NL 25: did I play these combo draws right?

[Pokerdemic]

I recently switched to cash games. I read Tien's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7828437&page=0&vc=&PHPSE SSID=#Post7828437). If I understand correctly, he talks about shoving when you have a big combo draw that's ~50/50 to hit in order to pick up some FE. Here are two hands where I tried. Did I play these right? Any comments?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $12.75
BB: $24.75
UTG: $56.45
CO: $76.05
Hero (BTN): $24.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.25, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.00</font>, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.75

Flop: ($4) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $0.75</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $2.25

Turn: ($10) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $20.60</font>,


Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $29.20
BB: $31.15
UTG: $27.75
Hero (MP): $24.05
CO: $13.15
BTN: $10.30

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.00</font>, Hero calls $1.00, CO calls $1.00, BTN folds, SB calls $0.90, BB folds

Flop: ($4.25) J/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $1.00</font>, UTG calls $1.00, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, CO folds, SB calls $2.00, UTG folds

Turn: ($11.25) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $20.05</font>

[Gullanian]

Hand 1 I just take the free card, I mean it's better than busting for no reason.

[gedanken]

whoops! hand 1 you're not 50/50 on the turn -- you'll only get 1 more card with 15 outs. 15/46 = ??? your flush outs aren't even clean, as he could have a better draw.

take the free card, or make a 2/3 psb to see if he lets go now -- you'll make more on a successful river if you hit, and you won't lose anything if you miss.

also, note that the turn wasn't particularly terrifying. Your overbet just looks scared, and you'll get called by everything better than AQ.

In hand 2 you've got 9 clubs + 3 other tens = 12 outs, plus maybe a simple ace will do it. a better place to shove, if you'd done it on the flop. After the turn, you're only about 25% to have the best hand in the end.

What you really want is a 2-way straight + high 4-flush on the flop.

[UptownExpress]

Hand 1

1. Preflop looks fine
2. I don't like your flop raise with 9 high at all, I don't think you have very much fold equity four handed when you are giving utg great odds. just call flop if you feel lucky or raise bigger.
3. I'm not sure why you are overbet shoving here. Is it because if u bet pot and get called and miss u will be in a horrible river spot? I don't think that's a good enough reason so i'm interested what your thought process is for shoving turns in both hands because check calling or check shoving looks better to me because u have a chance at a free card.

[filsteal]

The general idea of the combo draws is that ideally you want to get AI with them on the FLOP, not necessarily the turn.

In both of these hands, you need to raise more on the flop. I'd make it at least $4.50 total in Hand 1, and at least $6 total in Hand 2.

Also, after making a real flop raise, check behind on the turn in Hand 1.

[Pokerdemic]

So the real problem here is that I am retarded. I was doing the math from the flop and playing from the turn.

[filsteal]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1

1. Preflop looks fine
2. I don't like your flop raise with 9 high at all, I don't think you have very much fold equity four handed when you are giving utg great odds. just call flop if you feel lucky or raise bigger.
3. I'm not sure why you are overbet shoving here. Is it because if u bet pot and get called and miss u will be in a horrible river spot? I don't think that's a good enough reason so i'm interested what your thought process is for shoving turns in both hands because check calling or check shoving looks better to me because u have a chance at a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

His flop raise in Hand 1 is basically no different than a standard continuation bet. Villain bet $0.75 into a $4 pot, which for most villains actually shows more weakness than checking. (And if not, then I make a note for later against this villain.)

[qwertyui9]

Hand 1 i check turn throughand take the free card.

Hand 2 is a much scarier board for opponents to be faced with and pushing is far better than the first imo

[UptownExpress]

[ QUOTE ]
So the real problem here is that I am retarded. I was doing the math from the flop and playing from the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

not entirely because in hand 1 you didn't have a draw until the turn so your play is in fact not so bad (oestr8 flush draw is not that far behind anything) it's just that usually when u overbet shove it's on the flop and u have a huge draw.

[filsteal]

[ QUOTE ]
So the real problem here is that I am retarded. I was doing the math from the flop and playing from the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not retarded. Obviously it's better to get AI on the flop with a big draw, but it can be okay on the turn too against the right kind of opponents.

[Pokerdemic]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1

2. I don't like your flop raise with 9 high at all, I don't think you have very much fold equity four handed when you are giving utg great odds. just call flop if you feel lucky or raise bigger.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know. but it was a real passive table and every cbet I put out thus far had been folded too. Still probably a dumb move with 4 left in the pot

[filsteal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1

2. I don't like your flop raise with 9 high at all, I don't think you have very much fold equity four handed when you are giving utg great odds. just call flop if you feel lucky or raise bigger.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know. but it was a real passive table and every cbet I put out thus far had been folded too. Still probably a dumb move with 4 left in the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your raise here was fine, except that it needed to be bigger. And it's even finer if the table was folding constantly to c-bets.

[gedanken]

I didn't say retarded, did I? Now I feel bad. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Here's a hand I ran across in my history the other day. Didn't think I'd have a reason to post it, but here's my idea of a good shove with a draw. Feel free to criticize, I am a retard.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, (8 handed)

MP1 (149)
MP2 (16)
CO (437.5)
Button (114.5)
SB (164.5)
Hero (159)
UTG (101)
UTG+1 (144.5)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls 1BB, MP1 calls 1BB, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls 1BB, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets 1BB</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to 5BB</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to 20BB</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to 73BB</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to 158BB</font>...

Yeeha! 450BB+ pot if they call. I can't watch.

[UptownExpress]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say retarded, did I? Now I feel bad. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Here's a hand I ran across in my history the other day. Didn't think I'd have a reason to post it, but here's my idea of a good shove with a draw. Feel free to criticize, I am a retard.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, (8 handed)

MP1 (149)
MP2 (16)
CO (437.5)
Button (114.5)
SB (164.5)
Hero (159)
UTG (101)
UTG+1 (144.5)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls 1BB, MP1 calls 1BB, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls 1BB, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets 1BB</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to 5BB</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to 20BB</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to 73BB</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to 158BB</font>...

Yeeha! 450BB+ pot if they call. I can't watch.

[/ QUOTE ]

do not ever post in BB

[creamfillin]

What is going on in hand one on the flop? Raise should be bigger if you're doing this.