WTF Florida? No rebuys in NL???

[Atomic]

Looking at this statement -

(b) A dealer in games of Texas Hold’em played without wagering limits for a buy-in not to exceed $100 pursuant to Section 849.086(8)(b), Florida Statutes, shall not allow a player to purchase additional chips or tokens to play once the player’s buy-in for those games of Texas Hold’em have been exhausted.

This is from this pdf file
http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/text/61d-11_cardroom_rules_draft_2007-07-17.pdf

which is from this page of the Florida Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering Pari-Mutuel and Cardroom Rule Development

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/notices/pmw_notices.shtml


There was a cardroom rules development workshop today and I hope this is not what came out of that meeting. Someone tell me I've got this all wrong. Please.

[Legislurker]

Does the average player give a [censored] about the law? You would think there would be some way to exert political pressure if the cardrooms are constantly packed. I know the casino industry fears the day players organize, but maybe they will look away if someone sets up a state lobbying group.

[BigRed1]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking at this statement -

(b) A dealer in games of Texas Hold’em played without wagering limits for a buy-in not to exceed $100 pursuant to Section 849.086(8)(b), Florida Statutes, shall not allow a player to purchase additional chips or tokens to play once the player’s buy-in for those games of Texas Hold’em have been exhausted.

This is from this pdf file
http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/text/61d-11_cardroom_rules_draft_2007-07-17.pdf

which is from this page of the Florida Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering Pari-Mutuel and Cardroom Rule Development

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/notices/pmw_notices.shtml



[/ QUOTE ]

Badly worded, I take it to mean that you cannot rebuy while in a hand. (At least I HOPE that is what it means).

[techvoodoo]

At the Naples-Ft.Myers Greyhound track, which I haven't been to in a week or more, the rule was you can't rebuy chips until you've gone completely broke.

You had to buy-in for exactly $100, no more no less, and even if you had $1 left on the table from you buy-in you could not get more chips until you had $0 on the table.

Not sure if this has changed. That was the way it was standing as of about a week ago.

[dozer]

I spoke recently with someone with knowledge of the situation in a South Florida card room. They are fighting this and other new rules by the Div. of Pari-Mutuels as we speak. One rule includes tedious red tape for payouts for jackpots, including just one per day, and certain regulations for security purposes. Bottom line: The price of playing poker is going to go up everywhere except the Seminole rooms unless these policies are fought and defeated.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
At the Naples-Ft.Myers Greyhound track, which I haven't been to in a week or more, the rule was you can't rebuy chips until you've gone completely broke.

You had to buy-in for exactly $100, no more no less, and even if you had $1 left on the table from you buy-in you could not get more chips until you had $0 on the table.

Not sure if this has changed. That was the way it was standing as of about a week ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also the rule at Flagler Dog Track.

[Legislurker]

Someone should make up a flier, write Charlie Crist's office number on it, and pass it out, and have every poker player in Florida call it twice a day until sane poker regulations are out.

[bball233]

Hamilton Jai-Alai in Jasper allows players to rebuy anytime to top off to $100. Dealers don't even care to count your stack... easy to rebuy to $120 or so.

Not that that explains the actual legislation, just what they're doing for now.

[MicroBob]

Wow.

It would sure help things if ANYBODY involved with these regulations had any clue how to write or how poker works.

It very much reads like, "Once a player loses their $100 buy-in they are not allowed to play anymore."

Seriously, this shouldn't be that difficult yet they keep finding various ways to screw it up.
I feel like the PartyPoker promotions and support-team are working with the U.S. again and are trying to set up live games in Fla.

[four2flush]

Does anyone have first hand info on what transpired at this Div. Pari mutual meeting? Supposedly it was to set in stone the guidlines for max buyis and jackpot awarding and the like. Haven't been able to get answers from anyone in Daytona. And they still haven't set up any jackpot awards or rakes. They have the slots for the jackpot rakes but they aren't dropping yet.

[soulvamp]

FWIW, a cardroom manager who I won't name here in South Florida said that is indeed what the parimutuel board intends: if you lose your $100 buyin, you can't immediately buy back in. It's their way to limit people's losses and keep them from getting in over their head. What they want to do is to basically force people into a timeout after they lose their stack -- force you to leave the table while the game continues and at least have a cooling-off period. It's the same motivation as Missouri's forced loss limits.

The cardrooms, of course, are opposed to that.

[NY60]

I've read this and I still don't believe it!!!

Are they out of their minds????

This regulations, at least how I read it, means that you buy in for $100 and cannot be re-sold chips until the TOTAL $100 is exhausted. With regard to cooling off periods, I don't see that.

I can't see this regulation, if passed, standing judicial scrutiny.

Let's start with LIMIT hold'em first. I can buy in for whatever amount then proceed to mount losses at the rate of $80 per hand, every hand for as long as there is equity remaining in my home. BUT, I can maximize my WINNINGS on any given GOOD HAND that I am dealt simply by making sure that I always have $80 in front of me at the start of a hand. In essence there are no RESTRICTIONS on my ability to WIN the MAXIMIUM LEVERAGE AMOUNT OF $80 per hand if I so choose to risk such amount.

Now the equal protection problem comes in. With a NO LIMIT Hold'em game, the MAXIMUM LEVERAGE AMOUNT that I can bring to bare on the very first hand I play is $100. OK, so far so good. But what if I decide that my first hand is only worth $40 and I bet that amount and lose the hand. Now what? I only have $60 left to leverage my next playable hand and I cannot, as a matter of law, INCREASE that amount until I lose it all.

In other words, by trying to limit losses, the Department has substantially restricted my ability to WIN. Indeed, this policy ENCOURAGES a GREATER PERCENTAGE OF LOSSES and totally defeats the intent of the statute.

[grinin]

[ QUOTE ]
At the Naples-Ft.Myers Greyhound track, which I haven't been to in a week or more, the rule was you can't rebuy chips until you've gone completely broke.

even if you had $1 left on the table from your buy-in you could not get more chips until you had $0 on the table.



[/ QUOTE ]

This rule was interesting when we had a guy who would go in with any two cards when he had less than $50 in front of him.

I was card dead for a couple hours, when I got down to about $65 I played until UTG, picked up my chips went to the bathroom, went to the "cage" and bought back up to $100 (not from the dealer) then sat back in for $100 before the round was even up.

They said if there was a wait I would have had to get on the list.

[Atomic]

Here is a link to the workshopped jackpot rules.

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/text/61d-11_cardroom_jackpot_draft_2007-07-19.pdf

[Legislurker]

Until the players revolt, nothing will change.

[bigslickmark]

I spoke with the manager of Gulfstream Park poker room. He was at the meeting. The proposed rules and the intent was that you would have to be completely out of chips before you could rebuy. All of cardrooms opposed this rule and explained how it actually could hurt a poker player (NY60's analysis above was right on). He was confident that the proposed rule will be scrubbed and that the final rule will allow rebuy's up to $100. The state legislator who drafted the law was in attendence and he also opposed the rule.

We have to remember the people on the pari-mutuel board who draft these rulse do not know a thing about poker. That is why there are proposed rules and then card managers have the ability to attend the workshops to help write the final rules. The best was to influence a rule is to get to know the manager of the card room you play in and lobby him. He attends the workshops and he also deals with the board.

[NY60]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a link to the workshopped jackpot rules.

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/text/61d-11_cardroom_jackpot_draft_2007-07-19.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

OK....(just as stupid) This one hurts the cardrooms and the players.

First, the cardrooms have to go out and buy new SPECIALLY COLORED jackpot chips.

OK, not really so bad...but what about...FILL ON 13 NEED MORE JACKPOT CHIPS...ok stop the game AGAIN...not to mention the additional mechanical strokes the dealers must now make almost each and every hand to change out the one dollar chip for a jackpot chip.

OH, and what about...new dealer coming in...FLOOR, THIS WELL IS NOT RIGHT THERE IS A JACKPOT CHIP MISSING...STOP THE GAME AGAIN....GOOD GOD NOT ANOTHER MISSING JACKPOT CHIP!!!!!!!!

[NY60]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a link to the workshopped jackpot rules.

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/text/61d-11_cardroom_jackpot_draft_2007-07-19.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]


OH, this one is a peach... "The award of a jackpot, prize, or giveaway shall not be conditioned upon any combinations of cards held by other players or upon the outcome of the game."

The way I read this...no more bad beat jackpots...not that I give a flying rat's @#% anyway....

[Legislurker]

Jackpots are an important overlay to an everyday medium range player. 20/40 and 2/5NL players or so. If you play everyday in a room with a $1 jackpot drop you have EV over irregular players. Drawings based on frequent play can net you 3 figures extra a day. More if you are friends with floors and dealers. I was a losing player when I hit my first bad beat and that gave me the cushion I needed to get my game fixed and start turning a profit(also got me hooked on poker). If you are going to try to make a living in Fla good jackpots will be as important as getting ungay buyins.

[DonButtons]

any chance of florida games getting big buyins again?

[bigslickmark]

My opinion is that we will not see big buyin games for a while. I think that if the Seminoles are allowed to offer Class 3 table games like blackjck and roulette, then I don't think the Seminoles will offer poker anymore. Class 3 games are much more profitable for the Seminoles then poker and it will force poker players to play at the pari mutuels which is good for the state.

Over time we may see the limits raised again or the hours changed but I don't think it will be done for at least three to five years. It took six years for the state to get rid of $10 max pot and another four years to raise the limits again. I wouldn't bet on another raise so quickly.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion is that we will not see big buyin games for a while. I think that if the Seminoles are allowed to offer Class 3 table games like blackjck and roulette, then I don't think the Seminoles will offer poker anymore. Class 3 games are much more profitable for the Seminoles then poker and it will force poker players to play at the pari mutuels which is good for the state.

Over time we may see the limits raised again or the hours changed but I don't think it will be done for at least three to five years. It took six years for the state to get rid of $10 max pot and another four years to raise the limits again. I wouldn't bet on another raise so quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great points here. I don't know if the Seminoles will eliminate poker completely if they get Class III gaming, but I certainly don't think they will care about pushing high-stakes poker. I guess they would probably keep at least some poker tables to get that crowd into the casino, but poker they certainly wouldn't consider it a key revenue source.

And I can't see the state allowing higher stakes for awhile. At a certain point, you just can't get any more rake from the tables, and I think we've probably reached that point. So there would be no motivation to raise the limits.

[Dennisa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is a link to the workshopped jackpot rules.

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/text/61d-11_cardroom_jackpot_draft_2007-07-19.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

OK....(just as stupid) This one hurts the cardrooms and the players.

First, the cardrooms have to go out and buy new SPECIALLY COLORED jackpot chips.

OK, not really so bad...but what about...FILL ON 13 NEED MORE JACKPOT CHIPS...ok stop the game AGAIN...not to mention the additional mechanical strokes the dealers must now make almost each and every hand to change out the one dollar chip for a jackpot chip.

OH, and what about...new dealer coming in...FLOOR, THIS WELL IS NOT RIGHT THERE IS A JACKPOT CHIP MISSING...STOP THE GAME AGAIN....GOOD GOD NOT ANOTHER MISSING JACKPOT CHIP!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why the dealers should buy their own bank and carry it from table to table.

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is a link to the workshopped jackpot rules.

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pmw/workshops/text/61d-11_cardroom_jackpot_draft_2007-07-19.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

OK....(just as stupid) This one hurts the cardrooms and the players.

First, the cardrooms have to go out and buy new SPECIALLY COLORED jackpot chips.

OK, not really so bad...but what about...FILL ON 13 NEED MORE JACKPOT CHIPS...ok stop the game AGAIN...not to mention the additional mechanical strokes the dealers must now make almost each and every hand to change out the one dollar chip for a jackpot chip.

OH, and what about...new dealer coming in...FLOOR, THIS WELL IS NOT RIGHT THERE IS A JACKPOT CHIP MISSING...STOP THE GAME AGAIN....GOOD GOD NOT ANOTHER MISSING JACKPOT CHIP!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats why the dealers should buy their own bank and carry it from table to table.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do that at Gulfstream. I think it might be the only room in South Florida where that's true.

I think you've touched on one thing that has been very irritating in post-7/1 Florida poker: There are constant dealer delays, even at the limit tables. They have to stop to sell chips. They take entirely too long to count the bank at the beginning of their shift at a table. They have to get a bank fill. They have to sell more chips and get another bank fill and then count the bank yet again. They have to make change but are short of white chips so they have to get another bank fill. It's ridiculous.

A simple solution: Don't sell chips to a player who has just sat down. Having a player rebuy is one thing. But every time a new player sits at a table, it delays the game while the dealer has to stop and count out chips, which leaves him short of chips again. Make it a policy that a player has to purchase chips at the cashier window before sitting at a table. That would eliminate about 75% of the delays.

[wpr101]

How are you supposed to play any type of NL game with only 100? Do they offer less than 1/2 NL?

[soulvamp]

[ QUOTE ]
How are you supposed to play any type of NL game with only 100? Do they offer less than 1/2 NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. But they have 2/5 if you prefer.

[Backspin20]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How are you supposed to play any type of NL game with only 100? Do they offer less than 1/2 NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. But they have 2/5 if you prefer.

[/ QUOTE ]

100$ 2/5 awsome!
I can hear it now.."well i have a monster but if I call my last 60 and lose then im done so...I FOLD"

[soulvamp]

Just learned that the Hard Rock Hollywood offers 5/10 NL (with the same $100 buyin). Sound ridiculous? Well, they had two tables going today and there was a waiting list.

[infamouzBlinds]

yup
generally withthe 5/10 its a a bunch of guys who bring 500-1000$ and just go all in trying to double up
if they dont doubleup
they rebuy right away.
if they do double up they try to work theyre way to 500-1000$ for the day
sit down and take the people that come in with 100,lol

[allbad]

whine whine whine, at least you guys have poker. In Texas, birthplace of Texas Hold'em, I have to drive a minimum of 4 hours to find legal poker. Sorry, I'm still bitter about OUR poker legislation getting stalled and have nothing better to do while we wait 2 more years for the legis to meet again. You can ignore this threadjack... or flame it... doesn't matter to me.

[Fishhead24]

[ QUOTE ]
How are you supposed to play any type of NL game with only 100? Do they offer less than 1/2 NL?

[/ QUOTE ]

Understand, after a little while, the players stacks increase...........the new blood to the table are usually the only ones shortstacked.

Really not that bad.

[dozer]

Got an update from a manager who was at the meetings in Tallahassee, but really it's a non-update. Managers from all the FL poker rooms were there along with other officials and their arguments were aired. Nothing was done as the officials seemingly listened and didn't act either for or against the managers' wishes. We're in a holding pattern.