Raising small pocket pairs over limpers out of the blinds

[Fiksdal]

Although I tried it a couple of times in my session today, I normally never do it. discussed this with Supwithbates one time though, and he said he would typically do it.

Example:
UTG folds, MP folds, CO limps, BTN limps, SB folds, Hero makes it 6bbs from BB with 66.

Thoughts on the pros/cons of this?

[Nogatsira]

I do it all the time.
Limpers are weak and if you hit your set, you rather want 18BB in then 3BB.

[Fiksdal]

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $23.48
Hero (BB): $53.25
UTG: $8.58
MP: $16.55
CO: $18.65
BTN: $24.83

Preflop: Hero is dealt 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP checks, CO calls $0.50, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, MP calls $2.50, CO folds

Flop: ($6.75) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif Jhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.50</font>, MP folds

Pot Size: $11.25

[Sherman]

Con: Seems like it would leave you check/crying on the turn a lot.

Pro: Seems that you 1) pick up bigger pots 2/3 of the time when opponents whiff. 2) build bigger pots for your sets 3) Almost always know where you are at by the turn. 4) Often get to see 4 cards rather than just 3.

Con: A good player in position will probably float you on the flop a lot, once again leaving you check/crying on the turn.

[DaycareInferno]

cons:

a lot of times you will get called by both limpers and be unable to cbet a lot of flops

your range of possible hands becomes much smaller than XX

you will have the lead out of position against a very wide range when you see a flop

sometimes you will bump out a hand that would have paid you had you checked

pros:

you will win the pot more often

the pot will be larger when you hit your set

you will get more action (per hand) when you hit your set

sometimes you will chase out a hand that would have beaten you postflop

[KEW]

I used to never raise small pair, then I always raised them now I mostly raise them....

Depends a lot on stack sizes..Lately I've been seeing more players with buy ins less then 100BBs not short but not full either vs these limpers I see no value in raising from the blinds...vs 100BBs+ stacks I will raise..

Assume full buy ins:
PROS
-Easier to stack villains in raised pot
-I am amazed at how often a raise from the blinds and the limpers fold
-Takes control of the pot and force villain(s) to hit the flop..C-bet will often take the pot down unimproved..
-mixes up your play...You can not only raise AA/KK from the blinds..
-Good for your image..

CONS:
-puts more money into the pot from OOP..
-often it is not neccessary to raise and bloat the pot to stack a weak player that is open limping anyway..
-cuts down on your implied odds..
-will sometimes get limp reraised off our hand and lose the opportunity to flop our set vs villains big pair..
-Some weak limper do not like to fold on the flop whether they hit it or not...

[Waingro]

I am usually fairly passive pf ootb. I frequently check my option in the bb with a lot of playable hands like ATo, KJo, JTs that plays pretty well vs a limpers range. However, I raise all pairs religiously, it is just such a waste of a good hand not to. Most of the time they don´t have anything to pay you off with if you check.

[Triggerle]

A pp is a legitimate hand, even after most flops. By raising, we turn a legitimate hand into a bluff most of the time. This is fine if we can get through with bluffs often. If you have calling stations as limpers I prefer to go with my hand's value instead, though. This is especially true if the limpers are likely to pay off sets in unraised pots.

[Jzo19]

[ QUOTE ]
A pp is a legitimate hand, even after most flops. By raising, we turn a legitimate hand into a bluff most of the time. This is fine if we can get through with bluffs often. If you have calling stations as limpers I prefer to go with my hand's value instead, though. This is especially true if the limpers are likely to pay off sets in unraised pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
A pp is a legitimate hand, even after most flops. By raising, we turn a legitimate hand into a bluff most of the time. This is fine if we can get through with bluffs often. If you have calling stations as limpers I prefer to go with my hand's value instead, though. This is especially true if the limpers are likely to pay off sets in unraised pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does raising turn a small pair into a bluff????

[RainbowBright]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A pp is a legitimate hand, even after most flops. By raising, we turn a legitimate hand into a bluff most of the time. This is fine if we can get through with bluffs often. If you have calling stations as limpers I prefer to go with my hand's value instead, though. This is especially true if the limpers are likely to pay off sets in unraised pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does raising turn a small pair into a bluff????

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't. But if you don't hit a set and your continuation bet gets callen then your likely behind.

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A pp is a legitimate hand, even after most flops. By raising, we turn a legitimate hand into a bluff most of the time. This is fine if we can get through with bluffs often. If you have calling stations as limpers I prefer to go with my hand's value instead, though. This is especially true if the limpers are likely to pay off sets in unraised pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree to a point. It is not legit hand after MOST flops if it is multiway...you only win if its checked down all the way or if you bluff it. If you want to bluff it you will usually do better to semibluff preflop and if you don't get all folds THEN you at least have a legit hand heads up.

That being said, if its likely to get more than one caller I will just play for sets or minimal showdown value often.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]


How does raising turn a small pair into a bluff????

[/ QUOTE ]

Because with small PPs most flops will contain overcards. With family pots this means we are beaten a lot of the time and can win only by bluffing.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree to a point. It is not legit hand after MOST flops if it is multiway...

[/ QUOTE ]

It is still a legit hand even if we are beat because we will know most of the time that we are beat. This is semantics, of course, and I think we mean the same thing.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


How does raising turn a small pair into a bluff????

[/ QUOTE ]

Because with small PPs most flops will contain overcards. With family pots this means we are beaten a lot of the time and can win only by bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising PF in NO WAY turns our hand into a BLUFF..On the flop we likely will be bluffing(often with the best hand)..In fact by raising PF we add value to our MOST likely bluff on the flop and will take down the pot UI more often on the flop since we raised PF..

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


How does raising turn a small pair into a bluff????

[/ QUOTE ]

Because with small PPs most flops will contain overcards. With family pots this means we are beaten a lot of the time and can win only by bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising PF in NO WAY turns our hand into a BLUFF..On the flop we likely will be bluffing(often with the best hand)..In fact by raising PF we add value to our MOST likely bluff on the flop and will take down the pot UI more often on the flop since we raised PF..

[/ QUOTE ]

Check NLHETAP concept Number 27 for turning legitimate hands into bluffs pre-flop out of the blinds.

[shoxbb6]

I do this all the time especially if the limpers are weak, you'll take it down a good portion of the time preflop and your opponents have defined their hand by the preflop action.

[wildzer0]

I'm more likely to do it with late position limpers because for most weak players, limping in late position means they have absolute garbage that they're willing to fold to a pfr. Be wary if they're likely to hold on to their trash too long though.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
Check NLHETAP concept Number 27 for turning legitimate hands into bluffs pre-flop out of the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok help me out here because I can´t really follow your reasoning. What does it say?