profit.

[Capone]

[ QUOTE ]
Guru, you need 150BB before you even begin to approach "deep". You are right that shoving is a disaster as it forces most opponents to play perfect (calling AA/KK/AKs). you should be calling and seeing how the flop comes down. I know you're not last to act, but you are seriously curtailed by your hand and how it's going to be valued on the flop.

I say call, hope last to act doesn't reopen betting, flop top set and profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

g00t advice.

[vixticator]

Pot is like $13ish (I think more). You have only put in $1.25 and this is push or fold isn't it? I go all in here because of all the dead money, UTG and Button seem to be donating. BB basically minraised... leads me to believe he's an idiot. So, I push and gamble. Certainly one if not two people are calling.

[Capone]

Do you think they call with worse then AK, AA, KK vix?

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think they call with worse then AK, AA, KK vix?

[/ QUOTE ]I think UTG is calling/donating based on his PF play and I doubt he has any of these hands. BB probably doesn't call lighter, if he ever folds AK for some reason that would be awesome. It's certainly close, we have a bit of FE. Expect both of them to call at least half the time. Both fold very rarely. One calls almost always. Lots of dead money. Decent gambling spot.

[Guruman]

thx all.

I figured that rolling up on 1.5 x BI was getting deep (hell I figured a full buy in all around was deep) but I'm still calibrating, so there's that.

I folded out of an expectation that I'd do something stupid on the flop no matter what happened, button 'wtf'd and tanked, then folded. flop came low and a $10 cont bet took it.

To further the discussion:

If I make the call, button folds and I get checked to on an underflop I still have a whole big buncha mistakes to make:

1)cont betting and folding to a CRshove
2)cont betting and calling a CRshove
3)checking through and kicking the cat when an A falls on the turn

This hand is playing very awkwardly for me because it sits right on the fence between a set-mining hand and a showdown hand pf and on any underflop. showdown hands don't want lots of opponents in the pot with them, and set-mining hands want as much implied odds as they can get - so the two strategies compete and lead to big mistakes in a big pot - hence the fold.

[corsakh]

Your not cbetting since your not the preflop aggressor. With a pot this big you should be getting it all in on any no A no K flop.

[EMc]

with the 2 calls i probably just get it over and shove.