C-bets (and a VPIP question)

[spkid]

I'm new to NL and have a couple of questions if anyone has the time to help me out.

I've had no problem playing tight at limit and have carried that approach over to my NL game. The problem is that "tight's" evil half brother "weak" keeps trying to rear his ugly head. Specifically, C-betting against LAGs is giving me a problem.

I find that when LAGs see me playing 25/13 they call my raises and when no big cards hit the flop they automatically reraise my C-bet and have me sitting there with my AK (or other big pre-flop hand)feeling like a jackass. I don't always C-bet but I do it frequently enough that I get stuck in this situation with a LAG just daring me to call his reraise. Unless I actually have the big pair, I am screwed, and that's much more often that not. Now, I'm folding my busted hand and getting bet at even more on subsequent hands.

Anyway, I was wondering if there is any advice on how to play big cards when the flop misses against players who are just waiting for a no-high-card flop to bet at you or raise you since it happens so often.

Also, I've seen some LAGs at 40/20, 50/24, etc. bordering on maniac and they seem to do alright. Is there any concensus on how high the VPIP can get before even the best players can not profit playing so many hands?

Thanks very much to any replies!!

[Miyogi]

25/13 isn't that tight to be honest. If you are finding that you are getting played back at too much then first pray for a big pair, but then you can just check the hand to them or check behind. I found often that if you check behind and they check to you again even a small bet will get them to fold. Remember that at this point a scary card is great for you since they just checked twice. You can try this out of positino but it is a little harder to do.

[Lego05]

Well it's really hard to answer this question....you should probably post specific hands and see what peopler say.

And what you should really really really do is read the stickies here and in small stakes. Also readjust your pre-flop game.

Assuming 6max which is mostly what this forum deals with (although ur #'s preolly arent good at FR either) I don't like your numbers. They should be much closer together. You are probably limping a lot of ahnds you should be raising. And if you were raising them instead you may experience this problem less because your hand woul be more disguised.....also you have to understand that some people will call c-bets a lot (Poker tracker and pokerace hud help to recognize who does this) and in those cases some of them will fold to turn bets a lot and other are calling stations who you can value bet to death.


Edit: Miyogi's point about checking behind on flop and then betting turn when checked to (it's called a delayed continuation bet) can have merits at times....although I wouldn't use this play too much.

2nd edit: Actually also check this out also. It is pure gold and absolutely a resource to improve your game that will keep you busy for a ridiculously long time:

http://www.pr0crast.com/2+2.NL.Anthology.v1.htm

[Jer672]

Here is an example hand that I think he is talking about

50NL
100BB stacks
Assume both callers are LAGS

Hero is 16/10 (a little bit tighter than OP) with AK UTG

Hero raises to 2, 2 folds, MP calls, 2 folds, Button calls, both blinds fold.

Flop 9 4 2 rainbow
Pot 6.75

Hero...

is a c-bet here standard? whats the plan if we are called? (assuming fold if we bet and are raised)

Edit: just realized this is a FR hand but same idea

[Knuckles]

Thanks for posting that link Lego! There is a lot to work through in there.

Here`s an excellent post regarding CBetting.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...0&fpart=all (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=869832 0&page=0&fpart=all)

Are you open raising small/medium pps from any position ? I think it`s important, to balance our CBs and to stack with sets /images/graemlins/wink.gif. Also, I improved from getting played back at, since I worked on my betsizing.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for posting that link Lego! There is a lot to work through in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem. Thank pr0crast. He put the whole thing together and seems to have just started posting here again.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is an example hand that I think he is talking about

50NL
100BB stacks
Assume both callers are LAGS

Hero is 16/10 (a little bit tighter than OP) with AK UTG

Hero raises to 2, 2 folds, MP calls, 2 folds, Button calls, both blinds fold.

Flop 9 4 2 rainbow
Pot 6.75

Hero...

is a c-bet here standard? whats the plan if we are called? (assuming fold if we bet and are raised)

Edit: just realized this is a FR hand but same idea

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's what I'm saying. This is a full ring hand. Not to say you can't post it here. But if you do realize that 95%+ of all posters (and probably 100% of the best ones here) play 6 max and they may or may not have ever played full ring. So you can post here and you can get good advice, but you may also want to check out the full ring forum.

Anyway I think this flop is borderline. Were it a headsup pot I of course c-bet. Were it 3way as it is and a facecard instead of a 9 I definitely c-bet. Were it a T instead of a 9 I probably c-bet. Were the flop as it is, I was in position and they check to me I probably c-bet. As everything is I think it's very close and I'm not sure what I do. A lot of it probably depends on my opponents fold to c-bet %. It may also depend on how I feel at the moment.

[LastLife]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is an example hand that I think he is talking about

50NL
100BB stacks
Assume both callers are LAGS

Hero is 16/10 (a little bit tighter than OP) with AK UTG

Hero raises to 2, 2 folds, MP calls, 2 folds, Button calls, both blinds fold.

Flop 9 4 2 rainbow
Pot 6.75

Hero...

is a c-bet here standard? whats the plan if we are called? (assuming fold if we bet and are raised)

Edit: just realized this is a FR hand but same idea

[/ QUOTE ]


This should be a check 100% of the time. You are OOP to start. There are 2 people to act behind you. A pocket pair is most likly not going to fold to 1 bet here. This is a check and fold situation. If you are 3 way, unless you are in position, you should be betting only when you have something.

[infinite_loop]

What do you think they're raising your c-bets with? Air? A high? K high? I would be careful not to immediately always assume because they're LAGs they're raising you with nothing. But if you do see that pattern you might rather check-raise or even check-call/lead because a hand like AK on a ragged no-draw board is often ahead against such players. Just don't be predictable with your c-bets. Bad LAGs are spewing chips left and right. Just bet with a purpose in mind, not as a reflex.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is an example hand that I think he is talking about

50NL
100BB stacks
Assume both callers are LAGS

Hero is 16/10 (a little bit tighter than OP) with AK UTG

Hero raises to 2, 2 folds, MP calls, 2 folds, Button calls, both blinds fold.

Flop 9 4 2 rainbow
Pot 6.75

Hero...

is a c-bet here standard? whats the plan if we are called? (assuming fold if we bet and are raised)

Edit: just realized this is a FR hand but same idea

[/ QUOTE ]


If you are 3 way, unless you are in position, you should be betting only when you have something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooooh no...not quite. I'm not sure about FR....but in 6max this is definitely a false statement. (I would assume it's false in FR too but I'm not sure) Sure you should be checking a lot more, but you should still c-bet sometimes with nothing....IMO anyway.

[spkid]

Hey - The replies are great and appreciated! I have been reading alot of the material posted in the first few posts here and they are excellent (I'm referring to the anthology thing...) I haven't gotten through all of it though.

The last post on this thread (infinite loop) is what I'm really talking about. On occasion while having a tilting episode I have reraised the reraise all in with my AK nothing and was shown middle pair or he caught top pair with his 96os crap.

So the LAG would put me on two big cards (assume correctly that the majority of the time it was two unpaired cards) and if he catches ANY part of the flop he's willing to take me all the way with it.

Then when it starts to become that he is consistently calling my raises and betting or reraising me on the ragged flop I have to assume that sometimes he's reraising with air and sometime he caught a piece of the flop or better.

The problem is that now I'm on my heels and while he is winning some hands after missing his flop, I'm winning none of my hands where I miss the flop.

By the way, anybody care to take a shot at the second part of my question how high does VPIP have to get before even the better players can't turn a profit?

Thanks again!

[infinite_loop]

With that history I would still be careful about assuming they're re-popping with air. At low stakes even crazy LAGs usually have "something" when they re-pop, whether that's a draw or bottom pair, etc. A lot of players at these stakes like to call you down when they pair. But this guy obviously likes to raise his pairs 'cause he either just pays attention to his cards and the board or he's the "bluff detector" type. Just try to play position on these people because they'll spew their badly kicked pairs all the time. OOP, don't be afraid to pitch some hands 'cause you'll get plenty of spots against them. Pushing a raise with A high is not going to work because you've now made his style profitable.