WSOP FINAL TABLE 2007

[MuppieDoll]

so....... I watched pretty much every hand of the final table... Phil Gordon and this other guy were doing the commentary... he's a nice guy.... knows alot about poker. He's a decent player... has a WPT title to his credit (which therefore allowed him to write books) .... he knows allot more then this Norman Chad ninny who does the ESPN productions -- he's never played a hand in his life and is just a Don Rickles wannabe with his bad jokes.

Phil had lots of pro's on doing commentary, etc. Hellmuth, Ferguson, the whole lot... all the "Good Old Boys Club" - the whole bunch who always pick the pro and never have anything positive to say about the amateur players. Always criticizing the play of the amateurs and predicting doom and their undoing. I'm telling you, you could have $74,999,999 chips and Phil Ivey could be sitting there with a $1 white chip, and these self-effacing terds would start saying how you are about to blow it and still pick Phil Ivey to outplay you.

This Yang guy - an amateur with like 2 years of playing experience won it. You should have heard them ripping into him. He's doing this wrong. He's doing that wrong. Oh he's raising too much. Oh he's raising too little. Oh he doesn't know what he's doing. This will come back to haunt him. Yada yada yada. In the meantime, he started with like 6th stack out of 9. Took down like 6 of the first 10 hands with pure aggression while the "pro's" just sat there shell-shocked. Within 45 minutes he had the chip lead. He took down like 11 of the first 20 pots. By the time they were down to 6 players (less then 3 hours in) he had over half the chips in play. You would think they would have something nice to say about him? Nay Nay.

So he wins the thing. Now, here's the kicker. I watched Moneymaker final table online. He was a walking luckbox. Continuously made wrong decisions and got bailed out. Did they hammer him? NOPE. Raymer... did they hammer him and death root him? NOPE (he played well). Hachem? No death rooting there even though he was luckier then a pile of [censored]. Jamie Gold? NOPE.... they let him slide. He was the luckbox extraordinaire. He kept getting his money in with the worst of it and just got hit in the face by the deck for 4 straight days. Every wrong decision paid off.

Now, they get this poor shlump ... fat Chinese guy.... who they have PREDETERMINED is not the type of person that they think will be a good champion (defined as: how much 'sex appeal' can this person have for the next 12 months and how much $$$ bling can this dude put in THEIR pockets?) Once they decide that he ain't the type, all they can do is criticize his play .... NOW HERE'S THE KICKER..... I WATCHED EVERY HAND OF THE FINAL TABLE. FACT OF THE MATTER IS: WHEN HE GOT HIS MONEY IN, HE ALMOST ALWAYS HAD THE BEST HAND. In fact, by the time they got down to 3 people, the other 2 goons who were still there were only there because he had them BOTH all in with the best hand and they sucked out on him.


THEY COULD CRITICIZE HIS STYLE ALL THEY FREAKING WANT... THE LOUTS... here's an example... just one of many.
They were rooting so hard for their pro boy Lee Watkinson. Yang raised preflop, Lee Watkinson pushes all in. After thinking about it for 2 days, Yang calls. He has A9. Lee Watkinson, the good ole boys pick had A4. YOU SHOULD HAVE HEARD THEM CARVING THIS GUY A NEW [censored] FOR WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS A "BAD CALL" !! Fact of the matter is, he had the best hand.

he did everything right ... he sensed that the pro's were playing too tight early and didn't want to mix it up... he confused them with unusually large and varied bets....and when he got a big stack, we used it like the sword of Damoclese and intimidated everyone with it -- if it was someone who they liked, they would have been jabbering about what a great job he is doing.

This guy will get NO CREDIT for winning this thing. The "pro's" will now use this guy as a reason why there should be some sort of change to the WSOP final table plot. Maybe a higher buy-in. Exclusion of some people. Or maybe, as I predict, the development of a new event ... a "pro only" event .. or an event for people who have already won bracelets -- all designed to keep this type of person, (WHO DOESN'T FIT THEIR PREDETERMINED PICTURE OF A CHAMPION, whose picture they don't think belongs on the wall with Doyle Buckteeth Brunson), out of it.... MARK MY WORDS.

[MuppieDoll]

correction... Watkinson had an A7 not and A4 .. .that was a typo

[MicroBob]

This forum is about internet-poker.
The WSOP/tourney-circuit forum is down the street.

Also, my understanding is that he truly was not a very good player and got quite lucky.
This seems to be the general opinion.
your ideas that he was criticized because he didn't have sex-appeal seem kind of weird.
If he played well people would have noticed it and not cared what he looked like.

[cobrakai111]

Why are you so angry?

[Backspin20]

Microbob has been quite angry as of late. Put some fangs on the "the cat"

[RoundGuy]

This is the Internet Gambling Forum.

I assume you intended to somehow work in an analysis of how this will affect online poker -- but you forgot.

If that was not your intention, then, WTF?!

[pariah8]

Actually from the little bit I've read he knocked out someone at the final table his J8 vs KJ all in preflop, are you telling me he always had the best of it, sounds like a pretty luckbox play when his 8 spiked on the turn.

He also won a lot of coinflips. Not to say that getting your money in with a coinflip is terrible, but just because your ak beats JJ and than your 88 beats AK (both hands that he won) doesn't mean you dominated anyone, it just means the deck hit you well. It's always said that to win a tournament you are going to have to win the coinflips.

Not saying the criticism of Yang is deserved or not and of course Gordon is going to be biased (probably jealous he isn't there instead), but to say Yang just pwned and was never lucky on the final table is also absurd, due to the amount of people in the ME he is lucky just to be there.

[verybaddd]

"On the last hand, with a huge mound of cash deposited on the felt, Lam moved all-in with an ace and queen of diamonds and Yang called with pocket eights.

When a queen, five and nine came on the flop, it looked like Lam, waving a Canadian flag, would be on the verge of a miracle comeback, making a pair of queens for the lead.

But a seven on the turn and a six on the river gave Yang a straight, sealing a win in which he dominated the final table from the moment the nine finalists sat down."

hitting runner runner to make a straight - i would consider that skill

[MICADOO]

The final table was a freakin donkfest and The only pro (LW) got sucked into the donkfest by going all in with Ace rag preflop against a donk call with a higher ace rag? The only good thing out of this final table, it will encourage more donk plays in tourney's now, by fish that watch this when it comes out on ESPN, and think the plays made at this final table are they way you win. LOL, I can't believe that Lee and Scotty thought they could bluff their tournament lives against these donks and not get called. Farha, Gus , any pro would of laid down against Lee and Scotty in those situations, but not these donks. Come one guys , you cant bluff these donkeys off any hand, especially when they hold ace rag pre flop, or post flop bottom pair, ever!! I figured Scotty and Lee would of know this, apparently not.

[grando]

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Also, my understanding is that he truly was not a very good player

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perhaps

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and got quite lucky.

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I'd very much disagree

at the beginning of the final table he was winning pots left right and center without showdown

he ran sick hot in his first 3 all ins, sure: making a pretty good call with A9 vs. watkinson (which was a bad push obv), an overpush with J8 that got called by KJ (a borderine bad call by villain), and some other hand I don't remember that wasn't terrible

throughout the table I was just recalling the super system ideology that, if you're stealing and stealing and stealing, then you're going to have to take some all ins with the worst of it - but he managed to get money in in very good spots (save the JT call which was clearly terrible)

after the supper break he was easily the best player at the table, and between the supper break until kravchenko was eliminated, he ran like total [censored] but still didn't lose many chips - as he was totally owning blinds and uncontested pots

lapoker17 was praising his play, and until 2 hours later I didn't realize how much he really was running the table

the other 3 were huge weak-tight nits that sucked - and the russian guy broke my heart...

[westhoff]

Some of my thoughts:

1. Yang did some good things and some bad things. He also had the best cards by far. They played less than 200 hands before heads-up and look at just the hands he had to show, QQ, JJ, AK, 88, A10, etc.

2. I don't remember seeing AA the entire time. Although I think Yang had it when Childs folded QQ face up.

3. I was really surprised at the amount of people that were shocked at Rahme's KK. Have any of you ever played with old donk-nits? Obviously easy to say now, but I thought that it was so obvious Rahme had KK here. Also this hand is just too funny. A-rag vs KK on AJ8 flop and they both think they have the nuts.

4. The fact that it took less than 200 hands with those stacks and the blinds barely increasing every two hours to get to heads-up is [censored] ridiculous. This thing should still be going. Same thing happened last year. Chip leader going out 9th with 85, lol.

5. Anybody that doesn't think that Kravchenko was the best player at the table doesn't know how to play poker.

6. Now we'll have more asians playing and playing more aggressively (if that's possible). This is awesome!!!

7. I can't believe I stayed glued to my TV for 15 hours for poker without hole cards. Well done ESPN!

[MyTurn2Raise]

Yang, by far, played the best of anyone at that final table

was he lucky? YES

but he also just played better

[MuppieDoll]

Since he was an internet player, and there are so many internet players now making final table appearances, I guess we can discuss it.

Im sure he was a much weaker player "over all" then all the top pros. But if it was Alan Cunningham doing what he did, all we would have heard during the broadcast was praise. Praise for what a genius he was for sensing the tight table early and exploiting it .. and genius for playing his big stack. All we heard though was what a bad player this guy was. Baloney. Again, except for one spot, he consistently outplayed the table and consistently got his money in with the better hand ... and the resuckout on the river was just that.. a RE suckout... the money was already in.

I think it will be interesting to see how this table program gets produced by ESPN. I guess it depends on how willing he is or isnt in terms of selling the product. I think it will depend on how much money they can make for the WORLD SERIES OF POKER franchise

[seke2]

All I know is that Yang opened a pot to 2.5 million preflop when the blinds were 120k/240k. I really don't care what else he did. Just knowing he did that even once is enough to know he's not a good player.

[MyTurn2Raise]

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5. Anybody that doesn't think that Kravchenko was the best player at the table doesn't know how to play

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cuz limp-folding is good?

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
"On the last hand, with a huge mound of cash deposited on the felt, Lam moved all-in with an ace and queen of diamonds and Yang called with pocket eights.

When a queen, five and nine came on the flop, it looked like Lam, waving a Canadian flag, would be on the verge of a miracle comeback, making a pair of queens for the lead.

But a seven on the turn and a six on the river gave Yang a straight, sealing a win in which he dominated the final table from the moment the nine finalists sat down."

hitting runner runner to make a straight - i would consider that skill

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is silly. Do you see why?

[FireStorm]

Out of curiosity, to the OP: What did Hachem do that was so "lucky"? Other than Qd7d, which he shoved over a megadonk, Hachem was not in bad shape in a hand the entire ME set of televised hands.

As stated above, I'm in agreement that Rahme's KK was fairly transparent. Exactly the way you would expect a tight older player to misplay Kings.

OP actually has a decent point, albeit poorly stated. Announcers give positive accolades to pros even though they misplay hands, and then blast amateurs for the same moves.

[gisb0rne]

Reread your post and you'll see why he was a luckbox. The guy had a better hand every time someone played back at him. Who couldn't win with that kind of luck? You get an Ax every other hand and then when someone happens to reraise you have JJ. You're heads up playing every hand and raising 75% of the time, you get reraised and boom! you happen to have 88. Or the small stack raises all-in from the small blind and what do you have? Not 84o. Not J6s. Nope, you have A9.

The guy was destined to win. He did make many horrible plays, but when your opponents get no cards and you get lots of cards you can get away with it.

[westhoff]

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5. Anybody that doesn't think that Kravchenko was the best player at the table doesn't know how to play

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cuz limp-folding is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, yes, it can be. Ever read No-Limit Holdem Theory and Practice?

[grando]

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5. Anybody that doesn't think that Kravchenko was the best player at the table doesn't know how to play

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cuz limp-folding is good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, yes, it can be. Ever read No-Limit Holdem Theory and Practice?

[/ QUOTE ]

kravchenko played a great aggressive shortstack, but as an average stack he was a weak-tight fish

[Jasper109]

I think the jury is still out when it comes to how Yang played.

Once we see what king of hands he didn't have to show down in the first couple of orbits it will be more apparent.

If he wasn't completely hit by the deck at the beginning and made a few sick bluffs to build his stack I will have a much higher opinion of him.

Once he got the chip lead he made some mistakes, but overall he played quite well IMO.

[Jasper109]

Probably a stupid question, but I've often wondered about this.

How good of a player do you have to be to win a 5000+ field tournament like this given the mixture of donks, decent players, and pros.

Say a 1 is a player who knows hand ranking but has never played hold'em, a 5 is a player who has read HOH and can beat Stars 4.40 180 man SNGs for a 20% ROI, and a 10 is Phil Ivey.

My guess is somewhere around a 6 or 7, but I suspect it could be lower.

[DJSHAD0W]

I think he played really well + made some sick calls.

But the moves that most people gave him a hard time about are good IMO... like the A9 call vs Watkinson (it's not like noone ever restole with anything worse than A high)
or the resteal with J8s - where IMO theguy calling all his chips off with KJ is more questionable then Yang

Just my 0.02$

[gsolis]

[ QUOTE ]
where IMO theguy calling all his chips off with KJ is more questionable then Yang

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I agree here - Gordon kept yammering about how the best three players at the table got knocked out 1,2,3.

so this guy, third best at the table, thought it was a good idea to value-raise his KJo into the calling station chipleader?? i dont mind his calling off but why didnt he just open-push?

I liked Kravchenko but thought there was too much open-raising - > fold to a Yang rr from the short stacks.

[sixsixtie]

What about the AT vs KK hand ? That was fairly terrible by Yang

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the AT vs KK hand ? That was fairly terrible by Yang

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it wasn't. It was fairly standard. He reraised from the sb against a active russian who opened in the btn and when the Alex pushed, Yang was getting 2 to 1 to call. Fairly standard call there.

[Todd Terry]

I haven't finished watching the FT, but I've watched every hand for the first 13 hours of the broadcast. I thought Yang played phenomenally well. He dominated, he was aggressive, he raised and reraised and stole virtually every pot, and then got his money in good whenever it mattered. He was unreadable, both physically and in terms of his betting patterns. Did he get lucky and hit by the deck to some extent? Of course, as has everyone who has ever won a final table.

When Phil Gordon tried to criticizing Yang for opening for too much, Phil Hellmuth jumped in and said that's exactly what you should do with a big chip lead, which was an interesting thought. Gordon's constant belittling criticism of Yang was appalling. The A9 was not a horrific call, it was IMO a very good call, both because Yang had to know his image was superloose, and because it sent a message to the rest of the table that if you come over the top you're going to get called, which tightened them up even more, which allowed to run them over even more. The KQ call which Gordon thought was horrible was standard and uninteresting. Well done, Mr. Yang.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably a stupid question, but I've often wondered about this.

How good of a player do you have to be to win a 5000+ field tournament like this given the mixture of donks, decent players, and pros.

Say a 1 is a player who knows hand ranking but has never played hold'em, a 5 is a player who has read HOH and can beat Stars 4.40 180 man SNGs for a 20% ROI, and a 10 is Phil Ivey.

My guess is somewhere around a 6 or 7, but I suspect it could be lower.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on those descriptions and the effect of luck, 5 is plenty good enough, even a 4.

[shmergle]

"Silly" is being charitable

[BenTurpen]

[ QUOTE ]
The final table was a freakin donkfest and The only pro (LW) got sucked into the donkfest by going all in with Ace rag preflop against a donk call with a higher ace rag? The only good thing out of this final table, it will encourage more donk plays in tourney's now, by fish that watch this when it comes out on ESPN, and think the plays made at this final table are they way you win. LOL, I can't believe that Lee and Scotty thought they could bluff their tournament lives against these donks and not get called. Farha, Gus , any pro would of laid down against Lee and Scotty in those situations, but not these donks. Come one guys , you cant bluff these donkeys off any hand, especially when they hold ace rag pre flop, or post flop bottom pair, ever!! I figured Scotty and Lee would of know this, apparently not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much my stance on the final after watching every hand. The play was just so ridonkulous. This is by far, BY FAR, and I have watched 5 live now, worst ME final table in that time span. You would think donks can only make it so far through a 6,300+ field, but obviously not. Just mind boggling how bad the play was.

Having said that, Yang deserved to win.

Kravchenko was easily the best player and watching Hilm go out 9th with 85 still with 15mil was awesome.

[Jasper109]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The final table was a freakin donkfest and The only pro (LW) got sucked into the donkfest by going all in with Ace rag preflop against a donk call with a higher ace rag? The only good thing out of this final table, it will encourage more donk plays in tourney's now, by fish that watch this when it comes out on ESPN, and think the plays made at this final table are they way you win. LOL, I can't believe that Lee and Scotty thought they could bluff their tournament lives against these donks and not get called. Farha, Gus , any pro would of laid down against Lee and Scotty in those situations, but not these donks. Come one guys , you cant bluff these donkeys off any hand, especially when they hold ace rag pre flop, or post flop bottom pair, ever!! I figured Scotty and Lee would of know this, apparently not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much my stance on the final after watching every hand. The play was just so ridonkulous. This is by far, BY FAR, and I have watched 5 live now, worst ME final table in that time span. You would think donks can only make it so far through a 6,300+ field, but obviously not. Just mind boggling how bad the play was.

Having said that, Yang deserved to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you start with probably 4500 donks in the field they will eliminate each other and there has to be a few of them left with all of the chips.

As the long as the fields continue to be this large the chances of a very good player winning the main event will continue to be extremely low.

[BenTurpen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The final table was a freakin donkfest and The only pro (LW) got sucked into the donkfest by going all in with Ace rag preflop against a donk call with a higher ace rag? The only good thing out of this final table, it will encourage more donk plays in tourney's now, by fish that watch this when it comes out on ESPN, and think the plays made at this final table are they way you win. LOL, I can't believe that Lee and Scotty thought they could bluff their tournament lives against these donks and not get called. Farha, Gus , any pro would of laid down against Lee and Scotty in those situations, but not these donks. Come one guys , you cant bluff these donkeys off any hand, especially when they hold ace rag pre flop, or post flop bottom pair, ever!! I figured Scotty and Lee would of know this, apparently not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much my stance on the final after watching every hand. The play was just so ridonkulous. This is by far, BY FAR, and I have watched 5 live now, worst ME final table in that time span. You would think donks can only make it so far through a 6,300+ field, but obviously not. Just mind boggling how bad the play was.

Having said that, Yang deserved to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you start with probably 4500 donks in the field they will eliminate each other and there has to be a few of them left with all of the chips.

As the long as the fields continue to be this large the chances of a very good player winning the main event will continue to be extremely low.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, but maybe just a couple could squeek through.. No? I would have said LW and Hilm were going to be quality players, but to see how they went broke was ridiculous. Kravchenko was the only player worth a [censored].

[vixticator]

About Lee Watkinson, later in his interview he said he was not surprised that Yang called with A9. So, knowing this before he pushes with A7... WTF? He's a 55/45 underdog to Yang's calling range assuming he calls with any broadway, any A4+, any PP. That push was donktastic.

[BenTurpen]

What was the raise from Yang when Watkinson pushed? 1mil, so he was going to pick up 1.5mil in the pot and have about 11.5 instead of 10 if Yang folds?