25nl: Would you ever flat call a flopped boat on river?

[antman1437]

If you fear that opponent might actually have AA? Villain is a standard player who has only been around for 10 hands or so.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $3</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($6.35, 3 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.35, 3 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.35, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $10</font>, hero...

[homeslice]

stack sizes?

[wulfpacker21]

bet the turn... and bet around $4


need to include stacks that would help alot here especcially on the river for a value bet

[Profish2285]

No, push all in. The more you think about it the more money you cost yourself over time. If he had aces this time Im sorry, but you will see Kx all the time, even 88 or 55 are possible, and once in a while a random bluff or overplayed lone ace. You could list a million hands you beat and one hand you lose to in this situation.

[antman1437]

We both had full stacks of $25

[Profish2285]

Do stack sizes even matter here honestly? This seems like such a standard push, this guy would have to be the uber nit to even consider just calling, and even then I probably still push.

[barryc83]

if you hate money flat call the river, if you really really love money then push. also bet the turn.

[wulfpacker21]

[ QUOTE ]
Do stack sizes even matter here honestly? This seems like such a standard push, this guy would have to be the uber nit to even consider just calling, and even then I probably still push.

[/ QUOTE ]

they matter a ton.... if hero has $70 here and villian has another 50 your not shovin

[Profish2285]

Nah to be honest, im puttin 200bb in here, and 99.99% of people would. Like I said, I would need some crazy read to think about flat calling with the second nuts against anybody, let alone an unknown. The only read I see is that the op is that he fears AA, which means he showed AA this time. However, he will be showing tons of random stuff that we beat.

[jessyj07]

You should def. just call. He probably has AK too. He never has 88/55 and sometimes has AA. The only random K he could have is KQ that would reraise preflop and he owuld have bet teh flop with that. If you push he will put you on AK and you will lose if he calls.

[jessyj07]

[ QUOTE ]
Nah to be honest, im puttin 200bb in here, and 99.99% of people would. Like I said, I would need some crazy read to think about flat calling with the second nuts against anybody, let alone an unknown. The only read I see is that the op is that he fears AA, which means he showed AA this time. However, he will be showing tons of random stuff that we beat.

[/ QUOTE ]qfs

[Profish2285]

What is the logic for him never having 88 or 55 here? People never 3-bet these pf and then check flop when it comes out like that? There are no reads on villain yet youre assuming things. How do you know villain doesnt have K10 here. 14 hands with someone doesnt give you any idea of how they play. I you are flat calling here then you like leaving money on the table.

[jessyj07]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the logic for him never having 88 or 55 here? People never 3-bet these pf and then check flop when it comes out like that?

[/ QUOTE ]No, people are never 3-betting 88/55 at the $25.

[Profish2285]

Well I play $50, so I guess one level makes a HUGE difference here because I have ran into a handful of players who 3-bet with less than that. I honestly think you give way too much credit to an unknown here, dont forget this is uNL and like said, you will see many random holdings that after all you can think is, "wtf?"

[antman1437]

I only feared AA because well, that's the only possible hand that could beat me on the river. During the hand on flop and turn, i felt he perhaps had QQ or JJ at the very least. But the river didn't make sense as he would never re-raise with either hands. Nor would he re-raise preflop w/ KQ or 88 doubtfully.

[jessyj07]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I play $50, so I guess one level makes a HUGE difference here because I have ran into a handful of players who 3-bet with less than that. I honestly think you give way too much credit to an unknown here, dont forget this is uNL and like said, you will see many random holdings that after all you can think is, "wtf?"

[/ QUOTE ]In general I disagree pretty strongly and in this hand I disagree even more. I also play the $50 and there are not many people who will reraise w/55 or 88.

[Profish2285]

I didnt say everyone, I said a handful. Im not saying its a huge part of his range, but it is a huge mistake to discount it completely if the only experience we have with villain is 14 hands. Not to sound like an ass, but it just really seems like this is very results oriented and there are definitely a number of hands that could play like this that we beat.

[jessyj07]

So very few times we're winning and the majority of the time we're chopping or losing? So you push why?

[vixticator]

Shove river with $25 every time. I don't like waiting until river to bet though. Flop check is fine, on turn you want to bet with air here quite a bit so I'd hope he has a King or miraculously hit 88 now or thinks you are stealing and calls because of position.

[Profish2285]

I dont know why you assume we are chopping or losing the majority of time. People play trips in weird ways, and this line is one I have seen numerous times before with trips.

[wulfpacker21]

this post is a joke if your not calling here pm me your username... if he has AA out of the blue just take its a cooler

[jessyj07]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know why you assume we are chopping or losing the majority of time.

[/ QUOTE ]This is actually what you said in different wording in the previous post.

[Profish2285]

Where did I say we are chopping or losing in any of my posts in this thread?

[wulfpacker21]

this just looks like this guy posted this cause he put all his money in and lost to AA

[antman1437]

[ QUOTE ]
this just looks like this guy posted this cause he put all his money in and lost to AA

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only because of this. I want to know the thought process more so than anything.

[tarheeljks]

if you didn't go broke on this hand you should just quit this game.

[Bonesy]

Ant, I don't know what you are really looking for here. I can come up with a bunch of hands an unknown villain could 3bet you with that you are crushing on the river. If you ran into AA then it sucks and you may not see a hand like it for a very long time, but not raising the river is horrible beyond belief. I agree with a previous poster who would get it all in 200bb deep. Don't be so results oriented. Sometimes you play it correctly and get smashed.

[Profish2285]

Whew its good to see people are agreeing with me, I felt like I was missing something here.

[antman1437]

I don't feel i am that results orientated. I was fine after that, no tilt. Just wondering if people would ever contemplate flat calling. Everyone here just re-affirmed what I figured and did. Shoved the river.