2NL: Overpair dealing with min-raise from X-pert villain

[Fiksdal]

A respected poster from MTT who is trying some cash games PMd me this hand asking for advice. I told him to shove, but I'm actually not so sure about it as I was at first.

<font color="blue">UTG is 56/0 over 30 hands.</font>

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($3.68)
BB ($2.64)
UTG ($1.01)
Hero ($5.31)
CO ($0.99)
Button ($3)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.09, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.08.

Flop: ($0.32) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.22, SB calls $0.22, UTG raises to $0.44,

Hero?

[corsakh]

Shovel.

[prodonkey]

shove, it's $2

[Mr_Pathetic]

Every time I shove in these situations AT THESE STAKES it is always 2pr. If you do not like folding this flop then call and see what he does on turn. If he checks turn and you send some more army men out and he minraises again just let him take your men hostage and wait till another hand to send the rescue squad out. If he leads turn you can just call or fold. I need a read that villains C/MR TP to continue sending any more of my army here.

[mvdgaag]

I shove... prolly AQ, KQ, AT, whatev... I feel anything under 5NL is as bad for your game as playing for fun. Your friend is better off playing at 10/25NL if he's a good MTT'er. Even if he's underrolled he's better off playing poker than playing bingo at 2NL.

[Fiksdal]

This is not true IMO. Given the level of play, and the 250bbs deep aspect, amazing winrates can be sustained at 2NL. An excellent place to build your bankroll and get experienced with deeper stacks than donkaments. He has a roll though, so I'm sure he will move up sometime soon.

[Mr_Pathetic]

[ QUOTE ]
I shove... prolly AQ, KQ, AT, whatev... I feel anything under 5NL is as bad for your game as playing for fun. Your friend is better off playing at 10/25NL if he's a good MTT'er. Even if he's underrolled he's better off playing poker than playing bingo at 2NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

These stakes can be murdered if you know how to play DEEP. I only buyin for 3 here and never overbet and still win for around 11 PTBB even after going on a 10k breakeventiltament. If I actually had enough to buyin for 5 and overbet sets or better I could easily get this to double if not more. Besides most villains are super passive here and will only play back with what they see as monsters making it even easier.

[mvdgaag]

Yeah, the (relative) winrates are fine, but to get experienced playing cashgames this is going in the wrong direction.

[Mr_Pathetic]

It is not much different then NL 10. I have played many hands from NL 2 to NL 25 and only at NL 25 do things change somewhat. Just at NL 2 and NL 5 it is almost never good to go broke with overpairs or TP hands. For example, in 15k hands at NL 5 I have lost over $110 on AA-JJ and AK. Why? Because I run bad tilt and think shoving overpairs is good idea against passives who are deep while I am deep.

And for all you people who think people do not think down here you are nuts. Granted more do not think then at higher levels some still do and you must be paying strict attention to figure them out. But you should be noticing people in every hand whether you're in it or not and if you do do this then you will easily know who is there for fun and who is there to win. It's not hard at all. The hardest part is not to look at it in terms of money which is the same as when you make it to MSNL or HSNL. Just cause it is two dollars should never influence your decision just like if the bet is $1000 should never influence your decision.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the (relative) winrates are fine, but to get experienced playing cashgames this is going in the wrong direction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you gradually move up to the tougher levels. Stars has an excellent selection of stakes, and you will be able to slowly adapt to tougher games.

[monkover]

well i´m shoving

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not much different then NL 10. I have played many hands from NL 2 to NL 25 and only at NL 25 do things change somewhat. Just at NL 2 and NL 5 it is almost never good to go broke with overpairs or TP hands. For example, in 15k hands at NL 5 I have lost over $110 on AA-JJ and AK. Why? Because I run bad tilt and think shoving overpairs is good idea against passives who are deep while I am deep.

And for all you people who think people do not think down here you are nuts. Granted more do not think then at higher levels some still do and you must be paying strict attention to figure them out. But you should be noticing people in every hand whether you're in it or not and if you do do this then you will easily know who is there for fun and who is there to win. It's not hard at all. The hardest part is not to look at it in terms of money which is the same as when you make it to MSNL or HSNL. Just cause it is two dollars should never influence your decision just like if the bet is $1000 should never influence your decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I am the MTT regular who played this hand.

I pretty much agree with the above quoted statements entirely.

On this specific hand, it seemed odd to me that a passive villain would min-check/raise for 1/2 of his chips on this flop. I figured he had to have at least two pair.

In just one day of playing NL2, I had this read on most villains: "I'll min-raise with my monsters (and overbet shove the river with them), otherwise I just call everything."

Does that sound accurate?

In any case, the reason for playing NL2 is because I play MTTs and quite frankly I suck at NL cash games. I figured if I couldn't beat NL2, I couldn't beat anything else. I of course intend on moving up.

One question for the uNL regulars: Is NL25 as bad as it looks in the I_STONG video? I watched it yesterday (hilarious BTW) and figured it as very beatable. I don't know how long ago he made that video, so is it still really that soft on "average"?

Anyhow, thanks all for your comments. Hopefully I'll be around here more in the future.

Sherman

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
Is NL25 as bad as it looks in the I_STONG video?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think iSTRONG found a really good table. 25NL is soft, but not as soft as it appears in that video.

[corsakh]

It varies from a villain to villain. Minraise is probably the most subjectvie read of them all /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I strongly suggest moving up to 10NL. Its just not poker lower.

[Iwineverypot]

As far as the hand goes, this is a very easy shove. You see draws and AQ/KQ type hands here enough to put utg all in. He has a total of 1.00, and before he minraises you the pot is already at about 80 cents with him having just about the same. There is no way you can fold an overpair on a flop for a pot sized bet, I don't care how strong you think the villian may be. At these stakes you will definetely see a worse hand often enough to make this +EV, or at least more EV than folding. As far as NL25 and istrongs videos - yes NL25 is extremely beatable, there are plenty of players trying to give their money away there.

[Mr_Pathetic]

[ QUOTE ]
one day of playing NL2, I had this read on most villains: "I'll min-raise with my monsters (and overbet shove the river with them), otherwise I just call everything."

Does that sound accurate?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely standard and NL 5 will not be much different. Occasionally you will see the opposite of this. The I shove any thing that hit villain. From my 45k hands between NL 2 and NL 5 there are two styles of beating these stakes. The 22/18/3 or 18/15/3 and the 40/30/8. So your goal should be to spot the ones who call to death and value bet lightly then find the ones that like to bet call shoves when they hit TP and stack them with overs or 2pr. Some will even bet MP and call your shove with TP.

I am pretty sure you saw QT here or TT but I am really thinking QT. Villain has to be thinking he has the best hand and I doubt he is mincheckraising top pair.

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
I am pretty sure you saw QT here or TT but I am really thinking QT. Villain has to be thinking he has the best hand and I doubt he is mincheckraising top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually didn't see showdown. I folded here. Other guy called and check/folded the river for the rest of the min-raiser's stack.

[WCGRider]

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5660/2nlqy1.jpg

thats in ptbb btw, So i think 2 NL is pretty easily beatable. Spots like this you are ahead of his range and even if he has 2 pair, then you have outs. I dont think im getting away here : (.