Complete list of CEO Poker tour Events and exact juice paid,,,

[doublejoker]

Here is the complete list of CEO Poker Tour events run so far and the amount of juice taken from each. If you participated in any of these events you may have grounds to get part of your entry fee refunded....In each case the advertised fee (for example $500 + 50, or $1,00 + 75) was not the actual amount that was charged to the player.

There is a clear pattern here of overcharging the player and misrepresentation of the buyin vs. what actually wound up in the prizepool for each event.

Taj mahal May 19

BUY-IN $500 + 50 $550

Prizepool $116,100
Entires: 258

258 x $450 = $116,100

$450 of each players $550 went into the Prizepool.

Each Player paid $450 + $100 (20% juice)

10% front end 10% more backend


May 20th 163 entires at $550

Total Prizepool $73,350

163 x $450 = $73,350

Again the players were charged $450 + $100 (20% juice)


May 21 138 entries at $550

Total Prizepool $62,100


138 x 450 = $62,100

Three tournaments where players paid $450 plus $100 juice (20%)

Next was the May 22 $1625 buyin

77 Entries

Prizepool of $105,875

This tourney was a $1375 + $250 juice. (16.67% juice)

8.33% up front
8.33% backend

May 25


Buy in $5000 + $200

Entries 45

Prizepool $155,200

Equates to 3450 +1750 juice (this one Maria claims was not really 45 players as reported)


Palms CEO Series


October 23, 2006

Buy-In $1,500 + $300
Prize Pool $40,105
Entries 31

$1293 of $1800 per player went into the prizepool.

$1293 + 507 juice (28.16%)


October 24,2006

Buy-In $1,500 + $300
Prize Pool $35,740
Entries 28

This time $1275 from each player went to the prizepool

$1275 + 525 juice (29.16%)


October 25,2006

Buy-In $1,500 + $300
Prize Pool $29,920
Entries 24

$1246 + 564 juice (31.3% juice)

October 26 2006

$5,000 buyin


21 entries

Prizepool of $117,375


Apparently $12,375 of the $43,953 taken out in juice was added to this prizepool.

The actual juice was in effect the about 72% of the numbers reported above or still well over 20% for each tournament.

Venetian CEO Series

July 2, 2007

Buy in $500 + 50

Prize Pool $155,610
Entries 342

Actual entry was $455 + $95 (19% juice) 10% up front 9% off the back end

July 3,2007

Buy-In $500 + $50
Prize Pool $159,250
Entries 350

Same $455+ 95 juice (19%)

July 4th, 2007

Buy-In $500 + $50
Prize Pool $144,235
Entries 317

same $455 + 95 (19% juice)


July 5, 2007

Buy-In $500 + $50
Prize Pool $161,525
Entries 355

Same $455+ 95 juice (19%)

July 6, 2007

Buy-In $1,000 + $75
Prize Pool $189,280
Entries 208

Actual fee: $910 + $165 (16.5% juice) 7.5% up front plus 9% backend.

July 7, 2007

Buy-In $1,000 + $75
Prize Pool $196,563
Entries 216

Same $910 + 165 (16.5%)


July 8, 2007

Buy-In $1,000 + $75
Prize Pool $158,339
Entries 174

Same $910 + 165 (16.5%)

July 9, 2007

Buy-In $2,500 + $100
Prize Pool $503,100
Entries 234

Actual buyin: $2150 plus $450 (18% juice)

4% to Venetian
6% to CEO Tour
3% to Venetian staff
5% to CEO Charity Component

[Professionalpoker]

I didn't play in any of the events but I would suggest that someone that did should summarize what has been discovered in a very business like and purely factual presentation. Send this letter to all past and future CEO event poker room managers, casino managers and the gaming commissions.

[doublejoker]

It's amazing that they got away with this for so long...

[ncpokeresq]

At the risk of getting involved in the dealer toke threads, there is a difference between juice and withholding for staff/dealer tokes. It is reasonably standard where an entry fee is shown that the toke amount comes out of the separate prize pool. The key is that the complete amount is disclosed in writing BEFORE the entry is made. If people want to pay excessive juice, as they did for the WSOP, then that is there choice.
Can you break down the other events with regard to what amounts went where as you did for the Venetian.
So there is no mistake, I would not play one of these events because that juice is absurd, but I sat out WSOP events for the same reason.

[grando]

why the hell would you quote that?

wow people are retarded

[doublejoker]

[ QUOTE ]
why the hell would you quote that?

wow people are retarded

[/ QUOTE ]

who?

[GaryTheGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
At the risk of getting involved in the dealer toke threads, there is a difference between juice and withholding for staff/dealer tokes. It is reasonably standard where an entry fee is shown that the toke amount comes out of the separate prize pool. The key is that the complete amount is disclosed in writing BEFORE the entry is made. If people want to pay excessive juice, as they did for the WSOP, then that is there choice. Can you break down the other events with regard to what amounts went where as you did for the Venetian.
So there is no mistake, I would not play one of these events because that juice is absurd, but I sat out WSOP events for the same reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto to bold

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the risk of getting involved in the dealer toke threads, there is a difference between juice and withholding for staff/dealer tokes. It is reasonably standard where an entry fee is shown that the toke amount comes out of the separate prize pool. The key is that the complete amount is disclosed in writing BEFORE the entry is made. If people want to pay excessive juice, as they did for the WSOP, then that is there choice. Can you break down the other events with regard to what amounts went where as you did for the Venetian.
So there is no mistake, I would not play one of these events because that juice is absurd, but I sat out WSOP events for the same reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto to bold

[/ QUOTE ]

you do realize that people were playing in these events because they advertised them as moderate juice, but in reality no one realized until now that the juice was false advertising/outright lying, so players were unaware of the juice.

[GaryTheGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the risk of getting involved in the dealer toke threads, there is a difference between juice and withholding for staff/dealer tokes. It is reasonably standard where an entry fee is shown that the toke amount comes out of the separate prize pool. The key is that the complete amount is disclosed in writing BEFORE the entry is made. If people want to pay excessive juice, as they did for the WSOP, then that is there choice. Can you break down the other events with regard to what amounts went where as you did for the Venetian.
So there is no mistake, I would not play one of these events because that juice is absurd, but I sat out WSOP events for the same reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto to bold

[/ QUOTE ]

you do realize that people were playing in these events because they advertised them as moderate juice, but in reality no one realized until now that the juice was false advertising/outright lying, so players were unaware of the juice.

[/ QUOTE ]


Tx,

You do realize that I think that the attitude, actions and behavior of the principals of CEO Poker Tour are reprehensible, false, deceptive, grossly negligent and/or criminal. Their partners-in-crime including, without limitation, the Taj Mahal, Palms, and Venetian casinos, as well as the PPA, knew, or should have known, of said behavior and benefited therefrom to the detriment of all poker players and the once beautiful game of poker itself. The whole lot should be pistol whipped then hung by the neck. At least they should be prosecuted as a continuing criminal enterprise under the RICO statutes.

As to Harrahs/WSOP, it's a matter of degree, not of kind. They are only as greedy and deceptive as their lawyers and the law allow them to be:

"It is reasonably standard where an entry fee is shown that the toke amount comes out of the separate prize pool." Quote from ncpokeresq post hereinabove.

Maybe CEO Poker Tour et al. should be applauded for finally "crossing the line" on how much juice is charged and how it is "fine printed". At least now the recreational players may become aware of the onerous juice being applied to today's tournaments before same becomes an "industry standard" together with "customary" tips on top of "fine printed" tips.

However, I expect CEO's actions will only serve to make us appreciate the [censored] that Harrahs/WSOP and other "honest" operators are giving the players and the game.

"...Because those pros are shills for them to get the bigger tips from the tourists.
But in return for not griping about those smaller tips, they think they should expect in return that the pros don't go out of their way to influence the tourists to tip less. Even if deep down they realize they don't "deserve" those tips. Personally I would be willing to abide by that agreement if..." Excerpt from Sklansky post here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post11308759 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=WSOP&Number=11308759&Sear chpage=1&Main=11270721&Words=&topic=&Search=true#P ost11308759)

Albeit David, with his Brandi mentorin', internet poker cheatin', black hooker payin', statutory rapin' ethics, is willing to abide by shill agreements with the dealers (and the house), I am not willing to shill for the house (and dealers) any longer. I know that I may be forgoing short-term positive ev since the tourists' weak play may currently exceed the absurd juice.

Tx, away from the same poker table, we are partners with a common unbeatable foe known collectively as the house which just lurks in the background, periodically taking chips off each player's stack. If we allow the house's greed to kill the golden goose, we all lose.

Thanks Tx,

GB

[xxx]

There is some irony that this took so long to come to light, considering that the entry was restricted to CEO's (who are presumably the MOST CAPABLE people to understand a balance sheet and money flow).

[ncpokeresq]

The difference is that the WSOP juice and toke was clear upfront, which is why I played deep stack events at the V, not WSOP events. The CEO juice was not only excessive but unclear. That is a huge difference.
The problem with the tournament based poker economy is that huge amounts are taken out by the rake and tax on the reported wins so it is a very negative sum game requiring substantial infusions of new money/players.
The CEO folks tried to screw players while the screwing was good, but were so greedy they got caught.

[doublejoker]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference is that the WSOP juice and toke was clear upfront, which is why I played deep stack events at the V, not WSOP events. The CEO juice was not only excessive but unclear. That is a huge difference.
The problem with the tournament based poker economy is that huge amounts are taken out by the rake and tax on the reported wins so it is a very negative sum game requiring substantial infusions of new money/players.
The CEO folks tried to screw players while the screwing was good, but were so greedy they got caught.

[/ QUOTE ]

The main reason the juice is so high is that the backend number usually around 9 to 10%; is mostly made up of a 6% CEO Poker tour "site fee" and the standard 3-4% for the staff of the casino runnig the event. I'm not exactly sure what the player receives for this additional 6% CEO Poker tour fee. In the case of the Venetian $2500 event, this additional $150 fee went toward a custom CEO Poket Tour hat....

[doublejoker]

Awaiting response for Maria or William to dispute that they have been taking 20% or more from the prizepool in 3 separate venues.....

[BeaucoupFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Awaiting response for Maria or William to dispute that they have been taking 20% or more from the prizepool in 3 separate venues.....

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you doing this quoting thing on purpose?

[Cornell Fiji]

I just thought of something...

I once took a real estate licensing class. In the class we were told that you could be a convicted murderer and you would not have any trouble getting your real estate license but if you were ever accused of fraudulent practices that odds are your ability to sell real estate would be revoked.

I am going to send Maria an email. The email will tell her that if she does not respond to doublejoker's concerns in the next 36 hours that I will contact the real estate board in florida asking that they reevaluate her ability to hold a license.

Maria, I do not want to impact your means for having an income. I do however desire that you address our concerns <u>as you promised that you would</u> in the statement that you posted last week. I am more than willing to make your ability to run your other businesses as difficult as legally possible if you do not address our concerns. If you do not respond to this thread in the next 36 hours I will contact Keller Williams in Miami and I will contact the licensing board.

I will ask other posters to do the same.

Maria, I hope that this message encourages you to address our concerns.

Steve

-------------------------


I just sent Maria the following email message. I will prepare my emails to Keller Williams and the real estate commission and I will post those letters here tomorrow before they are sent off.
[ QUOTE ]

Maria,
I am very disapointed that you have not addressed the concerns about your tournament structures. In your last statement posted on the twoplustwo website you promised that you would be forthcoming about your structures and that you would answer concerns in order to help gain the trust of the community.

After that post you have disappeared from our message boards. I have sent you a PM on twoplustwo and I have sent you an email since that time and both were ignored.

I am running out of ways to contact you and I am running out of patience as I await your responses. If you do not respond to the concerns posted in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...c=#Post11344904 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=11344904&amp;page=0&amp;vc=#Post 11344904)

In the next 36 hours I will contact Keller Williams relators in Miami and I will contact the Miami real estate license agency about what appears to be fraudulent practices on your part. I will also encourage other posters to contact those agencies about your alleged fraudulent practices. I hope that these parties do not have to be contacted and that we will hear from you soon.

All the best,
Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

[doublejoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I just thought of something...

I once took a real estate licensing class. In the class we were told that you could be a convicted murderer and you would not have any trouble getting your real estate license but if you were ever accused of fraudulent practices that odds are your ability to sell real estate would be revoked.

I am going to send Maria an email. The email will tell her that if she does not respond to doublejoker's concerns in the next 36 hours that I will contact the real estate board in florida asking that they reevaluate her ability to hold a license.

Maria, I do not want to impact your means for having an income. I do however desire that you address our concerns <u>as you promised that you would</u> in the statement that you posted last week. I am more than willing to make your ability to run your other businesses as difficult as legally possible if you do not address our concerns. If you do not respond to this thread in the next 36 hours I will contact Keller Williams in Miami and I will contact the licensing board.

I will ask other posters to do the same.

Maria, I hope that this message encourages you to address our concerns.

Steve

-------------------------


I just sent Maria the following email message. I will prepare my emails to Keller Williams and the real estate commission and I will post those letters here tomorrow before they are sent off.
[ QUOTE ]

Maria,
I am very disapointed that you have not addressed the concerns about your tournament structures. In your last statement posted on the twoplustwo website you promised that you would be forthcoming about your structures and that you would answer concerns in order to help gain the trust of the community.

After that post you have disappeared from our message boards. I have sent you a PM on twoplustwo and I have sent you an email since that time and both were ignored.

I am running out of ways to contact you and I am running out of patience as I await your responses. If you do not respond to the concerns posted in this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...c=#Post11344904 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=11344904&amp;page=0&amp;vc=#Post 11344904)

In the next 36 hours I will contact Keller Williams relators in Miami and I will contact the Miami real estate license agency about what appears to be fraudulent practices on your part. I will also encourage other posters to contact those agencies about your alleged fraudulent practices. I hope that these parties do not have to be contacted and that we will hear from you soon.

All the best,
Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Steve, hopefully this will elicit a response; Maria asked me to post which tournamets she charged excessive juice on, I posted the data and now she has conveniently disappeared from this forum except as 2 or 3 aliases who support her.

[GaryTheGoat]

Hey doublejoker,

I've been playing with some numbers that I cut and pasted from your post. I guess that I don't know how to figure juice. Will you or a math guy look at these and tell me if my numbers are good...bad...(I know they're ugly, I guess they came from CEO pt lol). Tell me where I'm going wrong.
I've tried to highlight where we differ on the three examples below.

Thanks,

GB


Taj mahal May 19, 2006

BUY-IN $500 + 50 $550
Prizepool $116,100
Entires: 258

258 x $450 = $116,100

$450 of each players $550 went into the Prizepool.

Each Player paid $450 + $100 ( 20 % juice)

My calculations:
Actual: $100/$450= 22.2 % juice
Advertised: $ 50/$500=10.0% juice
Variance: 12.2%




Palms CEO Series October 25,2006

Buy-In $1,500 + $300
Prize Pool $29,920
Entries 24

$1246 + 564 juice ( 31.3 % juice)

My calculations:
Actual: $564/$1246= 45.3 % juice
Advertised: $300/$1500=20.0% juice
Variance: 25.3%





Venetian CEO Series July 9, 2007

Buy-In $2,500 + $100
Prize Pool $503,100
Entries 234

Actual buyin: $2150 plus $450 ( 18 % juice)

My calculations:
Actual: $450/$2150= 20.9 %
Advertised: $100/$2500= 4.0%
Variance: 16.9%

[doublejoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey doublejoker,

I've been playing with some numbers that I cut and pasted from your post. I guess that I don't know how to figure juice. Will you or a math guy look at these and tell me if my numbers are good...bad...(I know they're ugly, I guess they came from CEO pt lol). Tell me where I'm going wrong.
I've tried to highlight where we differ on the three examples below.

Thanks,

GB


Taj mahal May 19, 2006

BUY-IN $500 + 50 $550
Prizepool $116,100
Entires: 258

258 x $450 = $116,100

$450 of each players $550 went into the Prizepool.

Each Player paid $450 + $100 ( 20 % juice)

My calculations:
Actual: $100/$450= 22.2 % juice
Advertised: $ 50/$500=10.0% juice
Variance: 12.2%




Palms CEO Series October 25,2006

Buy-In $1,500 + $300
Prize Pool $29,920
Entries 24

$1246 + 564 juice ( 31.3 % juice)

My calculations:
Actual: $564/$1246= 45.3 % juice
Advertised: $300/$1500=20.0% juice
Variance: 25.3%





Venetian CEO Series July 9, 2007

Buy-In $2,500 + $100
Prize Pool $503,100
Entries 234

Actual buyin: $2150 plus $450 ( 18 % juice)

My calculations:
Actual: $450/$2150= 20.9 %
Advertised: $100/$2500= 4.0%
Variance: 16.9%

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends how you do the calculation in th $450 + 100 example the CEO Charged 10% up front ($50) then took an additional $50 off the backend (another 10%) for a total of 20%; if you take the amount charged in relation to the final prize pool then the percentage is even higher as you have shown.....Either way you do it hundreds of players were over charged

[GaryTheGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't play in any of the events but I would suggest that someone that did should summarize what has been discovered in a very business like and purely factual presentation. Send this letter to all past and future CEO event poker room managers, casino managers and the gaming commissions.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm...this sounds like a good idea at first blush. Especially since the PPA apparently will act too slowly, if at all, to prevent CEO PT from preying on innocent poker players in the near future.

However, how sure are we that what has been discovered are pure facts? I think that the truth is an absolute defense in a libel/slander lawsuit, but I, for one, am not sure what the truth is. I am more confused about everything than sure about anything. Maria would probably be good at clouding the issues at any trial.

Additionally, I think that there is a cause of action called something like "tortious interference with a business" enterprise/contract/agreement. So even truthful assertions to CEO's partners/associates/employers/players may subject a person with standing who publishes these "truthful facts" to some civil/criminal liability in some jurisdictions.

Maybe somebody like ncpokeresq(esquire?) can give us some free advice worth the price. lol

Hopefully the poker community will become aware of what slimeballs Maria and Co. are and hurt them in their pocket books by not entering any CEO PT events notwithstanding any perceived positive ev in playing in same.

Maybe someone without standing, civilly judgment proof and criminally fearless (ie homeless) can summarize and distribute these "facts" to the world. lol

GB

[doublejoker]

It's hard to dispute the exact facts posted at the top of this thread. There is a consistent pattern of overcharging and misrepresentaion.

[GaryTheGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to dispute the exact facts posted at the top of this thread. There is a consistent pattern of overcharging and misrepresentaion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah DJ,

Did those numbers come from their website? Do you have a link thereto?

tia

GB

[doublejoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to dispute the exact facts posted at the top of this thread. There is a consistent pattern of overcharging and misrepresentaion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah DJ,

Did those numbers come from their website? Do you have a link thereto?

tia

GB

[/ QUOTE ]

Numbers were verified from 2 pokersites CardPlayer and PokerPages. Also the consistency in rake for a given level tourney ie $500 buyin is clear evidence that the numbers are correct.....

[doublejoker]

PRESS RELEASE:

The prestigious CEO POKER Cup will be held today, July 9th, at the Venetian Resort-Hotel-Casino, in Las Vegas, starting at 5:00pm, $2,500 buy-in.

(PRWEB) July 9, 2007 -- The prestigious CEO POKER Cup will be held today, July 9th, at the Venetian Resort-Hotel-Casino, in Las Vegas, starting at 5:00pm, $2,500 buy-in. Tickets go on sale the day of the event after 2:00pm on tournament day.

The CEO POKER CUP structure will give players, $15,000 in chips, with 60 minute rounds. Players will have the opportunity to win the CEO POKER TOUR cup, 14K gold bracelet, and cash.

With $15,000 in starting chips, and 60 minute, players have the opportunity to play real poker. We wanted to give more to our players through our structure.
"We wanted to give more back to poker players," says William Peraza, CEO of CEO POKER. "With $15,000 in starting chips, and 60 minute, players have the opportunity to play real poker. We wanted to give more to our players through our structure."

CEO POKER Tour is all about giving back, and every player receives their choice of a complimentary CEO POKER TOUR flex hat or a CEO POKER TOUR t-shirt. To date, CEO POKER tournaments have been welcoming an average of 300 players per tournament, from included from all over the world, New Zealand, Africa, UK, US, Japan, Australia, among many other countries.

To guarantee your spot for the CEO POKER TOUR event please purchase your seat at the Venetian Resort-Hotel-Casino tournament desk the day of the event after 2:00pm.



Hard to tell from this press release that you were actually going to pay 2150 + 450.... What is the CEO Tour all about "giving back"????

July 9, 2007

Buy-In $2,500 + $100

Monies collected : $608,400
Prize Pool $503,100
Money taken out: $105,300
Entries 234

Actual buyin: $2150 plus $450 (18% juice)

4% to Venetian
6% to CEO Tour
3% to Venetian staff
5% to CEO Charity Component