what is the best way to play against lp easily stackable villians?

[jerryf1914]

i am always confused as to how to play against these players. it seems i want to be in as many pots as possible with them in position, so a 30+vpip sounds like it would be a good thing right? also, is there a point to raising pf? don't i want to see flops as cheap as possible and then exploit them when i hit my hand? as opposed to raising, missing the flop, and being unable to sucessfully cbet them which would mean losing 4+bbs instead of just 1bb.

[Lego05]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you in LP or are they in LP?

30+ViP never sounds good to me...unless you are a very good player...but you'de b playing much higher were that the case.

IMO if it is right to raise pre-flop there is always a reason.

Also IMO most perople fold to c-bets a good amount of the time. Do you have poker tracker nd pkerace hud....look at fold to c-bet stats.


I would suggest posting specific hands...including reads and stats. You will get better responses that way. And if you post enough of them in different situations and against different villian types and question people's responses when you don't understand I think you will start learning. Just don't start too many threads in too short a period cause it may overload you but more liekly people may stop responding especially if they don't know you. I always get a little nervous about that when I post like 4 or more hands in a short period of time.

[jerryf1914]

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I'm not sure what you mean. Are you in LP or are they in LP?

30+ViP never sounds good to me...unless you are a very good player...but you'de b playing much higher were that the case.

IMO if it is right to raise pre-flop there is always a reason.

Also IMO most perople fold to c-bets a good amount of the time. Do you have poker tracker nd pkerace hud....look at fold to c-bet stats.


I would suggest posting specific hands...including reads and stats. You will get better responses that way. And if you post enough of them in different situations and against different villian types and question people's responses when you don't understand I think you will start learning. Just don't start too many threads in too short a period cause it may overload you but more liekly people may stop responding especially if they don't know you. I always get a little nervous about that when I post like 4 or more hands in a short period of time.

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sorry i meant loose passive by lp it didn't fit in the title /images/graemlins/frown.gif

this is a pretty general question i'm not sure why specific hands would help. many many of the total stations call cbets all the time with bottom pair or air. i'm just wondering if its even worth it to raise pf. why not just hit your hand for 1bb and then go to work on them instead of blowing 4+bbs everytime you miss the flop

[Lego05]

Oh sry thought LP meant late position.

Ok...in the proper situations you still want to raise pre-flop because you are ahead of their range. They will still call with bottom pair when you hit top pair btw. Also most calling stations will still fold flop most of the time if they miss completely. Some of them may be susceptible to double barrels on turn. Others will call all streets with everything so you continue betting with a hand and stop without one.

I still think you will get better responses by posting specific hands and will learn more by identifying the differences in the hands and the differences in the responses. You will also learn by questionong people on why they responded what they did if they don't supply the reason.

[Waingro]

I don´t think you should overestimate your implied odds against these guys. So you found a 60 VP$IP guy that stacks off with tpnk+ everytime. Great! How often is he going to make tpnk+? Not often. To loose up a little in certain spots pf is probably a good idea, but don´t change your basic game.

[jerryf1914]

but it seems to me raising these players often is a -ev play because you are going to miss the flop most of the time and they aren't going to fold to your cbet whether they miss or not.

[Lego05]

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but it seems to me raising these players often is a -ev play because you are going to miss the flop most of the time and they aren't going to fold to your cbet whether they miss or not.

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There are very few players I have run into who fold to c-bets less then 50% of the time.

And even aginst them I know when I raise pre-flop I am ahead of their range. You may tighten up a bit pre-flop against these players, but you don't stop raising all together.

[jerryf1914]

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but it seems to me raising these players often is a -ev play because you are going to miss the flop most of the time and they aren't going to fold to your cbet whether they miss or not.

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There are very few players I have run into who fold to c-bets less then 50% of the time.

And even aginst them I know when I raise pre-flop I am ahead of their range. You may tighten up a bit pre-flop against these players, but you don't stop raising all together.

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i only play 10nl and there are many players who fold to cbets less than 50% of the time. they will call with any overcards they don't really seem to care much. so what ends up happening is when your cbet gets called you can't be certain your ace high is good to their king high so you just end up in a lot of marginal spots which result in a fold to their usually psb on the river.

it seems to be i'd be better off not even raising pf, waiting to hit somethingl and let them call me down with their king high and bluff the river.

[blackize]

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but it seems to me raising these players often is a -ev play because you are going to miss the flop most of the time and they aren't going to fold to your cbet whether they miss or not.

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Raising these players accomplishes three things:

1) Gets more money in with what is likely the best hand (so you should raise when you think you're ahead of their range)
2) Builds the pot so you can get their stack in. If you limp you need them to raise you or you need to be overbetting
3) Isolates the bad players so it is more likely their money goes to you

If they don't fold to cbets, don't cbet them. Just bet for value. If they are truly calling the flop with absolutely nothing every time, you can even bet ace high for value.

[jerryf1914]

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but it seems to me raising these players often is a -ev play because you are going to miss the flop most of the time and they aren't going to fold to your cbet whether they miss or not.

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Raising these players accomplishes three things:

1) Gets more money in with what is likely the best hand (so you should raise when you think you're ahead of their range)
2) Builds the pot so you can get their stack in. If you limp you need them to raise you or you need to be overbetting
3) Isolates the bad players so it is more likely their money goes to you

If they don't fold to cbets, don't cbet them. Just bet for value. If they are truly calling the flop with absolutely nothing every time, you can even bet ace high for value.


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betting ace high for value is so marginal it doesn't seem +ev at all

[blackize]

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betting ace high for value is so marginal it doesn't seem +ev at all

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No player calls 100% of cbets so you have a slight amount of fold equity even against calling stations. Add in the fact that ace high has a fairly strong likelihood of being the best hand and you've got a pretty clear bet. It's not purely for value, but it isn't a bluff either.

[Spanky1974]

Jerry,
I can't follow your line of thinking. Limping in with a lot of marginal hands and trying to hit a great flop IS loose-passive. You will miss hitting 2/3's of the time, and 2/3's of the time that you do hit, you will hit middle or bottom pair. Then you have your flopped hand, and will probably have to start calling flop cbets because you have middle pair with a bad kicker!

Playing TAG against fish is +EV. If you are having problems playing postflop against loose-passives or loose-agressives, tighten up your game, not start limping mediocre hands.