"Jesus" advises Yang to stiff dealers?

[Kevmath]

The latest post over at www.pokerati.com (http://www.pokerati.com) tells the story of Jerry Yang (with advice from Chris Ferguson) allegedly not tipping the dealers after his win earlier this morning.

An excerpt:

[ QUOTE ]
At that point Ferguson pointed out what that came out to — $148,500 by my calculations, but not certain that’s the number he cited — and said, according to a mostly reliable source who was in the payouts room, “So I recommend zero.”

[/ QUOTE ]

[DesertCat]

Raymer has talked about this. You should not tip a percentage of a big win, you should come up with a reasonable per hour tip rate for the dealers. Ferguson has apparently done the math and determined that $148,500 works out well, so why leave any more?

[Ramon Scott]

Lam went around giving extra tokes. He is also a former dealer.

[fnurt]

Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[Butcho22]

^^ well said ^^

[DesertCat]

I'm guessing that there were about 10,000 dealer hours at the Main Event. 1.8% was taken from a $60M prize pool, which works out to $960,000. 30% went to management, leaving $612,000 for dealers. So dealers got tipped around $60 per hour?

That can't be right. What's wrong with my math?

[phiphika1453]

probably the dealer hours, how did you get that number?

[THAY3R]

Probably undershot the dealer hours a bit. There was around 10k dealer hours for Day 1 alone I'd think.

[phiphika1453]

that article said they were guaranteed $25 per down. Without any extra tips that is still good money. 12-14 downs a day seems like a fair estimate. 14*25= $350/day.

Um, they make plenty.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
probably the dealer hours, how did you get that number?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just guessing. I used an average of 100 tables per Day 1 (assuming they started at 150 and ended at 50), and 14 hours per day. 100 x 14 x 4 days = 5600 hours. If that's correct it's pretty hard to even get to 10,000 hours when you are already down to 1600 players by the day 2s. I think I must be off by a factor of two or three somewhere...

[FUJItheFISH]

more players than just the winner should be tipping and adding to this total right?

[Jooka]

[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]


well said.

[zerocarb]

[ QUOTE ]
^^ well said ^^

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

[AngusThermopyle]

Compare:
1. They already took out
2. I assume they do not tell you the number of dealer hours so you can figure out roughly what an additional tip translates into.
3. I know they won't tell you how much the dealer's are making before an additional tip.

with

1. They don't take out from my ring game.
2. I know how much my translates into and to whom it is going when I tip in a ring game.
3. I know roughly how much the dealer in a ring game makes.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
more players than just the winner should be tipping and adding to this total right?

[/ QUOTE ]

All players paid 1.8% out of their entry fee to pay the dealers with. Not sure how many who made the money tipped on top of that. But I'll bet that the TD and other staff pressured every single one of them:) So yes, the real number should be closer to $1M I'd guess (depending on how much mgmt raked for their own pockets).

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing that there were about 10,000 dealer hours at the Main Event. 1.8% was taken from a $60M prize pool, which works out to $960,000. 30% went to management, leaving $612,000 for dealers. So dealers got tipped around $60 per hour?

That can't be right. What's wrong with my math?

[/ QUOTE ]

the prize pool is actually ~62M /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[itsoverjonny]

The 1.8% is deducted from the GROSS prize pool, which is the full $10,000 per player X 6,358 players.

1.8% for dealer and staff = $1,144,440

[mrjetguy]

Good thing I don't play tournaments. I would figure out roughly how many hands I played and tip that many dollars total. I would not tip random people $200,000 just because I became a millionaire. I would much rather buy a family member a house or something.

[Moose]

Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough. I played in a MGM tourney where the dealers got $5 out of each $45 entry fee, and one dealer complained that it hardly added up to anything. When I pointed out that it was more than one of the higher placing prizes, the dealer had nothing to say to that.

If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[LonesomeFugitive]

[ QUOTE ]
Good thing I don't play tournaments. I would figure out roughly how many hands I played and tip that many dollars total. I would not tip random people $200,000 just because I became a millionaire. I would much rather buy a family member a house or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough.
...

If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe dealers at the WSOP get that great a deal. I think my math must be wrong. Management skims off 30% of their 1.8%, and doesn't treat them very well. And remember, this is a tough, part-time gig that dealers used to travel in for (do they still?). And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

But I agree it's pretty scummy if these guys were getting $60 an hour and management tried hustle even more tips out of cashing players without telling them this.

I wish someone who actually played the events and knows the real story would chime in.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
probably the dealer hours, how did you get that number?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just guessing. I used an average of 100 tables per Day 1 (assuming they started at 150 and ended at 50), and 14 hours per day. 100 x 14 x 4 days = 5600 hours. If that's correct it's pretty hard to even get to 10,000 hours when you are already down to 1600 players by the day 2s. I think I must be off by a factor of two or three somewhere...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are very close indeed, and certainly not off anywhere near a factor of 2. Let's figure:

Day 1: 1600 players/day = 178 tables * 12 hours of play * 4 days = 8544 dealer-hours. However, this is clearly too high as there were not 1600 players for all hours. By the end of the day, there were less than 60 tables. Let's conservatively say 7200 dealer-hours.

Day 2. ~1150 players/day = 128 tables * 10 hours * 2 days = 2560 dealer-hours. End of day was about 410 players each day (46 tables), let's say 2000 dealer-hours.

Day 3. 820 players = 92 tables * 12 = 1104 dealer-hours. End of day was 337 players (38 tables), let's use 800 dealer-hours.

Day 4. 337 players = 38 tables * 11 = 418 dealer-hours. End of day was 112 players (13 tables), so say 300 dealer-hours. We're pretty much in the noise at this point.

Day 5. 13 tables * 12 hours = 156 dealer-hours. Only 5 tables at the end of the day, let's use 120 dealer-hours.

Day 6. 4 tables * 18 hours = 72 dealer-hours, we'll use 50.

Day 7. 1 table * 20 hours.

Total ~ 10,500 dealer-hours. Even if all tables ran all day it would only raise the total to around 13,000 dealer-hours.

At 10k hours, and assuming that Ferguson's $150k is correct, Yang effectively tipped each and every dealer about $15/hour for every hour they worked. That's more than generous and in his shoes I doubt that I'd tip anything more.

[YoungOne]

"Jesus" advises Yang to stiff dealers?

haha, love the title of this post.

[Aleo]

Someone change the title of this thread. Or, lock it.

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

[/ QUOTE ]

insert joke about dealer tokes

[ QUOTE ]
But I agree it's pretty scummy if these guys were getting $60 an hour and management tried hustle even more tips out of cashing players without telling them this.

I wish someone who actually played the events and knows the real story would chime in.

[/ QUOTE ]

When they cash you out, they ask, "would you like to leave anything extra for the dealers?" For my part, I said "no" but distributed about 1% of my win to a few different floor people and staff who I thought were undertaking the uphill task of actually working hard to make the tournaments better.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

[Sponger.]

[ QUOTE ]
And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

[/ QUOTE ]

That sure didn't stop anyone from doing this.

[Dranoel]

[ QUOTE ]
I never tip for MTT cashes. They take out far too much as it is

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on which State you are in.

In New Jersey they can't take anything out, so it is on you to "tip out" when you cash.

Vegas is different, where I believe they do take out a percentage for the dealers & floor.

[jimbog]

Twenty years ago when I worked as a waiter, we would add whatever % on for parties of 8 or more. I would never fail to point this out to the customer when giving them the check. Failing to do so, hoping for double tipping, is tantamount to stealing as far as I'm concerned.

When I cashed out, the clerk's exact words were "would you like to leave something for the staff?" No mention was made of the fact that the staff had already added several thousand to my bill...

JG

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough.
...

If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe dealers at the WSOP get that great a deal. I think my math must be wrong. Management skims off 30% of their 1.8%, and doesn't treat them very well. And remember, this is a tough, part-time gig that dealers used to travel in for (do they still?). And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

But I agree it's pretty scummy if these guys were getting $60 an hour and management tried hustle even more tips out of cashing players without telling them this.

I wish someone who actually played the events and knows the real story would chime in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if the dealer pay structure is much different for the WPT than the WSOP, but a guy that's dealt WPT told me they make some nice coin. Somewhat better than dealing cash games for the same time period.

[Ace-Ex]

I think dealers should get a reasonable tip. 2% seems pretty fair.

One thing I can't stand (particularly at places staffed by teenagers/college kids) is these fast food places where the kid takes your order and gives your food to you on a tray, yet they have a tip jar. It's like $9 for a sandwich isn't enough, you expect another dollar or two to help pay your staff. Considering the margins at Starbucks, this tip jar thingy is unseemly. /rant

[Ckrad]

Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[jt082005]

[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty good post, and I agree

[pkrporcupine]

Hello all. Im stopping by here first to clear a few things up then i will be posting on pokerati. I am the dealer that put out the last hand. I was in the payout room with Jerry as a representative for the dealers. I do not know if chris was invited or not but that is beside the point. First I want to say that Jerry is a wonderfull, big hearted man that played a great tourney for somebody that has only been playing for 2 years. HE DID NOT STIFF US! He was misled and didnt know any better. A stiff is someone who knows all the facts and refuses to toke and wont even say thank you. Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs. As for the main this year, 1.8% was withheld for the staff, which i might add is the smallest we have been given in years. It is split 30% to the Floor staff and its supposed to be 70% for the dealers but i have heard that a chunk of that is going to the chip runners and cashiers....dont quote me on that cuz i dont know for a fact. Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers and that was too many in my opinion because they were getting very little downs per day and having forced days off. We are NOT garunteed $25 a down, Dan misunderstood me when I was explaining to him what we have been averageing this year. Now I am not good at math without chips and cards infront of me but everything that goes into the toke pool must be shared between all dealers for that 11 days and going by CF's number that he stated in the payout room to Jerry means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me.
As for what happened last night, Jerry trusted CF to give him very sound advice because he has never won anything like this before. The issue I have is when the payout clerk asked Jerry if he would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL (yes that is how it was stated) for the dealers, Jerry looked to chris and asked What he should do. CF Told him that the dealers already get 2%, he was then corrected by someone in the room with us that its 1.8%, so CF goes on to say that "It works out to be around 170K that you have already tipped them so no, I would not leave anything more." It Was very wrong of CF to state it in that manner because he was flat out misleading. I stood there smiling, waited for Jerry to finish signing his paperwork then hugged and congratulated him once more, very sincerly. Of course i was pissed, not that Jerry declined to tip but that CF was giving him great advice on everything else but was completely wrong when it came to the dealers. I couldn't say anything because that would be considered soliciting. I just wish that he would have been properly informed and if then he declined, I am perfectly fine with that. Yes we make good money for what we do and unfortunately there are some greedy ones in the bunch. Alot of you out there calling me greedy need to understand that because i choose to work the circuit for harrahs and travel with them, I have to pay all my own expenses, my own health care and we only work about 2 weeks every month. We depend on the WSOP to make up for the rest of the year to keep us all fed till January. This 45 days of hard work is atleast 2/3 of most of our incomes. Now I believe that harrahs with the huge vig every event should be the ones responsible for giving us a bigger chunk and I think that tipping is a very personal thing that should be left to every individual to decide on and not bitter players who wish to bash us "greedy sons of...". I for one dont expect anything that i have not earned but I always appreciate a thank you for a job well done and that doesnt have to be in the form of cash and last night it was in the form of a huge hug. I love my job even with the ups and downs and honestly, This years WSOP was a great time for me. So hopefully this rambling clears up a few things and starts alot more discussions on how things can be done even better next year for all involved.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
more players than just the winner should be tipping and adding to this total right?

[/ QUOTE ]

All players paid 1.8% out of their entry fee to pay the dealers with. Not sure how many who made the money tipped on top of that. But I'll bet that the TD and other staff pressured every single one of them:) So yes, the real number should be closer to $1M I'd guess (depending on how much mgmt raked for their own pockets).

[/ QUOTE ]
The winners are NEVER pressured to tip. It is a printed "Gratuity" line on the form and they are asked if they would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL. And yet again the dealers only get 70% of that 1.8. Also I may not be BFF with JE but the Floor staff makes enough without having to take from us and they dont "line" their pockets with players money

[rwesty]

I don't see how CF misled him.

[jh12547]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough.


If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job.

-----------------------------------------------
Great another thread about tipping dealers.
I am a Craps and BJ dealer and this quote is another reason why i will never deal poker. Statements from Jerkoffs like these are why. If you dont beleive in tipping then dont do it, but dont try to influence others on what to do. Its kinda the same as if you are in a hand with someone and he/she is getting advice from others on whether to call or fold. I bet you wouldnt appreciate that.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't I? I may not be the best dealer out there but I have a kick ass job that i love and why shouldn't i get paid well for a job that takes alot of skill and knowledge to be done right? Hell just having to put up with players with piss poor attitudes that blame their crappy play or poor luck on me and the cards i deal.....i should make alot more

[killsadie]

still all dealers at all times.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how CF misled him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Jerry was told wrong numbers for who gets what from where. I personally think CF had no business being there unless JY invited him, which he may have, but he could have just told him the whole truth, thats all Im saying.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not many people make 50 bucks an hr period...alot of people THINK they do but considering the corporate culture is now 24-7 and 55 hour work weeks are the norm ofr white collar slave types....combines with an expanding h1b program....

A good dealer deserves to be well paid...wealthy..no...but well compensated.

[pkrporcupine]

I dont get it

[seemorenuts]

Zero is the correct number. Ferguson and other big pros were criticized by some idiot at my 1/2 NL cash game table in Seneca Niagara for leaving only a collective $5 in tips during a cash game on some cruise boat that the idiot worked on or with. The idiot was in THEIR cash game and criticized them for not tipping much, and they asked him to leave the game.

The idiot came off as an 'arrogant know-it-all American' (and that's an insult to all you fine Americans, but I'm trying to paint a picture here). The goof continued to lecture us at the 1/2 NL table by lecturing, "if you don't tip, you can't afford to play at this table". Meanwhile, the poor beginner to my right is recently occupationally disabled and asking for advice as to how to make a living at this game from us.

Lastly, if any tipping is going on, give it to the other players who played, lol, us players have to stick together... ha ha ha... (unless service is extraordinary, and tips unpooled).

The best idea ever never gets any traction: tell all dealers that you are donating to a fund to annually award the best dealer in North America $100M for being the most proficient and effective... then set up an organization that does this. Sell buttons, organize judges, audits, etc. convince a rakefree poker site to protect and collect the money, all voluntary. Why? So the players and the dealers win. The casinos would have to cough up more money to keep them there and we'll have hedge fund managers vying for that cool $100M. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[jh12547]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't I? I may not be the best dealer out there but I have a kick ass job that i love and why shouldn't i get paid well for a job that takes alot of skill and knowledge to be done right? Hell just having to put up with players with piss poor attitudes that blame their crappy play or poor luck on me and the cards i deal .....i should make alot more

[/ QUOTE ]


Agree 100%. amazing how people forget or dont even know the BS dealers have to go through

[govman6767]

[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[seemorenuts]

That's how I tip. I treat dealers with great respect and I protect them from abuse from other players the best I can.

I've often wondered if dealers could choose, which would it be, respect with a decent wage paid by the casino, or abuse with lower pay, dependent on tips (from people you often despise)?

Denmark, Australia, New Zealand and China have had traditions where tipping was considered a bit of an insult, moreover it servers to distort the dealers' ability or propensity to treat the players impartially.

[laikeze]

I think Dealers should get tipped well by the players, especially the players who play often and consider themselves pro's or parttime pro's. The dealers rely on tips for most of their income, if we the players tip less, we will see the competency level of most dealers lower because dealing would become a less desirable profession. And you will not make the casinos pay the dealers more, In the casino's view, a poker room filled with slot machines instead of poker tables would be more of a profit to them as there are less employees to worry about. So let's tip the dealers who perform well.

[Johnny Hughes]

I knew Yang kept talking about Jesus, but I did not think he meant that Jesus.

I don't think it is Ferguson's place to speak up and cost the dealers money. I wonder what the usual tradition at Binion's was all those years??? The dealers did not like Becky and she was accused of taking from them, but I do not recall the details.

[realwtf]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I am not good at math without chips and cards infront of me but everything that goes into the toke pool must be shared between all dealers for that 11 days and going by CF's number that he stated in the payout room to Jerry means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. You discount the fact the $214 for 11 days work is only from the First Prize of $8.5 million. There is more then $50 million where 1.8% was taken out to tip the dealers.

[New2NL]

What??? You made 50$ an hour and find reason to complain????

Wow, I have a university degree and a good job and I do not make 50$ an hour for a job that is a lot harder and requires more knowledge than a poker dealer.

[olivert]

I, as a witness in the payout office, can confirm the story dealer Laurie (a.k.a. "pkrporcupine") posted.

I, having been hired as Jerry's agent for the WSOP Main Event on Monday afternoon, was the one who authorized Chris Ferguson to be present in the payout office on Wednesday morning.

Chris was acting in good faith as a former world champion who wanted to look after a fellow world champion. He was NOT acting as a representative for FullTiltPoker.net.

Oliver Tse
Oliver Tse Management Group
otmgmt@otmgmt.com

[samsdmf]

Crossed out text on articles is just lazy and bad, why do people do it

[Slow Play Ray]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris was acting in good faith as a former world champion who wanted to look after a fellow world champion. He was NOT acting as a representative for FullTiltPoker.net.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man good thing you pointed this out! *rolls eyes*

[Slow Play Ray]

[ QUOTE ]
Crossed out text on articles is just lazy and bad, why do people do it

[/ QUOTE ]

to show what has been edited since the original post.

[cocked&locked]

I don't begrudge anyone a living, but this is laughable

[ QUOTE ]
We depend on the WSOP to make up for the rest of the year to keep us all fed till January. This 45 days of hard work is atleast 2/3 of most of our incomes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, too bad most of us have to work hard ... um about 2/3 of the year to make 2/3 of our yearly income. How about another career path or a supplemental job. What make's you so special?

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello all. Im stopping by here first to clear a few things up then i will be posting on pokerati. I am the dealer that put out the last hand. I was in the payout room with Jerry as a representative for the dealers. I do not know if chris was invited or not but that is beside the point. First I want to say that Jerry is a wonderfull, big hearted man that played a great tourney for somebody that has only been playing for 2 years. HE DID NOT STIFF US! He was misled and didnt know any better. A stiff is someone who knows all the facts and refuses to toke and wont even say thank you. Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs. As for the main this year, 1.8% was withheld for the staff, which i might add is the smallest we have been given in years. It is split 30% to the Floor staff and its supposed to be 70% for the dealers but i have heard that a chunk of that is going to the chip runners and cashiers....dont quote me on that cuz i dont know for a fact. Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers and that was too many in my opinion because they were getting very little downs per day and having forced days off. We are NOT garunteed $25 a down, Dan misunderstood me when I was explaining to him what we have been averageing this year. Now I am not good at math without chips and cards infront of me but everything that goes into the toke pool must be shared between all dealers for that 11 days and going by CF's number that he stated in the payout room to Jerry means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me.
As for what happened last night, Jerry trusted CF to give him very sound advice because he has never won anything like this before. The issue I have is when the payout clerk asked Jerry if he would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL (yes that is how it was stated) for the dealers, Jerry looked to chris and asked What he should do. CF Told him that the dealers already get 2%, he was then corrected by someone in the room with us that its 1.8%, so CF goes on to say that "It works out to be around 170K that you have already tipped them so no, I would not leave anything more." It Was very wrong of CF to state it in that manner because he was flat out misleading. I stood there smiling, waited for Jerry to finish signing his paperwork then hugged and congratulated him once more, very sincerly. Of course i was pissed, not that Jerry declined to tip but that CF was giving him great advice on everything else but was completely wrong when it came to the dealers. I couldn't say anything because that would be considered soliciting. I just wish that he would have been properly informed and if then he declined, I am perfectly fine with that. Yes we make good money for what we do and unfortunately there are some greedy ones in the bunch. Alot of you out there calling me greedy need to understand that because i choose to work the circuit for harrahs and travel with them, I have to pay all my own expenses, my own health care and we only work about 2 weeks every month. We depend on the WSOP to make up for the rest of the year to keep us all fed till January. This 45 days of hard work is atleast 2/3 of most of our incomes. Now I believe that harrahs with the huge vig every event should be the ones responsible for giving us a bigger chunk and I think that tipping is a very personal thing that should be left to every individual to decide on and not bitter players who wish to bash us "greedy sons of...". I for one dont expect anything that i have not earned but I always appreciate a thank you for a job well done and that doesnt have to be in the form of cash and last night it was in the form of a huge hug. I love my job even with the ups and downs and honestly, This years WSOP was a great time for me. So hopefully this rambling clears up a few things and starts alot more discussions on how things can be done even better next year for all involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you received a total of $214 for 11 days of work? If not, please post how many hours you worked during the WSOP and how much you made. Without specific numbers, I don't see anyone's mentality on tipping changing.

[csuf_gambl0o0r]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how CF misled him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, I don't see wtf is going on. How exactly did jesus mislead him?

He said that 1.8% was already taken out, which is true. Are you guys daft?

[pkrporcupine]

Yet again we are not recieving 1.8%, over 700 dealers are sharing 65% of that 1.8%(I have been told now that the chip runners are getting 5% of our share) And atleast i can admit im no good with numbers :O)

[rsigley]

it's going to be the same thing as every year before and probably every year after this

dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

argument goes nowhere

i cashed in one event for about 58k

they asked if i wanted to tip, i said how much of the prize pool is going to the dealers for this event

sorry we can't tell you that

so i didn't end up tipping

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I, as a witness in the payout office, can confirm the story dealer Laurie (a.k.a. "pkrporcupine") posted.

I, having been hired as Jerry's agent for the WSOP Main Event on Monday afternoon, was the one who authorized Chris Ferguson to be present in the payout office on Wednesday morning.

Chris was acting in good faith as a former world champion who wanted to look after a fellow world champion. He was NOT acting as a representative for FullTiltPoker.net.

Oliver Tse
Oliver Tse Management Group
otmgmt@otmgmt.com



[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe nobody has realized the importance of this post to both this thread, and to Pacific Rim poker as a whole.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[pkrporcupine]

Never did i complain about what i make, if you had paid attention you will notice that i said i love my job and dont care if Jerry tipped. He said thank you and is very sincere and a good man, not an ass like some players. I never said i was special and i never said i made $50 an hour, i usually average that before taxes sometimes more. I earn what i do because i am good at what i do just like those of you in a regular white collar job getting paid what you are worth and are valued for what you add to your job.
And thanks for the info Oliver, now atleast we know how he got in there. And CF did give great advice to JY about how to handle the taxes, how to have the casino pay him etc.
Im not sure if its even worth mentioning in here but I think it would be a great idea and step in the right direction to have a dealer on the players advisory board to be able to set up a fair way to pay the staff so everyone bennifits

[W brad]

$60,000,000 * 1.8% * 65% = $702,000

$702,000 / 700 dealers = $1,003 per dealer

Days of work:
Days most dealers needed: 7 (1a,1b,1c,1d,2a,2b,3)
Days only a fraction of the dealers are needed: (4,5,6,FT)


It seems most dealers should be getting about $1,000 for 7 days of work.

What I don't understand is why there are 700 dealers. Even on the busiest day there were only about 200 tables. Even with many extra dealers around to provide generous breaks for those working I can't see why there would be 700 dealers needed.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[thomasdrool]

Sounds like 1k each plus wages. How many of you only had to work 4/5 of those days? Between 100 (a few of you) and 200 (most of you) a day tippage doesn't sound too shabby to me.

[realwtf]

I understand you are getting 65% of the 1.8% of the TOTAL prizepool. CF calculated what the winner paid in tips only for what he won and took home. So he only has already paid $170,000 or so. The rest of the field who cashed each have also paid an addition 1.8% of there winnings to the toal tips.

[capone0]

[ QUOTE ]
Never did i complain about what i make, if you had paid attention you will notice that i said i love my job and dont care if Jerry tipped. He said thank you and is very sincere and a good man, not an ass like some players. I never said i was special and i never said i made $50 an hour, i usually average that before taxes sometimes more. I earn what i do because i am good at what i do just like those of you in a regular white collar job getting paid what you are worth and are valued for what you add to your job.
And thanks for the info Oliver, now atleast we know how he got in there. And CF did give great advice to JY about how to handle the taxes, how to have the casino pay him etc.
Im not sure if its even worth mentioning in here but I think it would be a great idea and step in the right direction to have a dealer on the players advisory board to be able to set up a fair way to pay the staff so everyone bennifits

[/ QUOTE ]

If you usually make 50 dollars per hour before taxes you should never be complaining. This is a job a computer does even better than you do, yet you get paid to do it on a regular basis.

[Teph]

Why would you ever tip the dealer pool rather than just tip the dealers that you played with (That deserved it even)

That is like me walking around the Bellagio floor tipping mixed game dealers while I am at a NL table after I win a monster pot.

BTW: Oliver every post you make makes me laugh, poker is no longer fun for everyone, in fact, this just got seriousssss.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you ever tip the dealer pool rather than just tip the dealers that you played with (That deserved it even)



[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe because if you tip an individual tournament dealer or floor, he is required to turn it into the pool? And if he "forgets", he can lose more than your tip.

[rwesty]

[ QUOTE ]
I never said i was special and i never said i made $50 an hour, i usually average that before taxes sometimes more.

[/ QUOTE ]

No wonder they try to keep this a secret. There's no way there would be so much constant pressure to tip all the time if everyone knew this.

[McMelchior]

A WSOP dealer told me this year she was being paid $3.20 per hour by Harrah's and relied on tips for the rest. No way it should be legal to underpay qualified workers that grossly! Criticizing players for not taking responsibility and making up for Harrah's repugnant salary policies is plainly mis-leading.

When we buy in to tournaments the organizers take a large fee out of - not the prize pool - but each players buy-in. Relying on lucky individuals to make up for Harrah's disgusting under-payment of their labor is simply wrong. Every dollar giving in tip additional to what's already deducted from the buy-in is just adding to Harrah's profit, and in effect taking the money out of the poker economy.

The strongest way we tournament players can support the underpaid dealers is to refuse to tip anything in addition to what's beeing withheld.

That way Harrah's (and other tournament organizers) will be forced to pay dealers decent wages, if they want to be able to offer tournaments at all!

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never did i complain about what i make, if you had paid attention you will notice that i said i love my job and dont care if Jerry tipped. He said thank you and is very sincere and a good man, not an ass like some players. I never said i was special and i never said i made $50 an hour, i usually average that before taxes sometimes more. I earn what i do because i am good at what i do just like those of you in a regular white collar job getting paid what you are worth and are valued for what you add to your job.
And thanks for the info Oliver, now atleast we know how he got in there. And CF did give great advice to JY about how to handle the taxes, how to have the casino pay him etc.
Im not sure if its even worth mentioning in here but I think it would be a great idea and step in the right direction to have a dealer on the players advisory board to be able to set up a fair way to pay the staff so everyone bennifits

[/ QUOTE ]

If you usually make 50 dollars per hour before taxes you should never be complaining. This is a job a computer does even better than you do, yet you get paid to do it on a regular basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch.

[realwtf]

[ QUOTE ]
A WSOP dealer told me this year she was being paid $3.20 per hour by Harrah's and relied on tips for the rest. No way it should be legal to underpay qualified workers that grossly! Criticizing players for not taking responsibility and making up for Harrah's repugnant salary policies is plainly mis-leading.

When we buy in to tournaments the organizers take a large fee out of - not the prize pool - but each players buy-in. Relying on lucky individuals to make up for Harrah's disgusting under-payment of their labor is simply wrong. Every dollar giving in tip additional to what's already deducted from the buy-in is just adding to Harrah's profit, and in effect taking the money out of the poker economy.

The strongest way we tournament players can support the underpaid dealers is to refuse to tip anything in addition to what's beeing withheld.

That way Harrah's (and other tournament organizers) will be forced to pay dealers decent wages, if they want to be able to offer tournaments at all!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dealers are lying to players about how much they make an hour too? I thought they were making $6.41 not half that or $3.20.

If dealer lied to me about how much they made to get more tips I would definatly not give any extra.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[jogsxyz]

Does the tip appear on the W-2 form? Or does the player need
to claim the tip on the schedule A? If the tip isn't shown
on the W-2, I wouldn't tip either.

[Uglyowl]

Why does it matter how much they get paid (whether they are overpaid or underpaid)? Do you ask a hairdresser or waiter what their wage is before you leave a tip?

Also for their suffering and charity work, I nominate the WSOP dealers for the Arthur Ashe Humanitarian ESPY award.

How much they make is Harrah's issue. If you feel like the dealers did a good job, give them money if you want. This whole tipping thing has gotten out of control in America (it shouldn't be standard to tip anyone, it should be a personal decision).

If $50/hour is the going rate for dealers so be it, market forces will set what the “fair rate”. I don’t know what it is, but it works it’s way out.

From what I see, the dealers do a great job at the WSOP.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
A WSOP dealer told me this year she was being paid $3.20 per hour by Harrah's and relied on tips for the rest. No way it should be legal to underpay qualified workers that grossly! Criticizing players for not taking responsibility and making up for Harrah's repugnant salary policies is plainly mis-leading.

When we buy in to tournaments the organizers take a large fee out of - not the prize pool - but each players buy-in. Relying on lucky individuals to make up for Harrah's disgusting under-payment of their labor is simply wrong. Every dollar giving in tip additional to what's already deducted from the buy-in is just adding to Harrah's profit, and in effect taking the money out of the poker economy.

The strongest way we tournament players can support the underpaid dealers is to refuse to tip anything in addition to what's beeing withheld.

That way Harrah's (and other tournament organizers) will be forced to pay dealers decent wages, if they want to be able to offer tournaments at all!

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY my point. The players pay enough in fee's and like I said originally, it should be Harrahs responsibility to give the staff and dealers a bigger chunk of the vig. I dont think it would harm them one bit to give up an additional 1.2% to make it a total of 3% withheld for the staff then do the 70/30 split. Any problems with that?
And, a computer can take over almost anyones job, but I have a much better personality and I look alot better in a low cut blouse than your PC

[DrewDevil]

Pics please, obv.

[W brad]

Yang should give any extra tip he wants to give as an additional donation to his charities (Make-A-Wish Foundation, Feed the Children and the Ronald McDonald House Charities) on behalf of the dealers.

CEOPoker taught me this little secret-extra-charity-on-behalf-of-others tip. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[PoineDexter]

This may sound odd but didn't every player that entered effectively tip 1.8% ($180.00) before the event got underway win or lose? The prize won by Yang represented the monies left after the operating costs had been removed. Yang effectively contributed $180.00 just like everyone else.

Depends on how you look at it I guess.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people are venting a lot of complaints they have about dealers in general. I wouldn't take it personally.

I thought the things you said about Jerry Yang were very classy btw. He does seem like a good person.

[Uglyowl]

It is pretty cool you took the time to come on here to clear a few things up also.

I echo, don't take things personally.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
This may sound odd but didn't every player that entered effectively tip 1.8% ($180.00) before the event got underway win or lose? The prize won by Yang represented the monies left after the operating costs had been removed. Yang effectively contributed $180.00 just like everyone else.

Depends on how you look at it I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's BS this money would have been in the prize pool if it wasn't taken out. Since some players didn't tip from their winnings in the past the system was changed to the current method. It's not the players fault if the Casino hired too many dealers or took too little (not in my opinion) from the prize pool. Maybe they should go back to the old way of letting players decide if/how much the dealers deserve.

[AngusThermopyle]

700 dealers?
How many of them spent the past week dealing side games, gaining tokes while the ME was going on?
How many dealt the 15 non-bracelet events that ran July 9th to 16th, gaining tips while the ME was going on?
So to say the ME tokes were spread out over 700 dealers more that a bit misleading.

Simple.
Publish an "average" dealers take for the WSOP.
Then we can see if the dealers were "stiffed".

Until then, quit bashing CF for educating Yang as to the realities of the money taken out up front.

[PoineDexter]

That's what I'm saying. Yang didn't win all those peoples tip money and then have it deducted out of his winnings. It had already been removed prior to play.

[TexRef]

[ QUOTE ]
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're new here, aren't you?

[IQof47]

Anyone who sits inside and does nothing but shuffle cards and pass them out to others should not bitch about $15/hr,much less $50/hr. You count on the WSOP to generate 2/3 of your income? Tough, that makes you an idiot who needs to learn what he/she is worth, and quit expecting a windfall from someone elses' success, literally any able bodied person with an IQ above 60 can deal a poker game. Some people in this world have went as far as getting a 2nd or 3rd job to take care of financial problems. You talk about how pissed you were in initial post when CF misled Tommy Vu about the tip, even though it doesn't appear he did mislead him, it is obvious you are mad because you wanted a little piece (undeservedly). Next time you are sad and need to feel better go to a site where a building is going up, its 110 outside, there are 2 guys at top of said structure, 60 feet in air,30MPH wind blowin, they are on a deadline,and they are making less than you. Go sit on your ass and shuffle up and deal, it is a pretty easy job.

Note- I realize having a bad dealer can ruin a table, but that is on Harrah's, it is SO easy to deal.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
700 dealers?
How many of them spent the past week dealing side games, gaining tokes while the ME was going on?
How many dealt the 15 non-bracelet events that ran July 9th to 16th, gaining tips while the ME was going on?
So to say the ME tokes were spread out over 700 dealers more that a bit misleading.

Simple.
Publish an "average" dealers take for the WSOP.
Then we can see if the dealers were "stiffed".

Until then, quit bashing CF for educating Yang as to the realities of the money taken out up front.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was wrong, plain and simple. AS for the dealers, 700+ for all 3 shifts, dealers are paid by down this year so when they are sent to the live section, they are not getting part of the pool, only if you pitch a card on a tourney table. ALL tourneys held from the 6th to the end are all pooled into the same fund. And I will continue to speak the truth about CF just like I have been all along.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who sits inside and does nothing but shuffle cards and pass them out to others should not bitch about $15/hr,much less $50/hr. You count on the WSOP to generate 2/3 of your income? Tough, that makes you an idiot who needs to learn what he/she is worth, and quit expecting a windfall from someone elses' success, literally any able bodied person with an IQ above 60 can deal a poker game. Some people in this world have went as far as getting a 2nd or 3rd job to take care of financial problems. You talk about how pissed you were in initial post when CF misled Tommy Vu about the tip, even though it doesn't appear he did mislead him, it is obvious you are mad because you wanted a little piece (undeservedly). Next time you are sad and need to feel better go to a site where a building is going up, its 110 outside, there are 2 guys at top of said structure, 60 feet in air,30MPH wind blowin, they are on a deadline,and they are making less than you. Go sit on your ass and shuffle up and deal, it is a pretty easy job.

Note- I realize having a bad dealer can ruin a table, but that is on Harrah's, it is SO easy to deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

yet another who cannot read or understand english. Where exactly was Tommy Vu?? If you could read you would have noticed that I am perfectly happy with what I made this year and INCREDDIBLY HAPPY that JERRY Y won the ME. As for my skills, I would love to see you be able to do what I do AND do it well enough to be televised. Im sorry that you are not skilled nor educated enough to work smarter. I will make sure and wave to you next time I drive past the construction on Frank Sinatra Blvd

[TexRef]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who sits inside and does nothing but shuffle cards and pass them out to others should not bitch about $15/hr,much less $50/hr.

Note- I realize having a bad dealer can ruin a table, but that is on Harrah's, it is SO easy to deal.

[/ QUOTE ]
I might agree for a $1/2 or $2/5 game, but what about when the stakes start getting really high? What about for $50/$100 or $500/$1000 games? To say that you are going to pay someone $15/hour to run a game where tens of thousands, possibly millions are at stake seems a little short-sighted to me.

Same thing with the WSOP final table. The money for the final nine was over $22M total, with 9th place getting $500K and first over $8M. I would think that you would want to place the most experienced dealers at the tables as the tournament is winding down and they should be rewarded for their efforts. Why would you want to deal the final table of the WSOP for $15/hour? There's not much upside there -- if you screw up you are going to face tons of criticism and if you do everything perfectly it will just be what you are supposed to do and you'll take your mediocre pay and go home.

I'd like to see the dealers that deal the tables towards the end of the tournament make more than those dealing on the first days. Make it competitive so that the best dealers are dealing the final tables (which I assume happens already anyway) and reward them for their success.

[capone0]

I'm pretty sure in most casinos, unless the dealers don't want to, that dealers deal every type of game from the 1/2 game to the 4k/8k atleast at the Venetian. They are doing the exact same thing at each game. Yes the moneys bigger but it's still poker and it's still chips. The rake is about the same for every type of game.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
This may sound odd but didn't every player that entered effectively tip 1.8% ($180.00) before the event got underway win or lose? The prize won by Yang represented the monies left after the operating costs had been removed. Yang effectively contributed $180.00 just like everyone else.

Depends on how you look at it I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could look at it that way. Or you could look at it as money out of the prize pool, so that effectively only people that cashed paid a tip.

In other words, if you bust out twenty minutes into the main event, it doesn't matter whether they witheld 2% or 20%, you still end up with nothing. It would make no difference to you. To the winner however, it would make a great deal of difference in how much he's paid.

So, in my mind the tip is only actually paid by the players that cash (and perhaps the bubbles, as well, if the payout would have been deeper with no witholding for the tip).

[Zetack]

I'm interested from a gossip perspective, in how much the big winners tip, if any. I'm not particularly interested in the ZOMG, Harrah's should pay the dealers better not us, debate.

Personally, I would've tipped an extra 80K for the win, and nothing for one of the just in the money, 20k cashes. Make of that what you will.

--Zetack

[pkrporcupine]

well with an event this size, unfortunately there are alot of break-in dealers that have no clue how to properly deal a simple 1/2 NL cash game let alone an event with millions at stake. In the past, the best of the best dealers are chosen by ESPN and the DC (dealer coordinater), and we got paid the same as everyone else. I was happy just to be able to be on tv for my kids to watch. This year we have finally been given a little extra by earning extra downs. All of the staff has worked very hard this year to try our best to give the players a great event.

[Johnny Hughes]

A tip here would be tax deductible or would lower the taxable winnings by the amount of the tip, I'd guess. If you give the deserving dealers one per cent, half of it is Uncle Sam's money so you get a nice discount.

The dealers are unionizing at the Wynn. Maybe that would help predetermine exact expectations about wages, hours, working conditions. Dealers for top spots like Bellagio, et.al. have great benefits and working conditions and excellent pay. It is not as easy as it looks.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested from a gossip perspective, in how much the big winners tip, if any. I'm not particularly interested in the ZOMG, Harrah's should pay the dealers better not us, debate.

Personally, I would've tipped an extra 80K for the win, and nothing for one of the just in the money, 20k cashes. Make of that what you will.

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont Know where to start, probably by saying how tacky your request is. A toke is a personal thing that each person must decide for themselves and not be influenced by anyone other than your perception on how your service was. I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless.

[DrewDevil]

How is a tip tax deductible? That's a new one.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]

He was wrong, plain and simple. .

[/ QUOTE ]

How was he wrong?
Please explain.
He said $X was taken out of Yang's share of the prize pool for tips.
Do you dispute that?
Were his figures off?
By how much?

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
A tip here would be tax deductible or would lower the taxable winnings by the amount of the tip, I'd guess. If you give the deserving dealers one per cent, half of it is Uncle Sam's money so you get a nice discount.

The dealers are unionizing at the Wynn. Maybe that would help predetermine exact expectations about wages, hours, working conditions. Dealers for top spots like Bellagio, et.al. have great benefits and working conditions and excellent pay. It is not as easy as it looks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The poker dealers are not part of that union that is forming. Besides, us traveling gypsies would not be able to join because we are considered temps. We are the carnies of the dark carnival known as POKER lol. I think as a whole, we would be very pleased with having a voice on the players advisory board so changes can be made for the bennifit of all involved.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested from a gossip perspective, in how much the big winners tip, if any. I'm not particularly interested in the ZOMG, Harrah's should pay the dealers better not us, debate.

Personally, I would've tipped an extra 80K for the win, and nothing for one of the just in the money, 20k cashes. Make of that what you will.

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont Know where to start, probably by saying how tacky your request is.

[/ QUOTE ]

But coming here and the other site and bashing CF for giving information and advice is not tacky?

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He was wrong, plain and simple. .

[/ QUOTE ]

How was he wrong?
Please explain.
He said $X was taken out of Yang's share of the prize pool for tips.
Do you dispute that?
Were his figures off?
By how much?

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealers only recieve 65% of the 1.8%, it is shared between over 700+ dealers and I wish I knew the total number of downs so you could calculate exactly how much each dealer would recieve. yet again this is not about the ammount, it is about CF knowing exactly how it is all diced up and this is the 2nd time that i know of of him convincing someone to not tip based on a false statement meant to mislead

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested from a gossip perspective, in how much the big winners tip, if any. I'm not particularly interested in the ZOMG, Harrah's should pay the dealers better not us, debate.

Personally, I would've tipped an extra 80K for the win, and nothing for one of the just in the money, 20k cashes. Make of that what you will.

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont Know where to start, probably by saying how tacky your request is. A toke is a personal thing that each person must decide for themselves and not be influenced by anyone other than your perception on how your service was. I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't make a request. I was commenting that I was interested in the thread to the extent that it reveals how much Yang tipped. (The additional involvement of Ferguson is also interesting gossip.) I didn't mention it, but the gossip you contributed from inside the payout room and background on how the dealers are getting compensated was interesting.

However, the whether to tip or not to tip dealers in the WSOP is a debate that's raged many times on these forums, and I find the rehash boring. That was my comment.

You may find my interest in how much the big winners toked tacky, but I didn't even solicit that information. I just looked at it when it became publicly available.

I'm sure I am interested in many things that you would find tacky or distasteful to you. Why you feel the need to reprimand me over one of them, particularly when you are a major participant in a public discussion of one of them, is baffling to me.

--Zetack

[W brad]

I have new respect for Jesus now. He gave good advice even though he could probably foresee that he would catch some heat from certain parties for doing so.

[UATrewqaz]

You pay a huge rake, you play your ass off for a week, for a once in a life time cash, and you're expected to just give away hundreds of thousands of dollars you don't have to? That's madness.

Dealers might be bitter that people around them are winning millions of dollars but that doesn't entitle them to a freaking dime of the prizepool. THey aren't risking their money and they aren't playing. They are performing a job that can be done by pretty much anyone who isn't brain dead.

If you are impressed by the dealers and the service and by Harrahs (ahahah) then feel free to tip.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
I have new respect for Jesus now. He gave good advice even though he could probably foresee that he would catch some heat from certain parties for doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weather it was good advice or not, it was incomplete information. And I have not once "bashed" Chris for what he has done or said, I simply dont like how he did it. I could have very well done the same thing, I could have told Jerry incomplete truths and make it sound like he should leave thousands for the dealers.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure in most casinos, unless the dealers don't want to, that dealers deal every type of game from the 1/2 game to the 4k/8k atleast at the Venetian. They are doing the exact same thing at each game. Yes the moneys bigger but it's still poker and it's still chips. The rake is about the same for every type of game.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is probably what they do at the Venetian. In a well run casino they have multiple rotations and send the better dealers to games with more money at stake.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He was wrong, plain and simple. .

[/ QUOTE ]

How was he wrong?
Please explain.
He said $X was taken out of Yang's share of the prize pool for tips.
Do you dispute that?
Were his figures off?
By how much?

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealers only recieve 65% of the 1.8%, it is shared between over 700+ dealers and I wish I knew the total number of downs so you could calculate exactly how much each dealer would recieve. yet again this is not about the ammount, it is about CF knowing exactly how it is all diced up and this is the 2nd time that i know of of him convincing someone to not tip based on a false statement meant to mislead

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something your toke committee should have for you. You do know this is the dealer's money to be divided up by the dealers and not Harrah's don't you?

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He was wrong, plain and simple. .

[/ QUOTE ]

How was he wrong?
Please explain.
He said $X was taken out of Yang's share of the prize pool for tips.
Do you dispute that?
Were his figures off?
By how much?

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealers only recieve 65% of the 1.8%, it is shared between over 700+ dealers and I wish I knew the total number of downs so you could calculate exactly how much each dealer would recieve. yet again this is not about the ammount, it is about CF knowing exactly how it is all diced up and this is the 2nd time that i know of of him convincing someone to not tip based on a false statement meant to mislead

[/ QUOTE ]

"Whenever someone says it's not about the money, it's about the money."

I was sympathetic at first but now you've grown whiny and tiresome. If you don't think Yang should have tipped, then please STFU.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
You pay a huge rake, you play your ass off for a week, for a once in a life time cash, and you're expected to just give away hundreds of thousands of dollars you don't have to? That's madness.

Dealers might be bitter that people around them are winning millions of dollars but that doesn't entitle them to a freaking dime of the prizepool. THey aren't risking their money and they aren't playing. They are performing a job that can be done by pretty much anyone who isn't brain dead.

If you are impressed by the dealers and the service and by Harrahs (ahahah) then feel free to tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

I give up. Alot of the readers here have been wonderful to debate with, as for the rest of you that feel it necessary to put me down and my proffession and NOT READ MY ORIGINAL POST, y'all are sad

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He was wrong, plain and simple. .

[/ QUOTE ]

How was he wrong?
Please explain.
He said $X was taken out of Yang's share of the prize pool for tips.
Do you dispute that?
Were his figures off?
By how much?

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealers only recieve 65% of the 1.8%, it is shared between over 700+ dealers and I wish I knew the total number of downs so you could calculate exactly how much each dealer would recieve. yet again this is not about the ammount, it is about CF knowing exactly how it is all diced up and this is the 2nd time that i know of of him convincing someone to not tip based on a false statement meant to mislead

[/ QUOTE ]

Yang got:
$8,250,000
Without the 6% taken out, that would be:
$8,776,596.
1.8% of that is:
$157,978.

Now the article says he said $148,500, you say $170,000.
So where is his math so far off?

The article says "the payout ladies asked what he would like to leave for the dealers", you claim they said "if he would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL (yes that is how it was stated) for the dealers".

Neither reports that they told him that the "tip in addition to that already taken out will be split 5-30-65". Or are you saying that the "additional tips" went 100% to the dealers?

And, whatever happened to " What Happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas"? Harrah's employees are privy to a private conversation, and then blab it all over the 'Net. Good way in engender good will toward your cause.

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You pay a huge rake, you play your ass off for a week, for a once in a life time cash, and you're expected to just give away hundreds of thousands of dollars you don't have to? That's madness.

Dealers might be bitter that people around them are winning millions of dollars but that doesn't entitle them to a freaking dime of the prizepool. THey aren't risking their money and they aren't playing. They are performing a job that can be done by pretty much anyone who isn't brain dead.

If you are impressed by the dealers and the service and by Harrahs (ahahah) then feel free to tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

I give up. Alot of the readers here have been wonderful to debate with, as for the rest of you that feel it necessary to put me down and my proffession and NOT READ MY ORIGINAL POST, y'all are sad

[/ QUOTE ]

P.S. Dealing cards is a job, not a profession. If you're making $50 an hour already, we simply think it's unseemly to whine about how you deserve more simply because some other guy won a ton of money in the casino where you work.

[pkrporcupine]

LMAO I have yet to understand where I stated that i wanted jerry to tip? This has nothing to do with him it has everything to do with chris and his opinions and statements that are simply not right.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
The dealers only recieve 65% of the 1.8%, it is shared between over 700+ dealers and I wish I knew the total number of downs so you could calculate exactly how much each dealer would recieve. yet again this is not about the ammount, it is about CF knowing exactly how it is all diced up and this is the 2nd time that i know of of him convincing someone to not tip based on a false statement meant to mislead

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know Chris Ferguson personally, but I think you're over the top in saying that he meant to mislead anyone.

The fact is, 1.8% gets withheld from the prize pool for tips. Now, you're right, part of that goes to the dealers and part of that goes to the staff. What you're missing is that, from the perspective of us players, that's not a particularly meaningful distinction. (I understand why it's meaningful to you, naturally.) To most of us, a tip is a tip.

If Ferguson had explained it 100%, I guess he would have said "You've already tipped $100,000 to the dealers and $50,000 to the staff, so I would recommend zero." You agree that that would be a truthful statement, right? It's not clear to me that Yang's reaction would have been, "Oh, I've only given $100,000 to the dealers, I should definitely give more!"

And I really don't think it's fair to say Ferguson meant to mislead him, as if he was thinking, "Hey, I'll tell him the dealers got $150,000 instead of $100,000, that way he'll be more likely to give him nothing!" I think Ferguson's sole interest was in making sure this relative newcomer, a nice and likable guy, wasn't misled into thinking there would be no tip if he didn't contribute something more. It surely makes no difference to Ferguson if Yang gives the dealers $10,000 or $20,000 or nothing, so why would he try to "mislead"?

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
it has everything to do with chris and his opinions and statements that are simply not right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my last post and respond to it. Don't just keep saying Chris was wrong.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
You pay a huge rake, you play your ass off for a week, for a once in a life time cash, and you're expected to just give away hundreds of thousands of dollars you don't have to? That's madness.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's been a lot of dealer-bashing in this thread, a lot of comments about how anyone could do that job and they should be happy with what they get. Now, let's be even-handed and refrain from fetishizing what it means to win the WSOP. It's a great accomplishment to be proud of, but it also has aspects of winning the lottery. Because of the size of the field, it's not exactly the cream rising to the top every time, and I think we all get that.

You might work 45 or 50 years in a typical adult life. How many people even come close to earning $8 million in all that time? So let's not get started about "playing your ass off for a week" like it's such an amazing accomplishment that you clearly earned every dime.

Every time you leave a tip in life, you're giving away money "you don't have to." Yet most of us do. I agree it's not right to be judgmental about how much someone tips, but your post makes it sound like the very thought of "giving away" hard-earned money as a tip is somehow wrong. I think that's going too far.

[Dranoel]

[ QUOTE ]


EXACTLY my point. The players pay enough in fee's and like I said originally, it should be Harrahs responsibility to give the staff and dealers a bigger chunk of the vig. I dont think it would harm them one bit to give up an additional 1.2% to make it a total of 3% withheld for the staff then do the 70/30 split. Any problems with that?
<font color="blue">And, a computer can take over almost anyones job, but I have a much better personality and I look alot better in a low cut blouse than your PC </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I like her already.

Sassy, spunky, and she has charm. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PITTM]

man, as far as handling situations poorly goes, pkrporcupine is an all star.

[IQof47]

I would love to see you be able to do what I do AND do it well enough to be televised.

It is a tough job, sometimes when fatigue sets in do you almost put 4 on the flop? Or forget the burn card? Oh the humanity. Congats on being on TV, I'm sure the nation is captivated to see who dealt the last hands of the worst WSOP ME FT ever. For Christ sake's(sorry Jerry) you guys have to call over someone every time there is the slightest problem at a table, because they don't trust you to make a competent decision.

Im sorry that you are not skilled nor educated enough to work smarter. I will make sure and wave to you next time I drive past the construction on Frank Sinatra Blvd

Haha coming from a dealer, wave all you want but isn't it tough to look that high out of the bus windows? Tell them to slow down with that construction, sounds like the market can't keep up out there, people like you will be able to buy a house soon.

[W brad]

Today you trash Jesus, last week you trashed Hellmuth. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=11128760&amp;an=&amp;page=0&amp; vc=1)

Anyone see a trend here?

[Botchman]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a job a computer does even better than you do, yet you get paid to do it on a regular basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm this is not a very good point as computers can do 90% of jobs better than humans

[PoineDexter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This may sound odd but didn't every player that entered effectively tip 1.8% ($180.00) before the event got underway win or lose? The prize won by Yang represented the monies left after the operating costs had been removed. Yang effectively contributed $180.00 just like everyone else.

Depends on how you look at it I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could look at it that way. Or you could look at it as money out of the prize pool, so that effectively only people that cashed paid a tip.

In other words, if you bust out twenty minutes into the main event, it doesn't matter whether they witheld 2% or 20%, you still end up with nothing. It would make no difference to you. To the winner however, it would make a great deal of difference in how much he's paid.

So, in my mind the tip is only actually paid by the players that cash (and perhaps the bubbles, as well, if the payout would have been deeper with no witholding for the tip).

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you and the others are saying but as you say it depends on how you look at it! I thought it funny to put forth another perspective. If you took my 10K and peeled of $180 for tournament fees that's not going near Yang to distribute as he feels fit but in the Harrah coffers. That's MY money and it's going to the dealers etc. That is to say that even the 5700 "losers" were still decent enough to tip! LOL
Yang could have made an O&amp;A gesture and made everyone feel good about it.

[DesertCat]

Someone PMd me this message. Not sure why it wasn't posted on this thread.

[ QUOTE ]

The only thing you are leaving out is breaks and getting sent home early, and not working 8 hours. Most dealers work about 2 of 3 hours during the main event, and only for 5-6 days. Many dealers have travelled across the country, and the ME is their bread and butter pay day. So if you figure they only get to work about 25 hours during the ME and get 60 an hour it isn't really all that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes better sense to me. $60 per hour makes it sound a lot richer than moving to Vegas to work for a week for $1500. Of course they just didn't deal the main event, but if you think the average dealer made $6k for the month, that's not a ton of money considering travel/lodging, and dealing with getting a month off at your current job.

[UATrewqaz]

I understand being a dealer is a thankless job and that players often mistreat them (those players are idiots) however if dealers are underpaid or have bad working conditions that is the fault of their employer.

The casino = the employer
The player = the customer

If your dealer is fast, friendly, and runs a good game and you want to tip you are more than welcome to. I have always tipped when playing live poker (only cash games) and when the dealer is good they get a toke every pot, when they are not so good it might be every other pot. If they do something that royally ticks me off I simply don't toke period.

Dealers (and other casino employees) need to demand better treatment from the casinos. A dealer in Vegas once told me you'd get fired if they even heard you say the "U" word (that would be union).

[pkrporcupine]

Do you all feel better now? Yet again for the atleast the 14th time im sure, I have not "bashed" Chris one bit. Phill....hell ya I did, he is a jerk and he showed his true colors on TV yet again for all to see. The only bashing that has happened in this thread is on the dealers by sad and pathetic posters.
There is a saying I heard recently, fighting online is like running a race in the special olympics. Even if you win, your still retarded. go ahead and bash me for picking on the handicapped too......you win

[NickyC]

I simply cannot understand why so many people are bashing pkrporcupine. When I first read her post, I thought it was incredibly well written and she did everything she could to make Yang look like a great guy. She also didn't bash Ferguson at all, just said he was misinformed. She then went on to say how much she enjoys her job, didn't expect anything from Yang, and was only disappointed that Ferguson didn't have his facts straight. THAT'S ALL SHE WAS DISAPPOINTED ABOUT.
Why is everyone giving her such a rough time? She was as gracious and as honest as she could have been, even though she lost a lot of money by not getting a substantial tip from Yang. It doesn't matter to me one bit if he tipped or not, I'm not one of those people at a poker table that says to someone after winning a pot "don't forget your dealer now". If you want to tip, you tip. If you don't want to tip, the dealers are already taken care of anyway.

Why the bashing on pkrporcupine? Except for that one totally needless comment about waving at some guy while he's doing construction (which was surely written out of frustration), I don't get the hate.

[Dranoel]

[ QUOTE ]
I simply cannot understand why so many people are bashing pkrporcupine. When I first read her post, I thought it was incredibly well written and she did everything she could to make Yang look like a great guy. She also didn't bash Ferguson at all, just said he was misinformed. She then went on to say how much she enjoys her job, didn't expect anything from Yang, and was only disappointed that Ferguson didn't have his facts straight. THAT'S ALL SHE WAS DISAPPOINTED ABOUT.
Why is everyone giving her such a rough time? She was as gracious and as honest as she could have been, even though she lost a lot of money by not getting a substantial tip from Yang. It doesn't matter to me one bit if he tipped or not, I'm not one of those people at a poker table that says to someone after winning a pot "don't forget your dealer now". If you want to tip, you tip. If you don't want to tip, the dealers are already taken care of anyway.

Why the bashing on pkrporcupine? Except for that one totally needless comment about waving at some guy while he's doing construction (which was surely written out of frustration), I don't get the hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. She came on this forum, for the first time, to state what actually happened. So what do some do? They go after her like a pinata.

Wow. It must make others feel good to bash others. Pretty sad if you get joy out of it.

/pkrporcupine: Check your private message on this site.

[Piemaster]

pkrporcupine, I am a bit confused with what point you are trying to make.

If 1.8% of the prize pool goes directly to the service staff, then would you agree that every player had already given a reasonable tip before the tournament even started? And would you agree that CF is right to point this out to an inexperienced player who is relying on him for advice? I know he got the details slightly wrong in regards to the distribution of the money, but you seem to be arguing semantics.

Would you further agree that the players shouldn't really be expected to tip given that a 'tip' has already been deducted? If you think that a tip should be a discretionary and personal thing, do you think it would be better if nothing was deducted from the prize pool for dealers?

All in all you seem to be annoyed, but I'm not quite sure who with.

[doublejoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
more players than just the winner should be tipping and adding to this total right?

[/ QUOTE ]

All players paid 1.8% out of their entry fee to pay the dealers with. Not sure how many who made the money tipped on top of that. But I'll bet that the TD and other staff pressured every single one of them:) So yes, the real number should be closer to $1M I'd guess (depending on how much mgmt raked for their own pockets).

[/ QUOTE ]
The winners are NEVER pressured to tip. It is a printed "Gratuity" line on the form and they are asked if they would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL. And yet again the dealers only get 70% of that 1.8. Also I may not be BFF with JE but the Floor staff makes enough without having to take from us and they dont "line" their pockets with players money

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Lori; the money never seems to trickle down to the dealers......

[Tater10]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact is, 1.8% gets withheld from the prize pool for tips. Now, you're right, part of that goes to the dealers and part of that goes to the staff. What you're missing is that, from the perspective of us players, that's not a particularly meaningful distinction. (I understand why it's meaningful to you, naturally.) To most of us, a tip is a tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes a lot of sense to me. If I'm paying a $200 bill at a restaurant, and about to leave $240 and someone says " 18% is already on it, don't tip extra", I thank the person, and leave exactly $200. I don't care that X% of the tips go to the bus boy, Y% to the bartender, etc etc.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
and was only disappointed that Ferguson didn't have his facts straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain where Ferguson's figures were so far off.
pkrporcupine conveniently refuses to answer that point. I assume you will too.

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
I simply cannot understand why so many people are bashing pkrporcupine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what she said in her first post:

[ QUOTE ]
The issue I have is when the payout clerk asked Jerry if he would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL (yes that is how it was stated) for the dealers, Jerry looked to chris and asked What he should do. CF Told him that the dealers already get 2%, he was then corrected by someone in the room with us that its 1.8%, so CF goes on to say that "It works out to be around 170K that you have already tipped them so no, I would not leave anything more." It Was very wrong of CF to state it in that manner because he was flat out misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread has established conclusively that Ferguson was basically correct and NOT misleading, and yet she continues to whine that he said what he did. She is both wrong and whiny, and that gets old real fast.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I simply cannot understand why so many people are bashing pkrporcupine. When I first read her post, I thought it was incredibly well written and she did everything she could to make Yang look like a great guy. She also didn't bash Ferguson at all, just said he was misinformed. She then went on to say how much she enjoys her job, didn't expect anything from Yang, and was only disappointed that Ferguson didn't have his facts straight. THAT'S ALL SHE WAS DISAPPOINTED ABOUT.
Why is everyone giving her such a rough time? She was as gracious and as honest as she could have been, even though she lost a lot of money by not getting a substantial tip from Yang. It doesn't matter to me one bit if he tipped or not, I'm not one of those people at a poker table that says to someone after winning a pot "don't forget your dealer now". If you want to tip, you tip. If you don't want to tip, the dealers are already taken care of anyway.

Why the bashing on pkrporcupine? Except for that one totally needless comment about waving at some guy while he's doing construction (which was surely written out of frustration), I don't get the hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, she called me tacky...

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, and i am an ex-dealer.

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough. I played in a MGM tourney where the dealers got $5 out of each $45 entry fee, and one dealer complained that it hardly added up to anything. When I pointed out that it was more than one of the higher placing prizes, the dealer had nothing to say to that.

If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate them too, and i used to deal.

[NCAces]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to deal the final table of the WSOP for $15/hour? There's not much upside there -- if you screw up you are going to face tons of criticism and if you do everything perfectly it will just be what you are supposed to do and you'll take your mediocre pay and go home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to life. Imagine that ... criticized when you do poorly, and just doing your job otherwise. Yeah, that's unique to poker dealers.

BTW, the post about a restaurant charing 18% and then you not being a stiff if you don't give more is the final answer on this.

NCAces

[rafiki]

these forums on here always crack me up.

Don't Americans pay huge tax on the 8M ? How much does he actually take home ? Then on top of that he's giving some to charity. If someone told me even 100k was already taken out, and I was taking say 4M home after tax and charity, I'd say that's more then fine. You're throwing cards around the table. It's less difficult then working a 7/11. The real issue isn't how much this guy should tip. It's setting up conditions with your employer. don't like the tip structure ? don't work for them.

[ForRealDD]

TTIWWP

[seemorenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
The real issue isn't how much this guy should tip. It's setting up conditions with your employer. don't like the tip structure ? don't work for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're inching closer.

A judge once told me to find another place to live if I didn't like the fact that a building I used to live in had seniors for 1/3 of its tenants and the conglomerate legally obtained exemptions so they didn't have to make all their buildings anywhere near fire-safe (self-closing doors, smoke monitors, elevator phones, dedicated elevator for firemen, self closing disposal chutes, exit lighting, emergency lighting in stairwells).

So the judge was an ass. See the connection?

The real issue is the failure of players to demand great service and to shift the reward schedule to reflect merit if the b&amp;m casinos are too lazy to do it.

[burningyen]

Praise Jesus!

[TimTimSalabim]

Yang asked for God's help, so He sent Jesus down to advise him on tipping. Maybe this prayer stuff works after all.

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't I? I may not be the best dealer out there but I have a kick ass job that i love and why shouldn't i get paid well for a job that takes alot of skill and knowledge to be done right? Hell just having to put up with players with piss poor attitudes that blame their crappy play or poor luck on me and the cards i deal.....i should make alot more

[/ QUOTE ]

takes a lot of skill?? a monkey could learn how to deal poker. again, i used to be a poker dealer, and a good one, so i know.
you say that you have a job you love, then you say you should get paid more.. makes sense.
a lot(not all) of poker dealers are overpaid whiners who think they deserve more.

[rafiki]

I'm actually pretty sure that given enough time, you really could teach a chimp to deal cards.

[Tater10]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually pretty sure that given enough time, you really could teach a chimp to deal cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but how are you going to teach it that a flush beats a straight?

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually pretty sure that given enough time, you really could teach a chimp to play PLO8.

[/ QUOTE ]

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but how are you going to teach it that a flush beats a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

We pay another guy 10$ an hour for that part ? Seems fair.

[Aristotal]

[ QUOTE ]
I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless, plus my share of the $743,866.00 tip given to us dealers by you players as well as my regular salary and would still be very pleased with having a voice on the players advisory board so changes can be made so we can get extra tips assured for next year.

[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
Next time take it up with your employer, not your employers <font color="green"> customers! </font>

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless, plus my share of the $743,866.00 tip given to us dealers by you players as well as my regular salary and would still be very pleased with having a voice on the players advisory board so changes can be made so we can get extra tips assured for next year.

[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
Next time take it up with your employer, not your employers <font color="green"> customers! </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like that's exactly what she plans on doing.

You guys are so accustomed to seeing dealers come here and whine about their tips after every WSOP that you're incapable of actually reading any of their posts.

[Aristotal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless, plus my share of the $743,866.00 tip given to us dealers by you players as well as my regular salary and would still be very pleased with having a voice on the players advisory board so changes can be made so we can get extra tips assured for next year.

[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
Next time take it up with your employer, not your employers <font color="green"> customers! </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like that's exactly what she plans on doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
"...They formed the WSOP Player Advisory Board ...to help make decisions that made sense for the players..." And just how is her asking to be on the PAB "exactly" like taking it up with her employer?

[Double Ice]

I want to hear some real, factual numbers about how much money dealers are making.

Firstly, I know for a fact that all people that receive their primary income from tips (dealers, cocktail waitresses, strippers) grossly misrepresent their income all the time. Strippers making $1000/hr in the VIP that think they are "worth" that amount for their "conversation and good looks", even when they full well know their job is just to lead clueless guys into paying constantly and never getting. Cocktail waitresses that speak up every time you don't tip, as if passing you a drink is worth ATLEAST $1, "but really you should tip more." Girls getting red chips to pass drinks, getting flags a week to grind dick, that near any girl can do. The median hourly wage in America is less than $20/hr. Its sickening that those sorts of people are bitching, in the same way that all of the above in general are bitching and misrepresenting their income to get more tips.

If you look at the post, the dealer says they get a ~$7 hourly, + bonus money. The bonus money works out to ~$200, yet you rely on WSOP for 2/3 of your yearly income? Yeah right. Face the facts, dealers are making enough money as it is. And yes I agree casinos need to be the primary person that pay dealers in tournaments.

In general, most-anyone that makes a living from tips has it good (unless their tip-outs cost too much.) The reason is: when people spend money on entertainment (including tips), they don't see a few dollars as a big deal. But it is a big deal, and a vast majority of people are working for &lt; $20/hr. It adds up quickly, the same way that alot of high stakes pros "only" make $1 or $2 a hand.

And finally about the Ferguson issue, Jerry Wang asked CF for his opinion, and CF gave it. There is no issue here. And no I do not believe the dealer "deserves" any extra windfall. Maybe the dealer is unlucky that a fish who would tip $100k didn't win. Too bad. That's why they are fish.

[okterrific]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello all. Im stopping by here first to clear a few things up then i will be posting on pokerati. I am the dealer that put out the last hand. I was in the payout room with Jerry as a representative for the dealers. I do not know if chris was invited or not but that is beside the point. First I want to say that Jerry is a wonderfull, big hearted man that played a great tourney for somebody that has only been playing for 2 years. HE DID NOT STIFF US! He was misled and didnt know any better. A stiff is someone who knows all the facts and refuses to toke and wont even say thank you. Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs. As for the main this year, 1.8% was withheld for the staff, which i might add is the smallest we have been given in years. It is split 30% to the Floor staff and its supposed to be 70% for the dealers but i have heard that a chunk of that is going to the chip runners and cashiers....dont quote me on that cuz i dont know for a fact. Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers and that was too many in my opinion because they were getting very little downs per day and having forced days off. We are NOT garunteed $25 a down, Dan misunderstood me when I was explaining to him what we have been averageing this year. Now I am not good at math without chips and cards infront of me but everything that goes into the toke pool must be shared between all dealers for that 11 days and going by CF's number that he stated in the payout room to Jerry means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me.
As for what happened last night, Jerry trusted CF to give him very sound advice because he has never won anything like this before. The issue I have is when the payout clerk asked Jerry if he would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL (yes that is how it was stated) for the dealers, Jerry looked to chris and asked What he should do. CF Told him that the dealers already get 2%, he was then corrected by someone in the room with us that its 1.8%, so CF goes on to say that "It works out to be around 170K that you have already tipped them so no, I would not leave anything more." It Was very wrong of CF to state it in that manner because he was flat out misleading. I stood there smiling, waited for Jerry to finish signing his paperwork then hugged and congratulated him once more, very sincerly. Of course i was pissed, not that Jerry declined to tip but that CF was giving him great advice on everything else but was completely wrong when it came to the dealers. I couldn't say anything because that would be considered soliciting. I just wish that he would have been properly informed and if then he declined, I am perfectly fine with that. Yes we make good money for what we do and unfortunately there are some greedy ones in the bunch. Alot of you out there calling me greedy need to understand that because i choose to work the circuit for harrahs and travel with them, I have to pay all my own expenses, my own health care and we only work about 2 weeks every month. We depend on the WSOP to make up for the rest of the year to keep us all fed till January. This 45 days of hard work is atleast 2/3 of most of our incomes. Now I believe that harrahs with the huge vig every event should be the ones responsible for giving us a bigger chunk and I think that tipping is a very personal thing that should be left to every individual to decide on and not bitter players who wish to bash us "greedy sons of...". I for one dont expect anything that i have not earned but I always appreciate a thank you for a job well done and that doesnt have to be in the form of cash and last night it was in the form of a huge hug. I love my job even with the ups and downs and honestly, This years WSOP was a great time for me. So hopefully this rambling clears up a few things and starts alot more discussions on how things can be done even better next year for all involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paraaagraaaphs are fuuuuuuun for ev'ryooooooone.

Two things Harrahs sucks and they dont seem to take care of the dealers like they are supposed to.

And why was Chris Ferguson even in the payout room? Was he staking Yang? or expecting a tip of his own? That part really seems odd to me.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is like, post of the thread imo.

[qdmcg]

Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can deal cards. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]


You guys are so accustomed to seeing dealers come here and whine about their tips after every WSOP that you're incapable of actually reading any of their posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read her posts.
She said she was angry at Ferguson for "misleading" Yang.
Yet she refuses to say how CF "misled" him. I showed how Ferguson's numbers were very close, yet she refuses to answer that point.

The OP title of ' "Jesus" advises Yang to stiff dealers ?' and the Pokerati title of 'How Jesus Helped Jerry Yang Stiff the Dealers' seem to set the tone, ie dealers were screwed and Ferguson was out of line.

[snagglepuss]

after listening to many dealers all summer bitch about tipping when they should have been dealing cards pretty much made me want to not tip them at all in the event that i managed a big win. it was pretty ludicrous and on a couple occasions i almost chimed in to tell the dealer to shut up about it when they kept ranting.

way too much money is already being sucked out by harrahs (yay rake the rebuys. yay double the rake of most tourneys), and i dont think i would part with so much as another % of my winnings.

however in the light of an enormous win, i would likely track down as many highly competent or friendly/quality dealers as i could remember over the summer and tip them very generously.

[iversonian]

[ QUOTE ]
Great another thread about tipping dealers.
I am a Craps and BJ dealer and this quote is another reason why i will never deal poker. Statements from Jerkoffs like these are why. If you dont beleive in tipping then dont do it, but dont try to influence others on what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, how DARE they try to influence others.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You guys are so accustomed to seeing dealers come here and whine about their tips after every WSOP that you're incapable of actually reading any of their posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read her posts.
She said she was angry at Ferguson for "misleading" Yang.
Yet she refuses to say how CF "misled" him. I showed how Ferguson's numbers were very close, yet she refuses to answer that point.

The OP title of ' "Jesus" advises Yang to stiff dealers ?' and the Pokerati title of 'How Jesus Helped Jerry Yang Stiff the Dealers' seem to set the tone, ie dealers were screwed and Ferguson was out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you on this point. In fact, somewhere earlier in the thread, I have a long post sticking up for Ferguson. However, the fact remains that this dealer has not once whined about how anyone, including Yang, should have tipped more. So I just want to be fair.

[W brad]

[ QUOTE ]
I can, and do, cut my own hair.

[/ QUOTE ]

For that, we need pictures.

[Double Ice]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great another thread about tipping dealers.
I am a Craps and BJ dealer and this quote is another reason why i will never deal poker. Statements from Jerkoffs like these are why. If you dont beleive in tipping then dont do it, but dont try to influence others on what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, how DARE they try to influence others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the issue. The issue is that many dealers, strippers, cocktail waitresses, etc. frequently completely lie / exaggerate their income wildly to generate more tips.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless, plus my share of the $743,866.00 tip given to us dealers by you players as well as my regular salary and would still be very pleased with having a voice on the players advisory board so changes can be made so we can get extra tips assured for next year.

[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
Next time take it up with your employer, not your employers <font color="green"> customers! </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

you are an absolute idiot. you can cut and paste and rewrite my posts all you want it just continues to show how truely childish and small minded y'all are.

and sue.....used to be a dealer? what happened? hard to believe that you ever made any money with such a crappy attitude so its understandable that you quit.

[Aristotal]

[ QUOTE ]
However, the fact remains that this dealer has not once whined about how anyone, including Yang, should have tipped more. So I just want to be fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, lets have some common sense here. This thread is filled with her posts saying she's pissed at CF for giving Yang what she thinks is 'misleading' advice on whether or not to extra tip the dealers. What other possible motivation would she have for this attitude other than she feels that she was cheated out of extra $$. She doesn't have to explicitly spell it out, her posts just scream it!

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless, plus my share of the $743,866.00 tip given to us dealers by you players as well as my regular salary and would still be very pleased with having a voice on the players advisory board so changes can be made so we can get extra tips assured for next year.

[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
Next time take it up with your employer, not your employers <font color="green"> customers! </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

you are an absolute idiot. you can cut and paste and rewrite my posts all you want it just continues to show how truely childish and small minded y'all are.

and sue.....used to be a dealer? what happened? hard to believe that you ever made any money with such a crappy attitude so its understandable that you quit.

[/ QUOTE ]

what happened? i was smart enough to learn how to play poker instead of deal it.

[Aristotal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got my tip, a wonderful heartfelt hug from a good guy and it was priceless, plus my share of the $743,866.00 tip given to us dealers by you players as well as my regular salary and would still be very pleased with having a voice on the players advisory board so changes can be made so we can get extra tips assured for next year.

[/ QUOTE ]
fyp
Next time take it up with your employer, not your employers <font color="green"> customers! </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

you are an absolute idiot. you can cut and paste and rewrite my posts all you want it just continues to show how truely childish and small minded y'all are.


[/ QUOTE ]
Great, once again, attack the post-er without even attempting to address the post... nice... mature..

[Synergistic Explosions]

Would 50k make everyone happy or would it be viewed as cheap?

[pkrporcupine]

and i have not once lied about my income. infact i said i was very pleased this year with how i have done. asfor how did chris mislead/misinform jerry.......i did answer you. you just dont like or agree with it so it is what it is

[El Diablo]

p,

"Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs."

"means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me."

"Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers"

OK, so let's work out the math here.

There were 700 dealers involved in dealing during the 11 days of the ME.

These dealers split the following:

Hourly rate of $6.41
$60,000,000 * 1.8% * 65% = $702,000
Tips when dealing cash games
Additional tip pool from other tourneys during this time

So, a dealer who dealt 8 hours a day over these 11 days would make about $1565 [$564 ($6.41 * 8 * 11) + $1,000 (700k/700)] PLUS tips they received while dealing at cash games.

Is that correct, p? Please correct the assumptions regarding how many downs the average dealer dealt in tournament and cash games.

The way many reasonable posters on this forum approach this issue is to think about whether or not the dealers are getting paid a fair wage when all things are taken into account.

The numbers make it look like dealers are getting paid far more than the $214 you thought you would get paid, more like in the $1500-2000 range.

Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't I? I may not be the best dealer out there but I have a kick ass job that i love and why shouldn't i get paid well for a job that takes alot of skill and knowledge to be done right? Hell just having to put up with players with piss poor attitudes that blame their crappy play or poor luck on me and the cards i deal.....i should make alot more

[/ QUOTE ]

you did in fact complain about how much you make. "i should make a lot more"

[pkrporcupine]

How exactly have i EXPRESSED that i wanted jerrys money? and if i got if, what in the hell would i do with it stupid? OH I KNOW!!! I could go buy in at the bellagio and become just like sue. you people blow me away, worse than a room full of 4 year olds.

here is your quote of the day again incase y'all missed it.....fighting on the internet is like running a race in the special olympics, when you win, your still retarded.

[chalk7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[/ QUOTE ]

if you aren't complaining, what needs to be better for the dealers next year?

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
p,

"Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs."

"means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me."

"Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers"

OK, so let's work out the math here.

There were 700 dealers involved in dealing during the 11 days of the ME.

These dealers split the following:

Hourly rate of $6.41
$60,000,000 * 1.8% * 65% = $702,000
Tips when dealing cash games
Additional tip pool from other tourneys during this time

So, a dealer who dealt 8 hours a day over these 11 days would make about $1565 [$564 ($6.41 * 8 * 11) + $1,000 (700k/700)] PLUS tips they received while dealing at cash games.

Is that correct, p? Please correct the assumptions regarding how many downs the average dealer dealt in tournament and cash games.

The way many reasonable posters on this forum approach this issue is to think about whether or not the dealers are getting paid a fair wage when all things are taken into account.

The numbers make it look like dealers are getting paid far more than the $214 you thought you would get paid, more like in the $1500-2000 range.

Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have yet to see this forum used for anything but a bunch of mud slinging bull crap. and read things correctly instead of just trying to piss me off. figure it out your damm self because from what i have seen here, the stuff y'all make up is so much better than the truth.
and dont bother trying to egg me on any further cause i will never pull up the site again.
Y'all have won the race

[Ckrad]

IF you think you should make as much as a doctor(mean is like 68$/hour) then you are a self absorbed man lost in a dreamworld. Doctors go through an insane amount of schooling. You can drop out of HS and be a dealer.

I gues i came off too mean here. I just have such a bad taste from so many dealers being so rude asking for tips and giving peopel dirty looks. They expect me to tip them $10 an hour. Its hard enough to beat live poker with the massive rake. Example, at MGM i win like a 300$ pot and tipped the guy $6. 10 minutes later i win lie a 40$ pot. As im stacking my chips, i look up and see the dealer staring at me. I stare back. He says "someone might wana nhelp him out, i think hes new to this." Some old guy says, he wants tyou to tip. I inform him ill tip when i want to, thanks.

[suzy89222]

el diablo's post was not rude. i think his question was a fair one to ask. are you going to answer it?

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[/ QUOTE ]

if you aren't complaining, what needs to be better for the dealers next year?

[/ QUOTE ]

another good question for you to answer, p...

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]

How exactly have i EXPRESSED that i wanted jerrys money? and if i got if, what in the hell would i do with it stupid? OH I KNOW!!! I could go buy in at the bellagio and become just like sue. you people blow me away, worse than a room full of 4 year olds.

here is your quote of the day again incase y'all missed it.....fighting on the internet is like running a race in the special olympics, when you win, your still retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's "your retarted"

[buckslayer80]

[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

End of discussion.

Nobody questions it wen you have parties of 8 or more at a restaurant. why now? Does anyone have any reliable info from dealers at the series as to the actual amount of money they made?

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

End of discussion.

Nobody questions it wen you have parties of 8 or more at a restaurant. why now? Does anyone have any reliable info from dealers at the series as to the actual amount of money they made?

[/ QUOTE ]

i have a good friend that dealt it, he said he averaged around 45 to 50 an hour plus minimum wage.

edit: he was talking about the whole world series, not just the main event

[El Diablo]

pkpr,

Cliff notes: Dealers make $1500-2000 (or more?) dealing the 11 days during the WSOP ME due largely to tip pool withheld from players, but some don't feel like that is enough and feel the players should tip an additional amount on top of that.

You came on here claiming that you were paid a measly $200 in tips for the ME, but simple math shows that you are paid over $1000 in tips alone from the ME.

Now you get angry when people point that out and ask you what you think would be more equitable.

And then you wonder why people don't have more sympathy for your whining.

Congrats, you have done a good job at getting at least one very heavy tipper less interested in overtipping dealers.

As for mudslinging, your characterization of Chris misleading Jerry is the closest to mudslinging in this thread. Apparently Chris did not know that dealers only got 65% of the 150k+ withheld from Jerry's portion of the prize pool. So he could have either said "Jerry, you have already tipped $100k from your cash" or "Jerry, the dealers have already been tipped $700,000 from the prize pool" to be more accurate. I doubt that would have changed his recommendation or Jerry's action.

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
p,

"Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs."

"means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me."

"Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers"

OK, so let's work out the math here.

There were 700 dealers involved in dealing during the 11 days of the ME.

These dealers split the following:

Hourly rate of $6.41
$60,000,000 * 1.8% * 65% = $702,000
Tips when dealing cash games
Additional tip pool from other tourneys during this time

So, a dealer who dealt 8 hours a day over these 11 days would make about $1565 [$564 ($6.41 * 8 * 11) + $1,000 (700k/700)] PLUS tips they received while dealing at cash games.

Is that correct, p? Please correct the assumptions regarding how many downs the average dealer dealt in tournament and cash games.

The way many reasonable posters on this forum approach this issue is to think about whether or not the dealers are getting paid a fair wage when all things are taken into account.

The numbers make it look like dealers are getting paid far more than the $214 you thought you would get paid, more like in the $1500-2000 range.

Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have yet to see this forum used for anything but a bunch of mud slinging bull crap. and read things correctly instead of just trying to piss me off. figure it out your damm self because from what i have seen here, the stuff y'all make up is so much better than the truth.
and dont bother trying to egg me on any further cause i will never pull up the site again.
Y'all have won the race

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the questions got too tough for you, eh, p?

p.s. youre obviously reading this.

[El Diablo]

suzy,

"i have a good friend that dealt it, he said he averaged around 45 to 50 an hour plus minimum wage."

If he's willing to share, would be interesting to hear how many hours he was able to work over the series and/or ME.

[suzy89222]

i'll work on it...

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
I have yet to see this forum used for anything but a bunch of mud slinging bull crap.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that and math.

[Mitch Evans]

Jerry wanted Chris in the room. Chris informed him of the cut and was corrected by staff. Jerry asked, "What Would Jesus Do?" Chris told him.


[ QUOTE ]
HE DID NOT STIFF US! He was misled and didnt know any better.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this says it all. You are not saying "HE DID NOT STIFF US!" because money was taken out of the pool, you are saying he did not tip because he was informed not to and had Chris not been in the room, he would have thrown a party. In other words, you still feel stiffed but kind of like when a European doesn't leave a tip in an American diner and the waitress says, "He just doesn't know any better."

Harrah's is raping the players (up to 9% vig) and the dealers (chopping up the vig unfairly) and things should be changed. That won't happen because there's too much dead money in the events to have players leave, and there are plenty of dealers that accept the higher wage regardless of how much Harrah's takes.

The players are willing to put up with up to 9% vig... play or don't play, it doesn't matter to Harrah's. Dealers... deal or don't deal, it doesn't matter to Harrah's; there are plenty of competent dealers who will deal. Gotta love corporate America.

Maybe it would be best if we went back to Buyin + Fee with no percentage of the pool withheld? Do you make more now with the percentage withheld, or did you make more when ALL of your tips were at the discretion of the players?

[mmbt0ne]

[ QUOTE ]
i cashed in one event for about 58k

they asked if i wanted to tip, i said how much of the prize pool is going to the dealers for this event

sorry we can't tell you that

so i didn't end up tipping

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more attention. Especially as the argument turned to whether or not CF was the one being misleading.

[qwnu]

pkrporcupine wrote:[ QUOTE ]
means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo wrote:[ QUOTE ]
You came on here claiming that you were paid a measly $200 in tips for the ME

[/ QUOTE ]

This was mentioned earlier but I think it bears repeating, as it's the most misleading thing going on in this thread.

The $214 figure is clearly obtained by dividing $150K by 700 dealers. But this is coming only from the winner's share, and ignores the contributions from everybody else who cashed. Pkrp obviously realizes this, but her OP was clearly worded to leave this false impression. That's misleading.

I think this whole episode is a textbook case for what happens when someone with little or no internet message board experience is thrown off the deep end. Her OP was somewhat lacking in clarity in many areas, and there were many unreasonable responses mixed with all the reasonable ones. She felt attacked, and consequently became frustrated, defensive, and increasingly hostile and irrational until she just gave up. It's a shame if she's really gone for good.

[ericicecream]

[ QUOTE ]
I look alot better in a low cut blouse than your PC

[/ QUOTE ]

Pics, please.

I will tip.

[Aristotal]

[ QUOTE ]
... I was in the payout room with Jerry as a representative for the dealers....

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? Perhaps someone could explain what 'dealers interests' she was representing in the payout room. I mean, Yang wins, yeehaw, praise the lord(literally), congratulations all around, presentations, photo ops, and then Yang, along with CF as his advisor, enters the payout room to be met with... the dealer from the final table? Was she there to hand over the cash/check/chips? Was she there attempting some sort of moral suasion, sublte pressure for an extra tip, or was she there to make sure Harrahs didn't pocket any extra tip that he might inadventantly offer?

[danielkomen]

I cashed in the ME and tipped 1%.

I had no idea what the standard practice is but ask the TD Jack at one of the WPT prelim events what was standard procedure and I think he said 1% (or maybe he said the dealers got usually around 2% and 1% was withheld).

So I stuck to the 1% at the ME. I had no idea. It was 2 am. I even asked the Harrah's person what they recommended. They said nothing.

Before I thought the 1% was like a 15% tip at a restaurant something that is just standard. But after reading this I'm thinking about not automatically doing it. It's what I've done at every tourney I've cashed at. Well actually I might have tipped more. I just usually try and figure out what is standard.

If the dealers already clearing $50 an hour then they should not tell me that they're not doing very well at the WSOP (which is what a few dealers told me when I asked).

Plus Harrah's makes so much coin from all the sponsorships, ESPN, etc, it should perhaps be their obligation to pay their employees a good wage. As it currently stands, Harrah's just gets all of this and the players get very little extra in return compared to any other tournament that does not have tons of sponsorhip $.

But this thread of reading about Yang "stiffing" the dealers makes me think twice about tipping what I did. Perhaps I'm like the European who think 30% is a standard tip in America because a waiter told him so.

[phiphika1453]

lol, she still will not own up to how much money the dealers made.

You just lost yourself another tipping customer when it comes to tournaments.

Good Luck

[pkrporcupine]

i am absolutely kicking myself for this......there is no right answer to your questions on pay. the downs and total payout has yet to be tallied and i will not know for sure untill they cut our checks on the 26th.

[Dranoel]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, she still will not own up to how much money the dealers made.

You just lost yourself another tipping customer when it comes to tournaments.

Good Luck

[/ QUOTE ]

In some States (New Jersey) they can't take out the dealer tips %.

When I cashed in a WSOP Circuit Event in AC they told me the Dealer Tip out was normally between 1%-3%. I tipped 5%. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I heard that some of the bigger cashes didn't tip out at all &amp; pretty much hurt the dealers. I like taking care of those who take care of me.

YMMV

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... I was in the payout room with Jerry as a representative for the dealers....

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? Perhaps someone could explain what 'dealers interests' she was representing in the payout room. I mean, Yang wins, yeehaw, praise the lord(literally), congratulations all around, presentations, photo ops, and then Yang, along with CF as his advisor, enters the payout room to be met with... the dealer from the final table? Was she there to hand over the cash/check/chips? Was she there attempting some sort of moral suasion, sublte pressure for an extra tip, or was she there to make sure Harrahs didn't pocket any extra tip that he might inadventantly offer?

[/ QUOTE ]

on all large payouts they have a dealer present just for the simple fact tat alot of dealers think that the td's pocket their tokes. also chris was invited by oliver, jerry's new manager, not jerry

[StuckaRack]

Asking a Hippie how much to tip = /images/graemlins/mad.gif Dealers /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[rafiki]

I'm never tipping WSOP again. And neither will my friends. Glad I've been reading all this.

[pkrporcupine]

wonderful, im sure there is a seat open at the venetian just waiting to be filled by you

[El Diablo]

pkrp,

"there is no right answer to your questions on pay"

Two simple questions.

What do you think a fair and reasonable wage is for dealing the 11-day period of the Main Event?

What do you think a fair and reasonable wage is for dealing the entire World Series from start to finish?

Thanks.

[Number27]

[ QUOTE ]
Zero is the correct number. Ferguson and other big pros were criticized by some idiot at my 1/2 NL cash game table in Seneca Niagara for leaving only a collective $5 in tips during a cash game on some cruise boat that the idiot worked on or with. The idiot was in THEIR cash game and criticized them for not tipping much, and they asked him to leave the game.

The idiot came off as an 'arrogant know-it-all American' (and that's an insult to all you fine Americans, but I'm trying to paint a picture here). The goof continued to lecture us at the 1/2 NL table by lecturing, "if you don't tip, you can't afford to play at this table". Meanwhile, the poor beginner to my right is recently occupationally disabled and asking for advice as to how to make a living at this game from us.

Lastly, if any tipping is going on, give it to the other players who played, lol, us players have to stick together... ha ha ha... (unless service is extraordinary, and tips unpooled).

The best idea ever never gets any traction: tell all dealers that you are donating to a fund to annually award the best dealer in North America $100M for being the most proficient and effective... then set up an organization that does this. Sell buttons, organize judges, audits, etc. convince a rakefree poker site to protect and collect the money, all voluntary. Why? So the players and the dealers win. The casinos would have to cough up more money to keep them there and we'll have hedge fund managers vying for that cool $100M. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hope you like getting 12 hands an hour.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
pkrp,

"there is no right answer to your questions on pay"

Two simple questions.

What do you think a fair and reasonable wage is for dealing the 11-day period of the Main Event?

What do you think a fair and reasonable wage is for dealing the entire World Series from start to finish?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

yet again there is no right answer here. i have always been happy with what i leave town with at the end of the summer and i will be this year too. whatever number i say here will only create more feul to the fire and i refuse to be your punching bag any further. also i am in a position that i will be walking away with a much larger pay than the majority of the dealers(all of the final table dealers will be) so i will not disclose my pay for that reason also.

[Number27]

[ QUOTE ]
pkrp,

"there is no right answer to your questions on pay"

Two simple questions.

What do you think a fair and reasonable wage is for dealing the 11-day period of the Main Event?

What do you think a fair and reasonable wage is for dealing the entire World Series from start to finish?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

El D, is this before or after the dealer has to pay for airfare and room and board for six weeks?

[El Diablo]

pkrp: If we as players have no idea whether you are underpaid or overpaid, how can we make an informed decision as to whether or not to tip beyond what is withheld? Some people have estimated about 10,000 dealer hours. I just did a quick guesstimate at 6000hrs for Day 1, 2000 hours for Day 2, 700 hours for Day 3, and less than that each of the other days. If it's 10,000 hours total and the tip pool for dealers was $700,000, that's $70/hr in tips. If a dealer gets 6 hours of work for 5 days during that period, that's $2100 in tips alone, plus $200-300 from Harrah's (depending on who you believe). A dealer who deals 6-hours each of the 11 days would make over $5000 for the ME. Plus pay and tips for any cash games they deal. Players simply want to understand the real numbers in play here before making tipping decisions.

N: Doesn't matter. The only relevant number to tournament players is how much money it takes to get good dealers to come out and deal the tournaments. I'd assume that dealers would take into account all relevant expenses involved before stating a figure that makes it attractive to them.

[El Diablo]

pkrp,

"so i will not disclose my pay for that reason also."

I am not asking you to disclose your pay.

I am simply asking you what you think are fair wages for dealers to be paid so that good dealers will continue to come out to deal the Series.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
p,

"Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs."

"means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me."

"Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers"

OK, so let's work out the math here.

There were 700 dealers involved in dealing during the 11 days of the ME.

These dealers split the following:

Hourly rate of $6.41
$60,000,000 * 1.8% * 65% = $702,000
Tips when dealing cash games
Additional tip pool from other tourneys during this time

So, a dealer who dealt 8 hours a day over these 11 days would make about $1565 [$564 ($6.41 * 8 * 11) + $1,000 (700k/700)] PLUS tips they received while dealing at cash games.

Is that correct, p? Please correct the assumptions regarding how many downs the average dealer dealt in tournament and cash games.

The way many reasonable posters on this forum approach this issue is to think about whether or not the dealers are getting paid a fair wage when all things are taken into account.

The numbers make it look like dealers are getting paid far more than the $214 you thought you would get paid, more like in the $1500-2000 range.

Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have yet to see this forum used for anything but a bunch of mud slinging bull crap. and read things correctly instead of just trying to piss me off. figure it out your damm self because from what i have seen here, the stuff y'all make up is so much better than the truth.
and dont bother trying to egg me on any further cause i will never pull up the site again.
Y'all have won the race

[/ QUOTE ]

Steps to profit:
1. claim you were "stiffed" in long winded internet forum post
2. provide no real evidence beyond hearsay
3. insult everyone who disagrees with you
4. insult people who provide math based on what you have said
5. gush about how nice the player who stiffed you was to seem less whiney/ungrateful.

the behavior of these dealers gets worse and worse every year. the sense of entitlement is atrocious.
6. call everyone you wrote the post to an idiot.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
pkrp: If we as players have no idea whether you are underpaid or overpaid, how can we make an informed decision as to whether or not to tip beyond what is withheld? Some people have estimated about 10,000 dealer hours. I just did a quick guesstimate at 6000hrs for Day 1, 2000 hours for Day 2, 700 hours for Day 3, and less than that each of the other days. If it's 10,000 hours total and the tip pool for dealers was $700,000, that's $70/hr in tips. If a dealer gets 6 hours of work for 5 days during that period, that's $2100 in tips alone, plus $200-300 from Harrah's (depending on who you believe). A dealer who deals 6-hours each of the 11 days would make over $5000 for the ME. Plus pay and tips for any cash games they deal. Players simply want to understand the real numbers in play here before making tipping decisions.

N: Doesn't matter. The only relevant number to tournament players is how much money it takes to get good dealers to come out and deal the tournaments. I'd assume that dealers would take into account all relevant expenses involved before stating a figure that makes it attractive to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i completely understand where you are coming from so please try and understand the position i am in too. i will tell you tho that the hours worked is not the meat of the equation. the 6.41/hour is handled by harrahs. dealers are getting paid for total tournament (ME and extra tourneys) tables worked from 7/6 to 7/17. The total withholding from all events 7/6 to 7/17 for the dealers, all tournament side tokes that are specified for dealers all go into one bucket. The toke commitee will then add up the total tourney downs and come up with the ammount per down, lets just say it will be $30 per down. my roomate was sent home on day 5 with a total of 38 downs (They claimed she had a high ammount so she was done). so her pay will be 38 downs x $30 = $1140 plus her hourly which is 56 x $6.41=$358.90 for a gross total $1498.90. then uncle sam takes his part. if a dealer was lucky to get into the cash game rotation when they were told they had too many downs, then that cash goes straight into their pocket.
I hope you understand how it is done now.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... I was in the payout room with Jerry as a representative for the dealers....

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? Perhaps someone could explain what 'dealers interests' she was representing in the payout room. I mean, Yang wins, yeehaw, praise the lord(literally), congratulations all around, presentations, photo ops, and then Yang, along with CF as his advisor, enters the payout room to be met with... the dealer from the final table? Was she there to hand over the cash/check/chips? Was she there attempting some sort of moral suasion, sublte pressure for an extra tip, or was she there to make sure Harrahs didn't pocket any extra tip that he might inadventantly offer?

[/ QUOTE ]

A dealer is always present when a touranment it paid out to make sure that the people receiving the money don't pocket tips that were meant for the dealers. I can list a number of times a dealer wasn't presetn to protect the dealers, but I will just mention two. The Plaza in the late 90s would hold WSOP satellites (along with other tournaments); their TD (I forget his name but I would recognize it in a moment if someone told me what it was) would pocket all tips that were given to him in private and any that were given to him in the open if witnesses didn't specifically hear the player say "this is for the dealers." Whenever he coudl he paid in private so he could take all the tokes that were meant for the dealers. Another case was one I came on board very late and the internal controls had already been written for the players to get paid at the cage. They cage handed them their money and they tipped when handed the money and the cage felt it was a tip for them for paying rather than a tip to the dealers for dealing.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
p,

"Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs."

"means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me."

"Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers"

OK, so let's work out the math here.

There were 700 dealers involved in dealing during the 11 days of the ME.

These dealers split the following:

Hourly rate of $6.41
$60,000,000 * 1.8% * 65% = $702,000
Tips when dealing cash games
Additional tip pool from other tourneys during this time

So, a dealer who dealt 8 hours a day over these 11 days would make about $1565 [$564 ($6.41 * 8 * 11) + $1,000 (700k/700)] PLUS tips they received while dealing at cash games.

Is that correct, p? Please correct the assumptions regarding how many downs the average dealer dealt in tournament and cash games.

The way many reasonable posters on this forum approach this issue is to think about whether or not the dealers are getting paid a fair wage when all things are taken into account.

The numbers make it look like dealers are getting paid far more than the $214 you thought you would get paid, more like in the $1500-2000 range.

Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have yet to see this forum used for anything but a bunch of mud slinging bull crap. and read things correctly instead of just trying to piss me off. figure it out your damm self because from what i have seen here, the stuff y'all make up is so much better than the truth.
and dont bother trying to egg me on any further cause i will never pull up the site again.
Y'all have won the race

[/ QUOTE ]

Steps to profit:
1. claim you were "stiffed" in long winded internet forum post
2. provide no real evidence beyond hearsay
3. insult everyone who disagrees with you
4. insult people who provide math based on what you have said
5. gush about how nice the player who stiffed you was to seem less whiney/ungrateful.

the behavior of these dealers gets worse and worse every year. the sense of entitlement is atrocious.
6. call everyone you wrote the post to an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dare you to honestly ,without rewriting my posts, show me where i ever said that Jerry Y stiffed me or the dealers!
2. It is not hearsay when I was PHYSICALLY there is it?
3.I only insult the posters that have bashed me, misquoted or outright just acted like a child.
4.Yet again please read my OP. never argued the numbers just how CF stated a half truth.
5. I will gush over Jerry. He has more heart than all of you combined.
6. Hahahaha

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pkrp: If we as players have no idea whether you are underpaid or overpaid, how can we make an informed decision as to whether or not to tip beyond what is withheld? Some people have estimated about 10,000 dealer hours. I just did a quick guesstimate at 6000hrs for Day 1, 2000 hours for Day 2, 700 hours for Day 3, and less than that each of the other days. If it's 10,000 hours total and the tip pool for dealers was $700,000, that's $70/hr in tips. If a dealer gets 6 hours of work for 5 days during that period, that's $2100 in tips alone, plus $200-300 from Harrah's (depending on who you believe). A dealer who deals 6-hours each of the 11 days would make over $5000 for the ME. Plus pay and tips for any cash games they deal. Players simply want to understand the real numbers in play here before making tipping decisions.

N: Doesn't matter. The only relevant number to tournament players is how much money it takes to get good dealers to come out and deal the tournaments. I'd assume that dealers would take into account all relevant expenses involved before stating a figure that makes it attractive to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i completely understand where you are coming from so please try and understand the position i am in too. i will tell you tho that the hours worked is not the meat of the equation. the 6.41/hour is handled by harrahs. dealers are getting paid for total tournament (ME and extra tourneys) tables worked from 7/6 to 7/17. The total withholding from all events 7/6 to 7/17 for the dealers, all tournament side tokes that are specified for dealers all go into one bucket. The toke commitee will then add up the total tourney downs and come up with the ammount per down, lets just say it will be $30 per down. my roomate was sent home on day 5 with a total of 38 downs (They claimed she had a high ammount so she was done). so her pay will be 38 downs x $30 = $1140 plus her hourly which is 56 x $6.41=$358.90 for a gross total $1498.90. then uncle sam takes his part. if a dealer was lucky to get into the cash game rotation when they were told they had too many downs, then that cash goes straight into their pocket.
I hope you understand how it is done now.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's the 2nd time you mentioned having to pay taxes. did you not know that everyone who is employed pays taxes?

[pkrporcupine]

do you ever have anything productive to say? or are you just so bitter that you feel the need to just needle? and go ahead and say some snide nasty reply, i expect it. you came into this thread putting down the job and co-workers that helped you get to where you are today. i hope that the dealers out there working hard to provide you with a smooth tournament, woking towards a goal to make the move from dealer to player, just as you have, see you as a role modle of how NOT to behave.

[suzy89222]

i appreciate professional dealers that dont whine about being underpaid. unfortunately, those are few and far between.

by the way, i knew you wouldnt stay away, lol.

you have still ignored a few questions.

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[/ QUOTE ]

if you aren't complaining, what needs to be better for the dealers next year?

[/ QUOTE ]

another good question for you to answer, p...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is one of them, and again, you did complain. "i should make a lot more", remember?

[suzy89222]

Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?


another one for u...

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?


[/ QUOTE ]

Does it really matter what one person thinks is reasonable? When in reality, everyone in this world probably has a different view on what is reasonable and about the only thing answering that question will ever do is result into yet another flame war about who should and shouldn't make a living and how the number states "isn't fair" or "is unjustified for dealing". So really, what's the point?

[suzy89222]

of course it doesnt really matter. not much does.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[/ QUOTE ]

if you aren't complaining, what needs to be better for the dealers next year?

[/ QUOTE ]

another good question for you to answer, p...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is one of them, and again, you did complain. "i should make a lot more", remember?

[/ QUOTE ]
first off that was in a joking manner so stop putting me in that corner.
IMO,to make make things better for the dealers next year, I still say that there should be someone representing the dealers on the PAB to help all sides of the game come together. It would be a way for the pay problems to get fixed to where it bennifits EVERYONE involved.
And lastly, I will not disclose how much I expect to make this year. please refer to the previous post.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?


[/ QUOTE ]

Does it really matter what one person thinks is reasonable? When in reality, everyone in this world probably has a different view on what is reasonable and about the only thing answering that question will ever do is result into yet another flame war about who should and shouldn't make a living and how the number states "isn't fair" or "is unjustified for dealing". So really, what's the point?

[/ QUOTE ]

And sue, I did answer that question a few posts back

[Jooka]

[ QUOTE ]

first off that was in a joking manner so stop putting me in that corner.
IMO,to make make things better for the dealers next year, I still say that there should be someone representing the dealers on the PAB to help all sides of the game come together. It would be a way for the pay problems to get fixed to where it bennifits EVERYONE involved.
And lastly, I will not disclose how much I expect to make this year. please refer to the previous post.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont agree with this at all. You are given a fair cut from every single event. Its not the players fault or responsibility to see to your needs when Harrah's has already taken it into there hands to see to your needs. If they arent satisfactory talk with them. Players pay out every single event for dealers, not seeing a big enough share of that, talk w/ harrahs.

[gisb0rne]

[ QUOTE ]
Good thing I don't play tournaments. I would figure out roughly how many hands I played and tip that many dollars total. I would not tip random people $200,000 just because I became a millionaire. I would much rather buy a family member a house or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you won no money you would still tip the same amount? Alright that sounds fair.

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[/ QUOTE ]

if you aren't complaining, what needs to be better for the dealers next year?

[/ QUOTE ]

another good question for you to answer, p...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is one of them, and again, you did complain. "i should make a lot more", remember?

[/ QUOTE ]
first off that was in a joking manner so stop putting me in that corner.
IMO,to make make things better for the dealers next year, I still say that there should be someone representing the dealers on the PAB to help all sides of the game come together. It would be a way for the pay problems to get fixed to where it bennifits EVERYONE involved.
And lastly, I will not disclose how much I expect to make this year. please refer to the previous post.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are the pay problems?

[pkrporcupine]

Hello Photoc! Nice to see you again. I met you awhile back in the Dealers Forum, Coloradolola. Nice to see you and hope you are doing well.

[pkrporcupine]

what are the pay problems?

You are kidding me right? I actually thought more of you so I will not answer this. Welcome to the thread.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

I think dealers should get a reasonable tip. 2% seems pretty fair.

One thing I can't stand (particularly at places staffed by teenagers/college kids) is these fast food places where the kid takes your order and gives your food to you on a tray, yet they have a tip jar. It's like $9 for a sandwich isn't enough, you expect another dollar or two to help pay your staff. Considering the margins at Starbucks, this tip jar thingy is unseemly. /rant


[/ QUOTE ]

I get slightly pissed off whenever I don't see a tip jar, because there should be an opportunity for people to leave extra if they want to. Also, change can be a major nuisance sometimes, and I'd often prefer to get rid of it.

[rwesty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good thing I don't play tournaments. I would figure out roughly how many hands I played and tip that many dollars total. I would not tip random people $200,000 just because I became a millionaire. I would much rather buy a family member a house or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if you won no money you would still tip the same amount? Alright that sounds fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If everyone at the table did this dealers would make over $500/hr.

[Ramon Scott]

10k entry, $600 of which is deducted for Harrah's administration of the event.

9.4k goes to prize pool

Every player that enters has 1.8 percent out of its contributed prize money given to dealers and floor staff as gratuity.

1.3 percent of the 1.8 percent goes to dealer tip pool.

Every player that enters is giving $122.20 to the dealer tip pool.

Now, maybe Ferguson could've said, "well, Jerry, you have already given $122.20 to the dealers, as did everybody who entered the main event, therefore, I would give ZERO."

It is important to note, that for those that say people who busted out did not contribute to the tipping, I would say, then why didn't they receive their $122.20 back.

Therefore, Mr. Yang contributed exactly the same as every other entrant, except for those that added an additional tip when cashing out.

I would say that I feel that if Mr. Yang knew that he gave $122.20 to the dealers ($174.60 total for the entire staff tip), that he would've given more, if not much more. Even 1-2 percent of 4.5 million (sans tax and 10 percent charity donation) could've meant an additional 50k gratuity).

Another example of this type of small 1.3-1.8 percent toke would be comparable in recreation poker's most famous prize - The Bad Beat Jackpot. While a typical player may give 1-3 dollars per hand in a regular cash game, the same player rarely gives just the same amount when receiving this prize.

A dealer that makes 15-25 dollars per half hour down can often make $200-$2000 dollars depending on the size of the jackpot. A regular player in a room that receives this windfall often likes to be generous with their regular dealers.

How about when the Pizza waitress just like week were waiting on her regular customers with the same grace and kindness that she always presented to her guests, which had befriended her by going to the restaurant each week. When the family learned of the waitresses hardship following family tragedy, they gave her a 10k tip, probably on the same $40 meal.

I have won two B&amp;M tournaments. The first time I won, I tipped 25 percent of my winnings (like many have said in here, that is a personal choice). The second time I won, I gave 22 percent. I tipped this amount because I was playing in my favorite room to play in and felt very good about being generous. I enjoy the reputation I have about my gratuity habits and do so because I can afford to make those that work for my enjoyment have just a little bit better than average lifestyle or income.

My position on dealer tokes is that it is the preferred payment system to dealers to insure the professional standards, as opposed to a more-hourly-wage/no tokes allowed system. I believe that most players that earn a living from playing poker also prefer this method to prevent higher turnover, inexperienced staff, and mistake-filled games.

While the dealer was gracious in praising Jerry, who no doubt is a far better man than I am, I will say that I will think less of Mr. Ferguson, who I have been very impressed with on and off the felt since I have followed his career (even taking pictures in person of him and close female friend who really admires him). I enjoy the professionalism he bring to the game. However, I will refrain from taking the same hard stance against Mr. Yang because I agree that he may have been misinformed about how much he had already tipped.

Again, if Jerry was tipping 1.8 (1.3) percent of his prize to the dealers, then why wasn't everyone who busted out before cashing, having their $122 ($174) returned to them.

That being said, I was not a fan of Yang in watching him play. I just didn't enjoy his god fearing intervention upon calling for cards. And I'm not sure that his play will stand up over the long run if he decides to pursue a professional poker career.

I will compliment him on his relentless aggression that vaulted him from eighth to first in the opening 90 minutes. It was unbelievable that he was able to parlay his table image coming into the final table and that the players bought his raises and reraises before they knew what he was up to and they were afraid to try and stop him.

The QQ laydown will be interesting to see if that was the best hand, and then Hilm having just bottom pair with flush draw resigning to a likely gamble with the relentless Yang. Yang even said in the post-interview that he bluffed alot. I think the hole cards will show what everybody - even the final table players assumed after it was too late - that he was on the steal.

I would like to hear more from OliverT, believe it or not, regarding this issue.

Does Jerry know that he tipped the staff about $175 off his his 4.5 mil take home prize?

If Mr. Yang comes on to twoplustwo and says that he feels that the 1.3 (1.8) percent given by the players prior to the start of the tournament is acceptable to him, then I will have to take exception to his position. That will not change my opinion of his character, it will just make me categorize him as a far-below-average tipper.

I think most veteran poker players agree that 1-2 percent of an awarded prize is the standard (providing the service was worthy). If the winner wanted to subtract all the previous gratuity charges that he paid in other tournaments prior to cashing, that would be understood, as well.

Again, the players that didn't cash, did not receive their $122 ($174) back because they didn't cash.

And from this point, although I have enjoyed watching Mr. Ferguson play televised tournaments, I will probably consider him from this point forward to be a far-below-average tipper, and nothing else, judging from his comments to Mr. Yang. Surprising since, although still never proven and supposedly on the super-down-low, his true financial involvement with Full Tilt, which many have speculated on this board to be substantial to the point of extreme financial success.

[frommagio]

I'm still not understanding your point about Chris Ferguson's inaccurate statements, or half-truths. From what I can tell, the math presented in a number of posts throughout this thread seems to indicate that CF's estimate was on the mark.

Now there are a lot of unknowns in how the distribution actually works (the Harrah's process), but the gross math seems to suggest that the players collectively did their part, even without additional tipping.

The restaurant analogy - 18% automatically withheld, tip additionally if you care to - seems to be quite apropos. For a poker tournament, that might translate to finding individuals who delivered particularly good service. After reading this thread, that's what I would do if I found myself in this position.

So I guess I'm left with the conclusion that a number of others have reached: that the dealers' argument, if any, is with Harrah's. The players collectively seem to have done their part.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not understanding your point about Chris Ferguson's inaccurate statements, or half-truths. From what I can tell, the math presented in a number of posts throughout this thread seems to indicate that CF's estimate was on the mark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the posts in the earlier part of this thread. CF said the dealers were getting 2.0% of JY's win. Not even close. The dealers are in fact getting 2/3 (65%) of the 1.8% withheld for the staff or 1.2% (2/3 of 1.8). That is a 75% difference from 1.2% to the 2.0% which CF was quoted as saying. That is quite a difference.

[fnurt]

This is some awful logic.

The point is, if no tip had been taken out for the dealers, that money would have been in the prize pool. First prize would have been $150,000 more than it was.

You can play all the word games you want, but to claim that the winner only tipped $100 or so is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

[Punker]

[ QUOTE ]
having been hired as Jerry's agent for the WSOP Main Event on Monday afternoon... Oliver Tse

[/ QUOTE ]

If he thought he needed God's help before....

[Ramon Scott]

How much of Mr. Yang's $9,400 entry was taken out for tips exactly? Certainly, it was 1.8 percent (with 1.3 going to the dealers.) The dealer/floor toke was paid before the tournament started. Everyone ponied up exactly the same amount.

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
This is some awful logic.

The point is, if no tip had been taken out for the dealers, that money would have been in the prize pool. First prize would have been $150,000 more than it was.

You can play all the word games you want, but to claim that the winner only tipped $100 or so is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

horrible logic indeed. there are so many problems with that post, i dont know where to begin.

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not understanding your point about Chris Ferguson's inaccurate statements, or half-truths. From what I can tell, the math presented in a number of posts throughout this thread seems to indicate that CF's estimate was on the mark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the posts in the earlier part of this thread. CF said the dealers were getting 2.0% of JY's win. Not even close. The dealers are in fact getting 2/3 (65%) of the 1.8% withheld for the staff or 1.2% (2/3 of 1.8). That is a 75% difference from 1.2% to the 2.0% which CF was quoted as saying. That is quite a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, those remarks miss the point, and that has been repeatedly explained. It's not the tipper's concern how the establishment and its employees agreed to distribute the pool among themselves. From what was stated, Harrah's won't even provide that information to the players; how should the player know?

CF's point was that 2% (actually, 1.8%) of a $62 mil prize fund had already been turned over for tips, and he cited the amount that had already come from the winner's share.

That was pretty good info that Jerry needed to know - delivered by a knowledgeable person at just the right time. It demonstrated that the tipped personnel had been well taken care of by the players. This allowed Jerry to realize that any additional gratuity would be entirely optional.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pkrp: If we as players have no idea whether you are underpaid or overpaid, how can we make an informed decision as to whether or not to tip beyond what is withheld? Some people have estimated about 10,000 dealer hours. I just did a quick guesstimate at 6000hrs for Day 1, 2000 hours for Day 2, 700 hours for Day 3, and less than that each of the other days. If it's 10,000 hours total and the tip pool for dealers was $700,000, that's $70/hr in tips. If a dealer gets 6 hours of work for 5 days during that period, that's $2100 in tips alone, plus $200-300 from Harrah's (depending on who you believe). A dealer who deals 6-hours each of the 11 days would make over $5000 for the ME. Plus pay and tips for any cash games they deal. Players simply want to understand the real numbers in play here before making tipping decisions.

N: Doesn't matter. The only relevant number to tournament players is how much money it takes to get good dealers to come out and deal the tournaments. I'd assume that dealers would take into account all relevant expenses involved before stating a figure that makes it attractive to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i completely understand where you are coming from so please try and understand the position i am in too. i will tell you tho that the hours worked is not the meat of the equation. the 6.41/hour is handled by harrahs. dealers are getting paid for total tournament (ME and extra tourneys) tables worked from 7/6 to 7/17. The total withholding from all events 7/6 to 7/17 for the dealers, all tournament side tokes that are specified for dealers all go into one bucket. The toke commitee will then add up the total tourney downs and come up with the ammount per down, lets just say it will be $30 per down. my roomate was sent home on day 5 with a total of 38 downs (They claimed she had a high ammount so she was done). so her pay will be 38 downs x $30 = $1140 plus her hourly which is 56 x $6.41=$358.90 for a gross total $1498.90. then uncle sam takes his part. if a dealer was lucky to get into the cash game rotation when they were told they had too many downs, then that cash goes straight into their pocket.
I hope you understand how it is done now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming the $30/down is reasonable, and it certainly could be, that's a massive amount of money.

Also, stop whining about taxes.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]


CF's point was that 2% (actually, 1.8%) of a $62 mil prize fund had already been turned over for tips, and he cited the amount that had already come from the winner's share.

That was pretty good info that Jerry needed to know - delivered by a knowledgeable person at just the right time. It demonstrated that the tipped personnel had been well taken care of by the players. This allowed Jerry to realize that any additional gratuity would be entirely optional.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was listed on the website and various paperwork exactly how the withholding % was distributed. It said exactly 1.8% will be witheld for tournament staff. And obviuosly the 1.2% figure or 65/70% has gotten out quite easily (other than this thread), I don't see how Harrahs refused to share information. All these numbers were readily available online and in writing at the Rio.

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

i read a lot of this, but when i got to the part when the whiny dealer was insulting construction workers i was too disgusted to continue....

dealing poker is one of the easiest, most enjoyable, simplest, ridiculously overpaid jobs in the world. i have no idea why any of them would be complaining. i cant even think of a more simple job that gets $50+ an hr.

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


CF's point was that 2% (actually, 1.8%) of a $62 mil prize fund had already been turned over for tips, and he cited the amount that had already come from the winner's share.

That was pretty good info that Jerry needed to know - delivered by a knowledgeable person at just the right time. It demonstrated that the tipped personnel had been well taken care of by the players. This allowed Jerry to realize that any additional gratuity would be entirely optional.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was listed on the website and various paperwork exactly how the withholding % was distributed. It said exactly 1.8% will be witheld for tournament staff. And obviuosly the 1.2% figure or 65/70% has gotten out quite easily (other than this thread), I don't see how Harrahs refused to share information. All these numbers were readily available online and in writing at the Rio.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point. The Ferguson info was essentially accurate; the winner had already left a very nice tip, and Chris delivered the approximate number.

It's not the players' job to tell the employees and the management how they should arrange to divide it up, or even to delve into the details. I guess that's where you disagree.

The withheld gratuity at the restaurant is a great analogy. Chris just gave the info that any respectable restaurant would have provided.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]


Every player that enters has 1.8 percent out of its contributed prize money given to dealers and floor staff as gratuity.

1.3 percent of the 1.8 percent goes to dealer tip pool.

Every player that enters is giving $122.20 to the dealer tip pool.

Now, maybe Ferguson could've said, "well, Jerry, you have already given $122.20 to the dealers, as did everybody who entered the main event, therefore, I would give ZERO."

It is important to note, that for those that say people who busted out did not contribute to the tipping, I would say, then why didn't they receive their $122.20 back.

Therefore, Mr. Yang contributed exactly the same as every other entrant, except for those that added an additional tip when cashing out.


[/ QUOTE ]

The above might seem to make sense, but in reality is simply and completely wrong. It's the same as saying that in the roulette, the house makes its money from (for example) people betting on red when black comes up. In truth, the house makes its money by paying those who bet on black (and always bet on black /images/graemlins/smirk.gif) less than the correct payout as determined by the odds.

In the exact same fashion, the dealer tips come only from the winners being paid less than they should based on the buyin. Jerry Yang did tip $100k or so, and those who finished out of the money tipped exactly $0.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
How much of Mr. Yang's $9,400 entry was taken out for tips exactly? Certainly, it was 1.8 percent (with 1.3 going to the dealers.) The dealer/floor toke was paid before the tournament started. Everyone ponied up exactly the same amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

NONE of his entry was taken out for tips. The tips came from the PRIZE POOL.

See the roulette example in my previous post if you do not understand the difference.

[Ramon Scott]

The winner didn't leave a tip at all.

Remember, Chris Ferguson told him... "zero."

The players left gave a 1.8 percent tip prior to the start of the tournament (approx. 1.3 percent going to the dealers).

We may be able to call it around two percent since there were likely some players that did cash who elected to leave an addition gratuity.

Suz and Jfert, what part of this assigned toke do you not understand? And what gives Mr. Yang the right to proclaim that he is paying the gratuity for all those that didn't cash when all those folks who indeed didn't cash in the tournament were forced to give $174 prior to the start of the event.

If you are saying my argument is flawed, then will Mr. Yang consider returning the $174 to those who didn't cash in the tournament?

I am not arguing that amount of assigned gratuity at the start, in fact, it may be a safeguard by Harrah's that they get relatively competent personnel for the game's largest and most important event.

I only argue that Mr. Yang, under the advice of Mr. Ferguson, appears to me to be a far-less-than-average tipper for someone who has garnered approx. $4.5 million of winnings in a poker tournament.

If you folks would've done the same thing, then I would classify you the same way. However, if you would've toked an additional 1-2 percent of your winnings to the tip pool, then I for one, would've said, "wow, what a guy (gal), can you believe the extraordinary generosity of the winner!"

Your trying to reinforce in me the percentage of gratuity, which I accept, but that still doesn't change the outcome.

Until an overwhleming argument is shown to me, I will consider Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Yang, far-below-average tippers. This will not change my judgement of them as people, as they appear to be quite upstanding.

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't I? I may not be the best dealer out there but I have a kick ass job that i love and why shouldn't i get paid well for a job that takes alot of skill and knowledge to be done right? Hell just having to put up with players with piss poor attitudes that blame their crappy play or poor luck on me and the cards i deal.....i should make alot more

[/ QUOTE ]

Should you make more than nurses?

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
If you folks would've done the same thing, then I would classify you the same way. However, if you would've toked an additional 1-2 percent of your winnings to the tip pool, then I for one, would've said, "wow, what a guy (gal), can you believe the extraordinary generosity of the winner!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Your arguement makes no sense whatsoever. If Yang had gotten the ~$8.4M that the entry fees dictated and left a $150k tip (for the same $8.25M net), you'd be saying "wow, what a guy!" Simply because the amount was taken automaticallly from his winnings, however, now (in your mind) he's a bum.

How can you possibly rationalize this?

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dealers complain they're under paid, but won't tell how much they're making

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. stop complaining if you aren't willing to be upfront about how much you make. obviously dealers complain because they want the tipping culture to change/improve, yet how can they create change without showing that they are being paid unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I NEVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PAY OR SAID THAT I WAS BEING PAID UNFAIRLY
OMG do you even understand the english language???
I am highly unimpressed with the lack of intelligence found in this forum. I really hope that Harrahs and the PAB will bring on a rep for the dealers so this can be better for the players and staff next year

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously feel players should tip an amount in addition to the tournament fee. Thank you for completely ignoring my simple questions about how much you were paid and for insulting me unprovoked. Sorry you have to pay taxes like everyone else. Sorry you might not have made enough from dealing the WSOP to support yourself for 2/3 of the year. I'm sure your posts in this thread have enlightened everyone here and you will be more adequately compensated next year.

[Ramon Scott]

No, then he would be an average tipper.

That doesn't make someone a "bum".

In fact, I would thank them "very much."

The OP said how much she thought of Mr. Yang, as she was overwhelmingly positive.

When dealing with this size of prize, the difference, between two and four percent, is how I would categorize the increasing generosity of the players which cash, not just the winner, mind you.

Taking the winner into consideration, however, it could've been an additional toke of 10k on up.

If the winner, and others who have cashed, gave an additional tip, would there be a thread, saying that we are acting irresponsibly by adding an additional gratuity. From several accounts so far, there are players who did give an additional tip when getting paid out.

[suzy89222]

"If the winner and others who have cashed that we don't know if they gave an additional tip, would there be a thread, saying that we are acting irresponsibly by adding an additional gratuity."

for your sake, i hope english isnt your first language.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
i read a lot of this, but when i got to the part when the whiny dealer was insulting construction workers i was too disgusted to continue....
<font color="red">I DEEPLY appologize that many of you took this as whining. As for insulting someone who outright insulted me, dont dish it if you cant take it. </font>

dealing poker is one of the easiest, most enjoyable, simplest, ridiculously overpaid jobs in the world. i have no idea why any of them would be complaining. i cant even think of a more simple job that gets $50+ an hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">I have tried my best to walk away from this but with all the insults towards me, the false asumptions of my intent and the obvious attacks on my intelligence and character, ugh, I wish you all good fortune and I hope that this will evolve into an actual discussion on some very real topics that have been brought to light here. I will no longer be answering any further posts here or posting anywhere in this forum. If you have a legitimate question for me, I will be at pokerati.com. Please do not turn that blog into a trash-a-thon like some of you have done here. </font>

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i read a lot of this, but when i got to the part when the whiny dealer was insulting construction workers i was too disgusted to continue....
<font color="red">I DEEPLY appologize that many of you took this as whining. As for insulting someone who outright insulted me, dont dish it if you cant take it. </font>

dealing poker is one of the easiest, most enjoyable, simplest, ridiculously overpaid jobs in the world. i have no idea why any of them would be complaining. i cant even think of a more simple job that gets $50+ an hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">I have tried my best to walk away from this but with all the insults towards me, the false asumptions of my intent and the obvious attacks on my intelligence and character, ugh, I wish you all good fortune and I hope that this will evolve into an actual discussion on some very real topics that have been brought to light here. I will no longer be answering any further posts here or posting anywhere in this forum. If you have a legitimate question for me, I will be at pokerati.com. Please do not turn that blog into a trash-a-thon like some of you have done here. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

So is $30/down about what you are expecting?

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
The winner didn't leave a tip at all.

Remember, Chris Ferguson told him... "zero."

The players left gave a 1.8 percent tip prior to the start of the tournament (approx. 1.3 percent going to the dealers).

We may be able to call it around two percent since there were likely some players that did cash who elected to leave an addition gratuity.

Suz and Jfert, what part of this assigned toke do you not understand? And what gives Mr. Yang the right to proclaim that he is paying the gratuity for all those that didn't cash when all those folks who indeed didn't cash in the tournament were forced to give $174 prior to the start of the event.

If you are saying my argument is flawed, then will Mr. Yang consider returning the $174 to those who didn't cash in the tournament?

I am not arguing that amount of assigned gratuity at the start, in fact, it may be a safeguard by Harrah's that they get relatively competent personnel for the game's largest and most important event.

I only argue that Mr. Yang, under the advice of Mr. Ferguson, appears to me to be a far-less-than-average tipper for someone who has garnered approx. $4.5 million of winnings in a poker tournament.

If you folks would've done the same thing, then I would classify you the same way. However, if you would've toked an additional 1-2 percent of your winnings to the tip pool, then I for one, would've said, "wow, what a guy (gal), can you believe the extraordinary generosity of the winner!"

Your trying to reinforce in me the percentage of gratuity, which I accept, but that still doesn't change the outcome.

Until an overwhleming argument is shown to me, I will consider Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Yang, far-below-average tippers. This will not change my judgement of them as people, as they appear to be quite upstanding.

[/ QUOTE ]
I cannot pass this by, Jerry IS a very generous man and was only doing what he was advised to do. He has never been apart of something this large and had no clue on what was cutomary. PLEASE PLEASE do not lable him as a less-than-average tipper and a less-than-average person. He is far from both and I am positive that if he was given the FULL picture, he would have left a little more.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
And what gives Mr. Yang the right to proclaim that he is paying the gratuity for all those that didn't cash when all those folks who indeed didn't cash in the tournament were forced to give $174 prior to the start of the event.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, in fact, the players who didn't cash weren't forced to give a dime towards the tip. Everyone would have paid $10,000 regardless.

Let's assume that Harrah's, for whatever reason, had chosen not to deduct any tip for the staff and leave it entirely up to the players' discretion. In that scenario, do you contend that they would have charged an entry fee of $9,826 to this year's WSOP?

Of course not. The entry fee was going to be $10,000 regardless. So the people who didn't cash didn't pay one single, solitary dime towards the tip. The cost was borne entirely by the prizewinners, who received less than they otherwise would have.

This being the Internet, I've already explained this one more time than I should have.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The winner didn't leave a tip at all.

Remember, Chris Ferguson told him... "zero."

The players left gave a 1.8 percent tip prior to the start of the tournament (approx. 1.3 percent going to the dealers).

We may be able to call it around two percent since there were likely some players that did cash who elected to leave an addition gratuity.

Suz and Jfert, what part of this assigned toke do you not understand? And what gives Mr. Yang the right to proclaim that he is paying the gratuity for all those that didn't cash when all those folks who indeed didn't cash in the tournament were forced to give $174 prior to the start of the event.

If you are saying my argument is flawed, then will Mr. Yang consider returning the $174 to those who didn't cash in the tournament?

I am not arguing that amount of assigned gratuity at the start, in fact, it may be a safeguard by Harrah's that they get relatively competent personnel for the game's largest and most important event.

I only argue that Mr. Yang, under the advice of Mr. Ferguson, appears to me to be a far-less-than-average tipper for someone who has garnered approx. $4.5 million of winnings in a poker tournament.

If you folks would've done the same thing, then I would classify you the same way. However, if you would've toked an additional 1-2 percent of your winnings to the tip pool, then I for one, would've said, "wow, what a guy (gal), can you believe the extraordinary generosity of the winner!"

Your trying to reinforce in me the percentage of gratuity, which I accept, but that still doesn't change the outcome.

Until an overwhleming argument is shown to me, I will consider Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Yang, far-below-average tippers. This will not change my judgement of them as people, as they appear to be quite upstanding.

[/ QUOTE ]
I cannot pass this by, Jerry IS a very generous man and was only doing what he was advised to do. He has never been apart of something this large and had no clue on what was cutomary. PLEASE PLEASE do not lable him as a less-than-average tipper and a less-than-average person. He is far from both and I am positive that if he was given the FULL picture, he would have left a little more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he have left more? Were you adequately compensated during the WSOP or not?

[W brad]

The real question to me is - Who leaked the story about what advice Chris gave to Jerry?

If it was the dealer who was present in the private room where this ocuurred who leaked this story (to the press or to a forum or blog), then that would seem very unethical to me.

[Mitch Evans]

[ QUOTE ]
PLEASE PLEASE do not lable him as a less-than-average tipper and a less-than-average person. He is far from both and I am positive that if he was given the FULL picture, he would have left a little more.


[/ QUOTE ]

So can you give us the full picture? So far it looks like you make $60/hr (tokes) + $6.41 (dealing) an hour?

[Mitch Evans]

[ QUOTE ]
The real question to me is - Who leaked the story about what advice Chris gave to Jerry?

If it was the dealer who was present in the private room where this ocuurred who leaked this story (to the press or to a forum or blog), then that would seem very unethical to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It got leaked in this thread. Go back to the first page.

[pkrporcupine]

First to homer, Honestly I dont recall your OP and questions and I appologize for insulting you. This has turned into both a positive and a negative for all involved and quite overwhelming to me. As for numbers, as I have said a few pages back, I will not disclose my earnings nor that of my coworkers. Honestly any numbers given in this thread will do nothing but invite more bashing of myself and most of the posters here probably wont like the answer anyways. Just to make it clear, I wont know what the $$/down will be untill I get my check next week

....So is $30/down about what you are expecting?....
I will not tie myself down to that ammount. I know this may sound stupid to y'all but I always EXPECT $10/down, This way I can always stay positive about my pay and it is always more than that.

[Ramon Scott]

porcupine,

In one post, I claimed that Jerry was likely a far greater man than I.

I also stated that the situation didn't change my feelings on Mr. Yang and Mr. Ferguson as respectful gentlemen.

Having watched the PPV, I thought the hug at the end was a poignant moment.

Suz,

I tried to clean up my post.

I am embarrassed since I was a sportswriter and desk editor for 10 years. I also still own a sports news website - eastcountysports.com - so I try my best on spelling and style. But I am officially retired as a professional writer.