PPT Fraud- *Paging Greg Raymer*

[RioGossiper]

While everyone is on the CEO Poker Tour for fraud and misrepresentation, there is a bigger issue here to bring up.

The PPT Season II that has not gone off, and that the WPT never intends to offer. They promised $500k freerolls to top WPT finishers and European players.

However, they are not intending to continue the PPT even though they advertised this as an enticement to play their regular WPT events.

If anyone has any relevant info about the PPT please post here.

If you're around FossilMan please PM me, and I will tell you who I am. Also, if anyone knows the law firm representing the players who previously sued the WPT here: http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/7/several-players-file-lawsuit-wpt.htm

Anyone who knows anything feel free to PM me.

[MrFizzbin]

PPT season II didn't go off because they couldn't find sponsors for the events to pay the prize money (surely you don't think cheap Steve is paying THAT bill) WPT also couldn't find a TV home for the product, Travel channel only played season 1 because of severe legal issues, (Travel channel passed on it, but when ESPN showed interest Travel channel blocked it)

Basically I doubt you have a legal leg to stand on, so don't quit your day job in anticipation of a payday.

[RioGossiper]

Are you an attorney? Didn't think so.

The case is there, it's a winner...that's not the issue.

I would much rather have the tournaments be run than collect a settlement.

The issue here is of poker players being sh-t on. This isn't a laughing matter for those of us who rely on the game.

[ QUOTE ]
PPT season II didn't go off because they couldn't find sponsors for the events to pay the prize money (surely you don't think cheap Steve is paying THAT bill) WPT also couldn't find a TV home for the product, Travel channel only played season 1 because of severe legal issues, (Travel channel passed on it, but when ESPN showed interest Travel channel blocked it)

Basically I doubt you have a legal leg to stand on, so don't quit your day job in anticipation of a payday.

[/ QUOTE ]

[doublejoker]

[ QUOTE ]
While everyone is on the CEO Poker Tour for fraud and misrepresentation, there is a bigger issue here to bring up.

The PPT Season II that has not gone off, and that the WPT never intends to offer. They promised $500k freerolls to top WPT finishers and European players.

However, they are not intending to continue the PPT even though they advertised this as an enticement to play their regular WPT events.

If anyone has any relevant info about the PPT please post here.

If you're around FossilMan please PM me, and I will tell you who I am. Also, if anyone knows the law firm representing the players who previously sued the WPT here: http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/7/several-players-file-lawsuit-wpt.htm

Anyone who knows anything feel free to PM me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct; they did in fact advertise that to get into the PPT you would need to play a certain number of WPT main events or make a certain number of WPT main event final tables or cash in the top x % of the WPT money list for that calendar year. I know of several players who played in WPT 10k events solely to qualify fot the PPT.

Qualified players were sent a letter guaranteeing them 5 tournaments with a prizepool of 500k each. Several people had purchased airline tickets to participate in the first event of the cancelled eason at Foxwoods; only to find out later that the event which was shown on the Foxwoods schedule had been cancelled.

[RioGossiper]

And worse, some of us bought plane tickets from Europe.

[MrFizzbin]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you an attorney? Didn't think so.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not an aeronautical engineer either but I can safely say a penguin or an ostrich won't fly.

The case is a loser because you can't sue for what you MIGHT have won IF you had a CHANCE to play the PPT event.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you an attorney? Didn't think so.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not an aeronautical engineer either but I can safely say a penguin or an ostrich won't fly.

The case is a loser because you can't sue for what you MIGHT have won IF you had a CHANCE to play the PPT event.

[/ QUOTE ]

you most certainly can sue for this. Promising someone a prize for an action and not giving them the prize when they complete the action is grounds for a civil suit.

[ibluffoldladies]

Sure he has a case. Why wouldn't this be false advertising? Unless there was fine print that voided the promotion if the PPT ceased to exist, why wouldn't there be a case? I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holliday Inn express last night.

[ncpokeresq]

you most certainly can sue for this. Promising someone a prize for an action and not giving them the prize when they complete the action is grounds for a civil suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

There would be a potential lawsuit for breach of contract because the players provided the consideration (playing the WPT events) and now the WPT needs to comply with their obligation. Probably best to pursue as either a class or mass action as any one player would have limited value in the event.
That said, check the terms of the offer to contract from WPT (fine print). Unless the lawyers for the WPT were asleep, they have until eternity to provide the event, and what they promised was an entry so long as the event was actually held. Likely would be more limitations, but those two basic ones would cover them.
Yes, I am a lawyer, but represent neither the WPT nor the estranged players.

[RioGossiper]

Ding, we have a winner. This is the correct answer. Whilst proving damages in an american as an individual, it would be very difficult to prove compensatory damages for expected wins, even if you're the worlds best player ever. Punitive damages are of course possibe, however a class action results in the most recovery as a whole.

What needs to happen next is an organization of such a lawsuit. That's what I'm trying to do now. It is difficult to convince some sponsored players to rock the boat after seeing the reaction to the last WPT lawsuit, but this is different.

What this really needs is the support of the PPA as well. But I fear the WPT is a major donor.

[ QUOTE ]

There would be a potential lawsuit for breach of contract because the players provided the consideration (playing the WPT events) and now the WPT needs to comply with their obligation. Probably best to pursue as either a class or mass action as any one player would have limited value in the event.
That said, check the terms of the offer to contract from WPT (fine print). Unless the lawyers for the WPT were asleep, they have until eternity to provide the event, and what they promised was an entry so long as the event was actually held. Likely would be more limitations, but those two basic ones would cover them.
Yes, I am a lawyer, but represent neither the WPT nor the estranged players.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Willy]

The case is a loser because you can't sue for what you MIGHT have won IF you had a CHANCE to play the PPT event.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can sue for the value of the entry in the PPT events.But,you must show your entry in the other WPT events was, at least in part, motivated by their promise of an entry to the PPT.

[MrFizzbin]

Membership in the PPT is by invitation to qualified members. No invite no tourney entry no fraud. So unless you have a letter showing that you were a qualified PPT Member inviting/recruiting you and that the ONLY REASON you went to the event was to play BOTH then you can get travel expensesand thats it ! Since its by invitation, they can retract the invitation. Your damages are at best your travel costs. Congrats on your victory...

[RioGossiper]

As I said this is true to a degree, but they promised 2.5 million to all who qualified. That's why it is easier to solve as a class.

There is case law supporting equity lost, i.e. 1/180th of prize pool.

This is not including punitive damages possibilities for perpetrating this fraud.


[ QUOTE ]

The case is a loser because you can't sue for what you MIGHT have won IF you had a CHANCE to play the PPT event.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can sue for the value of the entry in the PPT events.But,you must show your entry in the other WPT events was, at least in part, motivated by their promise of an entry to the PPT.

[/ QUOTE ]

[RioGossiper]

You clearly don't understand what you are talking about here.

Membership is guaranteed by qualification. Qualification was used as an eticement to play the WPT events.


I frankly am shocked to see the responses here so negative after all the outrage at the CEO Poker Tour.

The WPT promised 2.5 million and television exposure as a reason to play WPT events. They didn't give out the 2.5 million. This is no different than raking more than was advertised.



[ QUOTE ]

Membership in the PPT is by invitation to qualified members. No invite no tourney entry no fraud. So unless you have a letter showing that you were a qualified PPT Member inviting/recruiting you and that the ONLY REASON you went to the event was to play BOTH then you can get travel expensesand thats it ! Since its by invitation, they can retract the invitation. Your damages are at best your travel costs. Congrats on your victory...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ncpokeresq]

Rio,
Can you post what the terms actually were? Without having what is writing, not what was understood, or said by some guy, except perhaps an officer of the WPT in front of multiple witnesses, then it is impossible to evaluate the case.
Again, the offer from the WPT which would have been accepted by playing the event would be the key as to an evaluation of the legal rights.

[Bdidd]

The legal principle is called "detrimental reliance."

If you relied on a representation made by the WPT (such as booking flights, other expenses incurred) you would have a claim for those expenses.

As I understand the facts as presented to this point, you have no claim to any part of the potential prize pool if these tournaments dont go off.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I frankly am shocked to see the responses here so negative after all the outrage at the CEO Poker Tour.

The WPT promised 2.5 million and television exposure as a reason to play WPT events. They didn't give out the 2.5 million. This is no different than raking more than was advertised.





[/ QUOTE ]

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you are shocked. And, no, this is not the same as raking more than was advertised. Its, like, um....a completely different set of facts.

The CEO Poker tournament was basically fradulent behavior, with cover-up and deceit following after.

I don't see any attempted fraud or deceit on the part of the PPT. It looks like the business oportunity there didn't work out and they couldn't put together the events they were trying to put together.

That's not to say your claim is no good, or that you aren't deserving of compensation. I'll leave that analysis to others because I simply don't know and don't have an opinion. But there's simply nothing there worthy of outrage.

[TMTTR]

[ QUOTE ]

As I understand the facts as presented to this point, you have no claim to any part of the potential prize pool if these tournaments dont go off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never played in the WPT or PPT (or WSOP for that matter) but I do play a lawyer in real life. A player (or players) would not be seeking a portion of the potential prize pool in a suit against the WPT, they would be seeking the value of the entry into the PPT events that they were promised as part of their compensation for participation in WPT events. Now, if we are talking 200 entries into a $500,000 prize pool tournament, the value is easy to estimate ($2500 per player and $12,500 for all five stops on the tour).

The case would hinge, at least in part, on what the WPT told players leading up to the various WPT events, whether potential entries into the PPT was used as an enticement to get more players to play in the WPT events, and what information was givent to players about PPT events at the time they registered for WPT events... without more facts, you can not say the case is limited to simply "detrimental reliance" damages -- but it might be.

[Bdidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As I understand the facts as presented to this point, you have no claim to any part of the potential prize pool if these tournaments dont go off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never played in the WPT or PPT (or WSOP for that matter) but I do play a lawyer in real life. A player (or players) would not be seeking a portion of the potential prize pool in a suit against the WPT, they would be seeking the value of the entry into the PPT events that they were promised as part of their compensation for participation in WPT events. Now, if we are talking 200 entries into a $500,000 prize pool tournament, the value is easy to estimate ($2500 per player and $12,500 for all five stops on the tour).

The case would hinge, at least in part, on what the WPT told players leading up to the various WPT events, whether potential entries into the PPT was used as an enticement to get more players to play in the WPT events, and what information was givent to players about PPT events at the time they registered for WPT events... without more facts, you can not say the case is limited to simply "detrimental reliance" damages -- but it might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too play a lawyer in real life. Granted, I specialize in one particular area of the law on the administrative law side of things. Certainly won't hold myself out as the utmost authority on contracts.

I agree with your assessment. There was some rumblings in the thread earlier regarding damages and the prize pools of the promised tournament(s). I was addressing those issues.

[MrFizzbin]

[ QUOTE ]


I have never played in the WPT or PPT (or WSOP for that matter) but I do play a lawyer in real life. A player (or players) would not be seeking a portion of the potential prize pool in a suit against the WPT, they would be seeking the value of the entry into the PPT events that they were promised as part of their compensation for participation in WPT events. without more facts, you can not say the case is limited to simply "detrimental reliance" damages -- but it might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all PPT membership is INVITATION ONLY according to the telecasts. The qualifications are:

1) Selected by a players committee
2) WON a WSOP or WPT event
3) Be top 10 in the US or America
4) Poker Hall of fame Members
5) Poker Walk of Fame Members

So OP which one of these fits you, and which card did you get 1,2 or 3 year card ?

They do say that paricipation in WPT events is required to maintain PPT status once achieved.

Second of all the original PPT played in like 2005/04, you've been considering a suit for like 2/3 years?

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't see any attempted fraud or deceit on the part of the PPT. It looks like the business oportunity there didn't work out and they couldn't put together the events they were trying to put together.

[/ QUOTE ]


This logic looks reasonable to me.

Some new basketball league wants to start up...and then doesn't make it. Can the would-be players sue?

What about the women's professional soccer league that lasted a couple years in the U.S. I think?
Some player gets out of their contract with a team in Europe to come over and play in the U.S.
then the league folds. She's screwed and says she never would have cut ties with her old team if she had known that the U.S. league was going to fold.

Ummm, that's life. They didn't know they were going to fold and certainly didn't want to.

Every player who entered all those WPT events had just as much of an opportunity to cash IN THOSE EVENTS as anyone else.
I'm just not sure they should be able to sue the PPT just because it didn't succeed (and therefore didn't live up to its promise of a supposedly big-time tour for those qualified).

[RioGossiper]

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. I'm inclined to believe it's the other way around.

Whatever the compensatory/punitive damages may be is secondary to whether they violated the law. Which they did.

My purpose here is to begin to organize something more than 'shame on WPT' for what they have done.
[ QUOTE ]
The legal principle is called "detrimental reliance."

If you relied on a representation made by the WPT (such as booking flights, other expenses incurred) you would have a claim for those expenses.

As I understand the facts as presented to this point, you have no claim to any part of the potential prize pool if these tournaments dont go off.

[/ QUOTE ]

[RioGossiper]

Thank you for some more reasonable sense.

I'm not looking to bankrupt the WPT, I'm looking to force them to their obligations. From my phone calls and contact close to the WPT it appears they have no intent of offering these event.

This is where the PPA should be involved.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As I understand the facts as presented to this point, you have no claim to any part of the potential prize pool if these tournaments dont go off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never played in the WPT or PPT (or WSOP for that matter) but I do play a lawyer in real life. A player (or players) would not be seeking a portion of the potential prize pool in a suit against the WPT, they would be seeking the value of the entry into the PPT events that they were promised as part of their compensation for participation in WPT events. Now, if we are talking 200 entries into a $500,000 prize pool tournament, the value is easy to estimate ($2500 per player and $12,500 for all five stops on the tour).

The case would hinge, at least in part, on what the WPT told players leading up to the various WPT events, whether potential entries into the PPT was used as an enticement to get more players to play in the WPT events, and what information was givent to players about PPT events at the time they registered for WPT events... without more facts, you can not say the case is limited to simply "detrimental reliance" damages -- but it might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[RioGossiper]

1 year card for the 2006-2007 season. I was not qualified before so I never played the PPT before this.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I have never played in the WPT or PPT (or WSOP for that matter) but I do play a lawyer in real life. A player (or players) would not be seeking a portion of the potential prize pool in a suit against the WPT, they would be seeking the value of the entry into the PPT events that they were promised as part of their compensation for participation in WPT events. without more facts, you can not say the case is limited to simply "detrimental reliance" damages -- but it might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all PPT membership is INVITATION ONLY according to the telecasts. The qualifications are:

1) Selected by a players committee
2) WON a WSOP or WPT event
3) Be top 10 in the US or America
4) Poker Hall of fame Members
5) Poker Walk of Fame Members

So OP which one of these fits you, and which card did you get 1,2 or 3 year card ?

They do say that paricipation in WPT events is required to maintain PPT status once achieved.

Second of all the original PPT played in like 2005/04, you've been considering a suit for like 2/3 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

[RioGossiper]

Might be a while before I get back to you on this one...but yes I think there is precedent for this. folding a developmental league where developmental players are guaranteed something. I don't see how it is relevant to this case though.

It is simple..The WPT PROMISED 2.5 million in freerolls as an enticement to play their events. The WPT is NOT broke. It's impossible to get blood from a turnip, but this isn't the CEO Poker Tour. The WPT has continuing operations.

What this case is more akin to is a car dealer who advertises a $1 car to bring in business, except nobody gets the $1 car.



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't see any attempted fraud or deceit on the part of the PPT. It looks like the business oportunity there didn't work out and they couldn't put together the events they were trying to put together.

[/ QUOTE ]


This logic looks reasonable to me.

Some new basketball league wants to start up...and then doesn't make it. Can the would-be players sue?

What about the women's professional soccer league that lasted a couple years in the U.S. I think?
Some player gets out of their contract with a team in Europe to come over and play in the U.S.
then the league folds. She's screwed and says she never would have cut ties with her old team if she had known that the U.S. league was going to fold.

Ummm, that's life. They didn't know they were going to fold and certainly didn't want to.

Every player who entered all those WPT events had just as much of an opportunity to cash IN THOSE EVENTS as anyone else.
I'm just not sure they should be able to sue the PPT just because it didn't succeed (and therefore didn't live up to its promise of a supposedly big-time tour for those qualified).

[/ QUOTE ]

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]

What this case is more akin to is a car dealer who advertises a $1 car to bring in business, except nobody gets the $1 car.


[/ QUOTE ]

to me its more:

BUY OUR CAR AND YOU WILL GET A 2ND CAR FOR FREE.

2 months later...

"meh, we;re not giving you the free car".

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't see any attempted fraud or deceit on the part of the PPT. It looks like the business oportunity there didn't work out and they couldn't put together the events they were trying to put together.

[/ QUOTE ]


This logic looks reasonable to me.

Some new basketball league wants to start up...and then doesn't make it. Can the would-be players sue?

What about the women's professional soccer league that lasted a couple years in the U.S. I think?
Some player gets out of their contract with a team in Europe to come over and play in the U.S.
then the league folds. She's screwed and says she never would have cut ties with her old team if she had known that the U.S. league was going to fold.

Ummm, that's life. They didn't know they were going to fold and certainly didn't want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it is quite possible that the players in your hypotheticals could have sued the defunct league, but why bother? The entity against which they had a claim was bankrupt, so there was no money to be had. Since the WPT still has money, that aspect doesn't apply, and the case might be worth pursuing. The only issue is how likely is the victory, how much will it win, and how much will it cost to try. The question of collecting if you win doesn't appear to be a problem.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[doublejoker]

The maximum value for anyone who "qualified" but did not get to participate in the PPT would be about $12,500. Each tourney was worth about 500k divided by 200 players....

[Bdidd]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I'd agree with this. I'm inclined to believe it's the other way around.

Whatever the compensatory/punitive damages may be is secondary to whether they violated the law. Which they did.

My purpose here is to begin to organize something more than 'shame on WPT' for what they have done.
[ QUOTE ]
The legal principle is called "detrimental reliance."

If you relied on a representation made by the WPT (such as booking flights, other expenses incurred) you would have a claim for those expenses.

As I understand the facts as presented to this point, you have no claim to any part of the potential prize pool if these tournaments dont go off.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. You can prove a "violation of law" all you want, if you can't prove some element of damages, you get a verdict in your favor and you get nothing.

Edit- And I'm not saying you could not prove some element of damages (booked plane tix etc) but you cant claim as damages any part of any potential prize pool IMO).

[GaryTheGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't see any attempted fraud or deceit on the part of the PPT. It looks like the business oportunity there didn't work out and they couldn't put together the events they were trying to put together.

[/ QUOTE ]


This logic looks reasonable to me.

Some new basketball league wants to start up...and then doesn't make it. Can the would-be players sue?

What about the women's professional soccer league that lasted a couple years in the U.S. I think?
Some player gets out of their contract with a team in Europe to come over and play in the U.S.
then the league folds. She's screwed and says she never would have cut ties with her old team if she had known that the U.S. league was going to fold.

Ummm, that's life. They didn't know they were going to fold and certainly didn't want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it is quite possible that the players in your hypotheticals could have sued the defunct league, but why bother? The entity against which they had a claim was bankrupt, so there was no money to be had. Since the WPT still has money, that aspect doesn't apply, and the case might be worth pursuing. The only issue is how likely is the victory, how much will it win, and how much will it cost to try. The question of collecting if you win doesn't appear to be a problem.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Bolded portion sounds eerily like ev calculations on a hand at the poker table.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't see any attempted fraud or deceit on the part of the PPT. It looks like the business oportunity there didn't work out and they couldn't put together the events they were trying to put together.

[/ QUOTE ]


This logic looks reasonable to me.

Some new basketball league wants to start up...and then doesn't make it. Can the would-be players sue?

What about the women's professional soccer league that lasted a couple years in the U.S. I think?
Some player gets out of their contract with a team in Europe to come over and play in the U.S.
then the league folds. She's screwed and says she never would have cut ties with her old team if she had known that the U.S. league was going to fold.

Ummm, that's life. They didn't know they were going to fold and certainly didn't want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it is quite possible that the players in your hypotheticals could have sued the defunct league, but why bother? The entity against which they had a claim was bankrupt, so there was no money to be had. Since the WPT still has money, that aspect doesn't apply, and the case might be worth pursuing. The only issue is how likely is the victory, how much will it win, and how much will it cost to try. The question of collecting if you win doesn't appear to be a problem.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg, I agree with this. My point, to which Microbob added his hypothetical, was that I don't see any grounds for the sort of outrage that the CEO Poker Tour spawned.

[RioGossiper]

I love people who think they are lawyers. You remind me of the guys arrested by the feds on serious felonies and giving them statements right away.

Obviously if they violated the law there are a class of people affected and there will be damages.

My work here is nearing completetion. Thank you to the people who have given me valuable information. To the many sore losers who insist on being negative about anything, well enjoy your minimum mandatory in your mothers basement.

There is definitely much quiet yet unenthusiastic support for this lawsuit from many of more famous people affected. Nobody seems to think the WPT is doing them any favors, but most seem to feel they wil self destruct on their own.

It really is tough to worry about a maximum settlement of ~$15k when you are making a lot of money. I will be in contact with a few law firms this week pondering my options. It is not normal for this type of case to be taken on a contigency basis, so we'll see where this goes and who feels like helping pay for it. Getting busted by lawyers isn't in my bankroll's plans.

I personally harbor no ill will towards the WPT, I am just interested in being done right. I'm not chasing something -EV just to prove a point with my ego no matter how angry I may be.





[ QUOTE ]


Wrong. You can prove a "violation of law" all you want, if you can't prove some element of damages, you get a verdict in your favor and you get nothing.

Edit- And I'm not saying you could not prove some element of damages (booked plane tix etc) but you cant claim as damages any part of any potential prize pool IMO).

[/ QUOTE ]

[RioGossiper]

You don't see outrage possibly because you weren't affected and havn't had to deal with the WPT.

It really would not surprise me if Maria Gomez was an associate of the WPT. There's very little difference in the two cases to me. One is just on a bigger scale, but with less simple people affected.

I have heard of a similar juice and charity scandal involving the WPT. I think they just might be smarter in quieting a bad situation, because I don't know any more than rumours.

I do however know a lot more about pumping and dumping WPT stock =]


[ QUOTE ]

Greg, I agree with this. My point, to which Microbob added his hypothetical, was that I don't see any grounds for the sort of outrage that the CEO Poker Tour spawned.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bdidd]

[ QUOTE ]
I love people who think they are lawyers. You remind me of the guys arrested by the feds on serious felonies and giving them statements right away.

Obviously if they violated the law there are a class of people affected and there will be damages.

My work here is nearing completetion. Thank you to the people who have given me valuable information. To the many sore losers who insist on being negative about anything, well enjoy your minimum mandatory in your mothers basement.

There is definitely much quiet yet unenthusiastic support for this lawsuit from many of more famous people affected. Nobody seems to think the WPT is doing them any favors, but most seem to feel they wil self destruct on their own.

It really is tough to worry about a maximum settlement of ~$15k when you are making a lot of money. I will be in contact with a few law firms this week pondering my options. It is not normal for this type of case to be taken on a contigency basis, so we'll see where this goes and who feels like helping pay for it. Getting busted by lawyers isn't in my bankroll's plans.

I personally harbor no ill will towards the WPT, I am just interested in being done right. I'm not chasing something -EV just to prove a point with my ego no matter how angry I may be.





[ QUOTE ]


Wrong. You can prove a "violation of law" all you want, if you can't prove some element of damages, you get a verdict in your favor and you get nothing.

Edit- And I'm not saying you could not prove some element of damages (booked plane tix etc) but you cant claim as damages any part of any potential prize pool IMO).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget about your lawsuit and work on your reading comprehension. There were three of us who responded in this thread (including Greg) ARE attorneys.

Play poker instead of trying to shoot an angle on the WPT.

[PokeReader]

The elements of fraud, which give rise to the tort action for deceit, are (a) misrepresentation (false representation, concealment, or nondisclosure); (b) knowledge of falsity (or 'scienter'); (c) intent to defraud, i.e., to induce reliance; (d) justifiable reliance; and (e) resulting damage.

You would only be able to recover punitive damages in this type of contract suit if the contract had been entered into under misrepresentation for the purposes of fraud; you would then sue also under tort for deceit. The circumstances as described in the WPT case are at best a negligent fraud case, which then allow awarding of damages of expection value, or generally the recovering of the financial circumstances of the party from which he might have expected to have without the contract. This is not the same as reliant interest, which only applies in cases with tortious breaches. I also think that the case as described would have an excellent chance of being litigated an innocent fraud, and often in those cases of breach of contract there are no damages due whatsoever. As of yet, I have heard no evidence of intent to enter into a fraudlent contract, and you will need evidence that the WPT was certain that the representations that they made to you were false, for you to be able to have a chance to make this lawsuit economically viable. I was absolutely pushing the issue with the CEO Tour, but that was intentional fraud and this is at best negligent misrepresentation, which are a long way apart. I am also sure the WPT had legal disclaimers about the possibility of cancellation of any WPT event, and the WPT not having any responsility in that case for players' travel expenses. I am sorry you lost money on tickets, but I think suing would just cost you more.

[grdred944]

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My work here is nearing completetion. Thank you to the people who have given me valuable information. To the many sore losers who insist on being negative about anything, well enjoy your minimum mandatory in your mothers basement.

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Wow, you really have issues. Don't post a message claiming fraud on a public board if you don't want to receive negative comments -- particularly since you started out with one.

I am not a lawyer but mentioned this to a top tier gaming lawyer who happens to be a poker playing friend. I didn't say that some nudnick on the Internet is whining about the PPT. I just tried to get an opinion on this.

His response was a little complex for a non legal mind like mine but I will paraphrase for you:

The lawyers will be the only ones to make money.

DUCY?

[Bdidd]

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My work here is nearing completetion. Thank you to the people who have given me valuable information. To the many sore losers who insist on being negative about anything, well enjoy your minimum mandatory in your mothers basement.

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Wow, you really have issues. Don't post a message claiming fraud on a public board if you don't want to receive negative comments -- particularly since you started out with one.

I am not a lawyer but mentioned this to a top tier gaming lawyer who happens to be a poker playing friend. I didn't say that some nudnick on the Internet is whining about the PPT. I just tried to get an opinion on this.

His response was a little complex for a non legal mind like mine but I will paraphrase for you:

The lawyers will be the only ones to make money.

DUCY?

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Too negative. I'm sure this will get pooped on by OP.

[RioGossiper]

Hi WPTE!

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I love people who think they are lawyers. You remind me of the guys arrested by the feds on serious felonies and giving them statements right away.

Obviously if they violated the law there are a class of people affected and there will be damages.

My work here is nearing completetion. Thank you to the people who have given me valuable information. To the many sore losers who insist on being negative about anything, well enjoy your minimum mandatory in your mothers basement.

There is definitely much quiet yet unenthusiastic support for this lawsuit from many of more famous people affected. Nobody seems to think the WPT is doing them any favors, but most seem to feel they wil self destruct on their own.

It really is tough to worry about a maximum settlement of ~$15k when you are making a lot of money. I will be in contact with a few law firms this week pondering my options. It is not normal for this type of case to be taken on a contigency basis, so we'll see where this goes and who feels like helping pay for it. Getting busted by lawyers isn't in my bankroll's plans.

I personally harbor no ill will towards the WPT, I am just interested in being done right. I'm not chasing something -EV just to prove a point with my ego no matter how angry I may be.





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Wrong. You can prove a "violation of law" all you want, if you can't prove some element of damages, you get a verdict in your favor and you get nothing.

Edit- And I'm not saying you could not prove some element of damages (booked plane tix etc) but you cant claim as damages any part of any potential prize pool IMO).

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Forget about your lawsuit and work on your reading comprehension. There were three of us who responded in this thread (including Greg) ARE attorneys.

Play poker instead of trying to shoot an angle on the WPT.

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[RioGossiper]

Nope, no negative response here! Agree 100%. I certainly appreciate the thoughtful constructive advice, and honest opinions from (actual) attorneys.

I understand the trolls that lurk on a public forum. Most people in the world aren't that smart. On a forum such as 2+2 with many brilliant people, the not-so-smart people can tend to feel inferior. I call it MBS(Mothers basement syndrome)


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My work here is nearing completetion. Thank you to the people who have given me valuable information. To the many sore losers who insist on being negative about anything, well enjoy your minimum mandatory in your mothers basement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you really have issues. Don't post a message claiming fraud on a public board if you don't want to receive negative comments -- particularly since you started out with one.

I am not a lawyer but mentioned this to a top tier gaming lawyer who happens to be a poker playing friend. I didn't say that some nudnick on the Internet is whining about the PPT. I just tried to get an opinion on this.

His response was a little complex for a non legal mind like mine but I will paraphrase for you:

The lawyers will be the only ones to make money.

DUCY?

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[Bdidd]

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Nope, no negative response here! Agree 100%. I certainly appreciate the thoughtful constructive advice, and honest opinions from (actual) attorneys.

I understand the trolls that lurk on a public forum. Most people in the world aren't that smart. On a forum such as 2+2 with many brilliant people, the not-so-smart people can tend to feel inferior. I call it MBS(Mothers basement syndrome)


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[ QUOTE ]
My work here is nearing completetion. Thank you to the people who have given me valuable information. To the many sore losers who insist on being negative about anything, well enjoy your minimum mandatory in your mothers basement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you really have issues. Don't post a message claiming fraud on a public board if you don't want to receive negative comments -- particularly since you started out with one.

I am not a lawyer but mentioned this to a top tier gaming lawyer who happens to be a poker playing friend. I didn't say that some nudnick on the Internet is whining about the PPT. I just tried to get an opinion on this.

His response was a little complex for a non legal mind like mine but I will paraphrase for you:

The lawyers will be the only ones to make money.

DUCY?

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Bottom line bud, don't ask for advice if you can't handle what you are going to hear. Please flame the attorneys you speak with in person about these issues when you hear the exact same answer you have heard here. Sorry if you dont agree with the opinions you have been given. Perhaps a little more maturity on your end would help.

And please let us know when you go busto from spending money chasing this angle through the legal system.

[RioGossiper]

You are correct I believe in your analysis. The semantics will vary based on venue.

However as to the disclaimer, and WPT covering their own ass....I would not say this is the case. Certainly based on my dealings it is not. The decision not to run these tournaments was willful and calculated when they couldn't find a sponsor.

I think the WPT made a bluff with the PPT they regret, and they feel the risk of a lawsuit is cheaper than holding their honor.

I believe this case doesn't get far if pressed. It gets to discovery and then game over, WPT folds in a settlement.
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I am also sure the WPT had legal disclaimers about the possibility of cancellation of any WPT event, and the WPT not having any responsility in that case for players' travel expenses. I am sorry you lost money on tickets, but I think suing would just cost you more.

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[RioGossiper]

This sounds a lot like a min buy going on about how I will go broke after I scoop them.

lol, min buy. Scoopissimo.

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And please let us know when you go busto from spending money chasing this angle through the legal system.

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[Bdidd]

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You are correct I believe in your analysis. The semantics will vary based on venue.

However as to the disclaimer, and WPT covering their own ass....I would not say this is the case. Certainly based on my dealings it is not. The decision not to run these tournaments was willful and calculated when they couldn't find a sponsor.

I think the WPT made a bluff with the PPT they regret, and they feel the risk of a lawsuit is cheaper than holding their honor.

I believe this case doesn't get far if pressed. It gets to discovery and then game over, WPT folds in a settlement.
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I am also sure the WPT had legal disclaimers about the possibility of cancellation of any WPT event, and the WPT not having any responsility in that case for players' travel expenses. I am sorry you lost money on tickets, but I think suing would just cost you more.

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Ok Greta Van Susterin.

Prop bet perhaps as to how this all ends?

[Butcho22]

PEOPLE WHO WRITE ABOVE TEH QUOTES TILT ME SO [censored] HARD AND I DON'T KNOW WHY CUZ IT SHOULDN'T MATTER TO ME!

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This sounds a lot like a min buy going on about how I will go broke after I scoop them.

lol, min buy. Scoopissimo.

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And please let us know when you go busto from spending money chasing this angle through the legal system.

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[tuq]

LOL, that's two things we agree on in 24 hours. WTF. How can RioGossiper not notice that NOBODY TOP-POSTS IN THESE FORUMS. HELLO?!?!?

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PEOPLE WHO WRITE ABOVE TEH QUOTES TILT ME SO [censored] HARD AND I DON'T KNOW WHY CUZ IT SHOULDN'T MATTER TO ME!

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This sounds a lot like a min buy going on about how I will go broke after I scoop them.

lol, min buy. Scoopissimo.

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And please let us know when you go busto from spending money chasing this angle through the legal system.

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