The Final Table SUCKED Thread

[EverettKings]

I watched most of the final table, and decided that it was totally lame. So I thought we'd start a thread and compile reasons why it sucked.

My top three:

3) The horrible aversion to playing postflop poker, especially heads-up. The guys played a couple tiny pots on flops, but there was way to much overbetting preflop and stuff. Nothing cool happened after the board came down. Nothing.

2) HORRRIBLE poker played all around. Raymond Rayme somehow got to the final table in a 5000 player field, then checkraises all in with KK in a reraised pot on an A high board laying 3:1. That's the kind of [censored] I saw at $25 Party Poker tables back in the day. "OMG I HAVE KK I RERAISE PREFLOP OMG ACE ON FLOP I CANT FOLD KK THREE HANDED IM ALL IN OH NO HE HAS AN ACE WHAT AN AWFUL BEAT" Jesus christ.

1) TWO HUNDRED [censored] HANDS IN SIXTEEN [censored] HOURS. That's 12 hands an hour. TWELVE. Live poker is 3x that fast at a normal table, online tables are like 5-8x as fast. Granted its a WSOP final table yadda yadda but there is NO excuse for the absurd degree of Hollywooding for the most mundane decisions. It does not take sixty full seconds for Jerry Yang to make his preflop action, even if its a fold. Tuan Lam does not need to take two minutes to fold to Jerry's fiftieth preflop raise in a row. It's stupid.

/rant

Your turn.

[Dranoel]

4) I was not at the table.

[technologic]

[ QUOTE ]
4) I was not at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

that would be 0) for me

[vixticator]

I watched all 15+ hours or w/e, lol, having not been to sleep the day before and didn't fall asleep. I liked it for the most part. The first 5ish hours were exciting, lots of jaming and calling with... uh... strange hands. Four handed was a lot better but most hands were Jerry raises and wins or Jerry 3-bets and wins PF. I don't think he got hit by the deck, just a stone maniac. A bit upset that Tuan and Rahme didn't see more flops, even OOP. But it was worth the like $1.10 an hour. Definitely want to see more hands per hour though.

[RonMexico]

I think all OP's points are solid, especially #1. Regarding point #2, I believe that if you mask the stake/tournament and just show a hand replay on a computer, you'd be hard-pressed to distinguish this from a $30 online MTT.

[Phanekim]

imho very very bad. this was nothing compared to last year.

[nhtool]

It's funny how they altered the structure to allow for more play and no one took advantage of it. People routinely folded to reraises preflop with position and plenty of chips to play with. Whenever there was any sort of money in preflop, people were way too aggressive on the flop. It was terrible, scared poker, and I'm glad Yang won because he was the only one at the table with any balls (even though his praying for cards thing was disgusting and way out of line).

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
It was terrible, scared poker, and I'm glad Yang won because he was the only one at the table with any balls

[/ QUOTE ]


I couldn't agree more.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]

2) HORRRIBLE poker played all around. Raymond Rayme somehow got to the final table in a 5000 player field, then checkraises all in with KK in a reraised pot on an A high board laying 3:1. That's the kind of [censored] I saw at $25 Party Poker tables back in the day. "OMG I HAVE KK I RERAISE PREFLOP OMG ACE ON FLOP I CANT FOLD KK THREE HANDED IM ALL IN OH NO HE HAS AN ACE WHAT AN AWFUL BEAT" Jesus christ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course if he had gotten bluffed off his KK everyone would be saying "OMG how could he fold after having committed so many chips? Can't he see Yang is bluffing again?"

[Kevroc]

I winced when Rahme started chirping.. the minute he gabbed, I knew Yang was calling.

I was watching it on TiVo this morning (without knowing who won) and called out A2, A3 or A4 for Yang.

[twoblacknines]

"TWO HUNDRED [censored] HANDS IN SIXTEEN [censored] HOURS. That's 12 hands an hour."

Does anyone know what last years stats were for hands? Just wondering if this is standard, cus yea 12 hands an hour is [censored] ridiculous

[Arnold_O]

i thought it was great especially since i didn't have to watch that goofy looking jewish guy beat up on everyone. watching some schmuck with 80's wire rim glasses manipulate people all night long was horrible.

hated hearing that stupid name over and over again.... jamie gold. herbie schlotstien would have been much better. or carl rosenthal or...

[TexRef]

I thought that Lee, Childs, and the old guy all played right into Yang's game instead of playing their own. Yang was being the uber-aggressive player at the table and instead of staying out of his way until they trapped him they made plays with A7, KJ, and KK with an ace on the flop.

Watkinson's resteal wasn't horrible, but Yang had already shown that he wasn't folding many hands and A7 isn't a great hand to show down.

Childs call was great after the cards were turned up -- but in reality, against Yang's range there he could have been in a coinflip or behind. I thought he could have waited for a better spot, but was tired of being run over and was still thinking about his QQ laydown.

The KK hand was clearly awful. Yang had been checking flops when he completely missed if his opponent checked to him. He is only betting there with an ace and is NEVER folding. I think, like the others, the old man got tired of being pushed around and wanted to push back.

[JeffreyN]

30$ MTT can be difficult

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Watkinson's resteal wasn't horrible, but Yang had already shown that he wasn't folding many hands and A7 isn't a great hand to show down.

[/ QUOTE ]

What had Yang showed down before this? My recollection is AK in the hand against Hilm. He'd been playing a lot of hands, but had he been tested like this preflop?

[llleisure]

I watched most of it and at first I thought it sucked but then it sort of fascinated me. I mean Yang ran that table at his own (slow) pace and I think it drove the other players up the wall. That was just so unexpected and especially from the weak/bad/short stacked little asian dude. There were several times when another player woud look at Yang and try to pick up something and just look away frustrated. Little dude was a friggin statue for 16 hours.

How they will chop this up for good, edited ESPN TV I have no clue. That will be hard.

It did suck that out of 8 other players, not one could come up with some way to play back at Yang and at least try to take him off his game. Pray to Satan when you win a hand, or something cripes - make the guy blink.

Lam was a trooper, had he won that last hand they might still be playing.

[UATrewqaz]

This was the least entertaining final table for awhile and I agree with all your points.

The number of hands per hour is ridiculous. There was too much BS going on in the room. They'd take 20 minute breaks every freaking 2 hours or some crap. Every time a player busts, another break, every time the blinds go up, another break, god...

[gumpzilla]

For people saying it was the least entertaining final table for a while: how many final tables have you watched live without hole cards? It was definitely too slow, but given that my main experience watching live tournaments is with HEAVILY edited footage on TV, it's not clear that it's that far out of the ordinary. Was this even longer than the Hachem final table, and if so, by how much?

[GotQuads]

It wasn't boring, just bad poker. Last year was better.

[groo]

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't boring, just bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the first FT I've watched live and it was much more exciting than I expected. I expected a 30 hand an hour fold-a-thon, and while the poker was bad and excrutiatingly slow, Jerry Yang's play (though bad) did keep it very intertesting. I kept wondering when someone would play back at him and his stack would shrivel up and die. It almost happened, it started to happen, but patience didn't win out. It seems Jerry not only had the largest set of balls, but also the most luck. Congrats Jerry!

[rafiki]

I've been playing poker for a while, but I know this. if I got to a final table with pros, I would do my absolute best to avoid seeing flops. That said the pros here should have adjusted accordingly.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing poker for a while, but I know this. if I got to a final table with pros, I would do my absolute best to avoid seeing flops. That said the pros here should have adjusted accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, Yang was using the perfect TPFAP strategy for someone who was the least experienced at the table. In most cases, that's the player who tends to play just the opposite. Props to him, he earned his win.

[gsolis]

If my memory from the broadcast serves me, Hachem's final table was 11ish hrs and Jimmy Gold's 14hrs+, a record until this year.

overall, i agree while Jerry's play was unconventional the pros did not adjust accordingly.

I particularly did not like Lee Childs who raises from the SB weith KJo with a shortstack instead of just pushing Yang off the J8 that ended his tournament.

[shmergle]

Especially when they're pointless and unfunny

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
For people saying it was the least entertaining final table for a while: how many final tables have you watched live without hole cards? It was definitely too slow, but given that my main experience watching live tournaments is with HEAVILY edited footage on TV, it's not clear that it's that far out of the ordinary. Was this even longer than the Hachem final table, and if so, by how much?

[/ QUOTE ]

I watched last year and LOVED it. Watching Allen Cunningham play in real time against Jamie was great, and both of them acted fairly quickly with little to no Hollywooding. It was wonderful to watch.

This year was just unbearable. I kept checking in just to see what happened, and every 20 minutes I'd check the live updates and review the hands that had been played to see a total of like three hands that looked like this:
1 - Jerry yang raises and takes the blinds and antes
2 - Jerry yang raises and Tuan Lam calls from the blinds. The flop is Q85 with two diamonds. Tuan checks, Jerry bets and Tuam folds.
3 - Everyone folds to Jerry yang in the big blind
Which all somehow required 20 minutes for a total of four non-fold actions.

[Lampsteen]

Why didn't they all have racing suits on so they could have had more advertising on them. I was watching 9 guys whore themselves out.
Plus, what is with all the black being worn at the final tables??? I also noticed it on the first week of ESPN's 2007 WSOP broadcast. That is really lame too.

Yes, the table was boooorrrrriiiiinnnnngggg! Could Yang move any slower?? Unlike a lot of you, I'm a Christian and I really do believe you check God at the door when you sit down at the felt. But, who knows. All I know is that he was really creeping me out.

[FireStorm]

1) Too slow. Borderline decisions being overthought, and players like Yang and Kravchenko who play extremely slowly anyway, make for hands which take forever. Not good TV, and leads to bad decisions later on from players who are tired/bored/restless.

2) Yang is never folding A5 against Rahme regardless of what he says. Rahme is eliminated as soon as he CR shoves AI. He could have led at the flop and shut down, and ended the hand with 20 million in chips, still deep enough to make a dent.

3) The poor play of people deepstacked in the first 30-40 hands isn't something you expect to see. Watkinsons move is unnecessary as is his idiotic explanation that he didn't want to blind out. Hilm should not busto 9th when starting almost 100 BB's deep unless he gets megacooled TWICE. Calling it off with KJo is unacceptable, you aren't even ahead of sgarbage hands which Yang is overplaying. The fact that he had a worse J is a Godsend.

4) Disagree that no one played back at Yang. Kravechenko managed to get it in 4 times against him, all either good or racing.

5) ESPN will be saved by the fact they they actually have a lot of hands to choose from to show. Eight bustouts, three Kravchenko doubles thru Yang, Rahme doubling thru Yang, Tuan Lam doubling with Ah5h and 4d3d, the hand where Childs mucked QQ faceup, etc etc. Shouldn't be too difficult to fill two episodes once you factor in some incidental bluffs/aggression hands.

[NotFadeAway]

I really enjoyed this year's final table, as I thought it was extremely exciting and great fun to watch how they were playing (or, in the case of everyone except for Yang, not playing.) I didn't see last year's FT though, so I don't have anything to compare it to, but I did have a lot of fun watching it.

[EGO]

I think in a month when the FT airs on ESPN we will all be very happy with the new influx of maniacs at the table.

Granted, I didn't think anyone other than Raymond (who made the worst play of the FT) really took advantage of Yang's inability to play post-flop. I'd have tried to see many, many flops against this guy. Nobody took a stand.

Are you counting all the breaks in your hand calculations. There was some time for dinner, and 15-20 minutes every two hours or so. Probably three of those hours nobody was at the table at all, if not more. Still pretty slow.

The slow deliberateness of the play, combined with the weak-tight play overall by Yang's competitors suggests that many of these players were simply trying to move up the money ladder. At least after the first guy was eliminated.

I think Yang's win was good for us, though. I agree with the OP's sentiments. With such deep stacks, I really hoped to see more poker played. Yang simply ran the table over, and nobody had enough cajones to play the high-variance, but correct, way against him. Call his raises, take flops, value-bet, value-bet, value-bet.