25NL: donkish or ok?

[thenewnoise]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($61)
Button ($25.90)
SB ($81.75)
Hero ($23.45)
UTG ($7.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.85) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.85</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12.2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $29.15 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $11.85 (All-In).

Turn: ($48.95) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($48.95) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $48.96

[vixticator]

I can't put button on a hand. So, I'd play for stacks with two pair here.

[Xanta]

Any reads? Since the flop is so dry, people are going to have trouble stacking off with one pair here, which is the only thing that you beat. I'm not so sure that 3betting is good here, he just doesn't call with worse often enough (maybe an incorrect assumption at 25NL, haven't played there in a while)

An alternate line might be just calling the flop raise and going for a check/raise all in on the turn, to make it harder for him to get away from his ace.

[thenewnoise]

No reads i wasn't at the table long

[Xanta]

vix, while it's a narrow range, 77, A7 and K7 are all reasonable hands for button to have.

[Scrubbo]

i can't think of a hand that you're beating here
as xanta said i think a7, 77, k7 are the most likely plus maybe limped aces because some people at these levels love to do that.

[thenewnoise]

So should i have folded when he raises to 3.50 on the flop? If I just call then what am i supposed to do on the turn? Its very unlikely that i will improve.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
vix, while it's a narrow range, 77, A7 and K7 are all reasonable hands for button to have.

[/ QUOTE ]A7 seems to be most likely, AA/KK is getting slowplayed on this flop like always. But, I expect to see AJ/AT/A9 too. I don't give opponents much credit readless when I am strong, so I will felt when a limper goes crazy on this flop. I'll kind of hate it when he has the best of it but I'm losing most of my stack calling down either way...

[Xanta]

[ QUOTE ]
So should i have folded when he raises to 3.50 on the flop? If I just call then what am i supposed to do on the turn? Its very unlikely that i will improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a very very important distinction that makes all the difference in this hand.

Your hand is on average better than the hands that he raises with.
Your hand is on average worse than the hands he calls a 3bet with.

Do you see why calling is best now?

[gedanken]

Maybe it's just me, but I hate 2pair at no limit. I always seem to lose a lot of money with it. Bottom 2, especially. I just want to fold when I see it.

Of course, that's a little nitty. But you've seen a free flop, could have what you represent, and button doesn't care. That makes it a clear fold, maybe as soon as his first raise, but certainly at the all-in.

Would a flop checkraise be more productive? We get more value when we're ahead, and can be more sure we're beat when we get 3bet.

[thenewnoise]

Ok but if I call am I supposed to fold to any bet on the turn? I don't see how calling is good at all since I am usually not going to improve. And if i just call the turn / river most of the money is going to be in the pot anyways.

I understand what you are saying about the 3bet though. I think it either has to be a fold or push on the flop?

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand is on average worse than the hands he calls a 3bet with.

Do you see why calling is best now?

[/ QUOTE ]This is an interesting point. I assume we call down right? The pot will be a lot smaller unless he overshoves at some point.

[thenewnoise]

[ QUOTE ]

Would a flop checkraise be more productive? We get more value when we're ahead, and can be more sure we're beat when we get 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]



but can you usually count on a check raise here? With a limper and the two blinds in the pot.

[Xanta]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok but if I call am I supposed to fold to any bet on the turn? I don't see how calling is good at all since I am usually not going to improve. And if i just call the turn / river most of the money is going to be in the pot anyways.

I understand what you are saying about the 3bet though. I think it either has to be a fold or push on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hells no you don't fold to a bet on the turn. Dude probably has AT and thinks he's taking you to valuetown. You really don't have to worry about improving versus his range after he raises the first time, because you're already ahead of it because Ax is such a big part of it. I'd probably check/call turn and re-evaluate the river, betting it for sure if the turn got checked through.

You're right that a lot of money is going to go into the pot, but he's going to feel much more comfortable with just top pair if you don't 3bet the flop.

[Xanta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Would a flop checkraise be more productive? We get more value when we're ahead, and can be more sure we're beat when we get 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]



but can you usually count on a check raise here? With a limper and the two blinds in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 100% correct, flop bet is mandatory. You can't count on a bet and people will call a bet in a limped pot with all kinds of garbage. Get value while there's value to be got.

[thenewnoise]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Would a flop checkraise be more productive? We get more value when we're ahead, and can be more sure we're beat when we get 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


but can you usually count on a check raise here? With a limper and the two blinds in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 100% correct, flop bet is mandatory. You can't count on a bet and people will call a bet in a limped pot with all kinds of garbage. Get value while there's value to be got.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least I thought about part of the hand correctly

[iamVillaiNmo]

Just 3-bet shove the flop.

[Xanta]

[ QUOTE ]
Just 3-bet shove the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reasons please, 5 word responses don't help anyone.

[iamVillaiNmo]

OK,

1. MP and BTN Limp. To me, how often does anyone, even if it was MP, actually limp in here with AK,KK, or AA. If they did, whatever, with no read, I felt here.

2. Leading with two-pair is the best option because you are waiting for someone to raise and you can come over the top for the rest of your money. You are not deep here so it is not a radical move to just 3-bet push. I like, trying to get money in as fast as possible here as opposed to letting the villain see another card.

[iamVillaiNmo]

I must say, I am refering to the way OP played this hand.

Like, I would always make my decison based on a read here. There are times when I might just call and fold the turn if I have too because Xanta is right when he says 77 and A7 are absolutly reasonalbe hands that can show here.

Personally, I don't think it makes a difference too much if you call get-in here and they have a better hand as long as you are not make tons of mistakes in your game, regarding other areas.

[thenewnoise]

I don't know what mistakes I'm making thats why im posting here

[Xanta]

The average villain will not stack off here with less than AT, and the average villain is probably going to raise AT+. I just can't see us being ahead enough if our shove is ever called.

[iamVillaiNmo]

Well, as played, when the Villain 4bet you- He has better than one-pair most likely.

Like I said before, I would try to not get in this spot becuase I would try to think about what they most likely have.

If they are idiots that will felt with TP, lets get it in.