Legal workaround/possible $$ laundering for US players?

[wadea]

I'm in the US with no plans to leave. I have non-US friends. If:

1. I send Friend a check or give him cash when I see him.
2. Friend opens an account at FTP under his name.
3. Friend gives me the password to the FTP account.
4. I play and win on this account.
5. Winnings are withdrawn as a check to Friend.
6. Friend deposits check at his bank.
7. Friend writes me a check for the winnings or gives it to me in cash when he sees me.

I'm pretty sure this constitutes money laundering. Tell me if I'm wrong. The REAL question is: Would I get caught? What would be the penalty? Assume all transactions involve under $1000 USD. Does anything change if I just played on Friend's existing account and we kept track of who won what (assume absolute trust and organization)?

[wadea]

As a note, I'm not planning to actually do this. I realize that if I had planned to do it, posting about it on 2p2 would be a horrible idea.

[TheJokerIsWild]

Ummmm...why don't you just open your own Full Tilt account? Seems a lot easier?

[wadea]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummmm...why don't you just open your own Full Tilt account? Seems a lot easier?

[/ QUOTE ]

How will I cash out the winnings? My understanding is that US banks will not process checks from online gaming sites. Or transfers. Is that wrong? Can I transfer money from my FTP account directly to another person's bank? I guess my real question becomes this: As a US player under the current law, how do I cash out my online poker winnings?

[DMoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummmm...why don't you just open your own Full Tilt account? Seems a lot easier?

[/ QUOTE ]

How will I cash out the winnings? My understanding is that US banks will not process checks from online gaming sites. Or transfers. Is that wrong? Can I transfer money from my FTP account directly to another person's bank? I guess my real question becomes this: As a US player under the current law, how do I cash out my online poker winnings?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well if you couldn't, your friend couldn't either, right? Also you're wrong to think that banks won't process checks from online gaming sites. Most of them won't even know. I don't know about most sites, but FTP only allows bank wire transfers that are >$20k right now.

The easiest thing to do is set up an account in your name and withdraw by check.

[wadea]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if you couldn't, your friend couldn't either, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, my friend would not be a US resident and would have a bank account set up in another country (say Thailand), so the laws would be different.

If I took a check and it was denied by my bank, what then? Could I sign it over to a foreign friend and have them deposit the 3rd party check or just redeposit in into FTP and try something else?

[DMoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if you couldn't, your friend couldn't either, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, my friend would not be a US resident and would have a bank account set up in another country (say Thailand), so the laws would be different.

If I took a check and it was denied by my bank, what then? Could I sign it over to a foreign friend and have them deposit the 3rd party check or just redeposit in into FTP and try something else?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you would have trouble with it being denied (I don't think there have been any cases so far with FTP checks having problems depositing), but you should e-mail FTP and see what they say.

Also, FWIW, I requested my first check ever a few days ago and it got approved today. I'll see what happens when I receive it and try to deposit it.

[4_2_it]

My bank had no problem cashing the FT check I got 2 weeks ago.

[PLO8FaceKilla]

are you guys paying taxes for these checks?

or just hoping you can get away with it?

I'm just curious how many people actually pay the taxes that we are supposed to

[oldbookguy]

given the Neteller thing, I would hope we are all paying, argh......

obg

[DMoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
are you guys paying taxes for these checks?

or just hoping you can get away with it?

I'm just curious how many people actually pay the taxes that we are supposed to

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm withdrawing three $5K checks. I plan on paying taxes on it.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious how many people actually pay the taxes that we are supposed to

[/ QUOTE ]

I am. Given how the government feels about us, it seems very prudent.

[Unabridged]

this sounds good, especially if your friend is in a country that doesnt care about gambling winnings. the only weak link is the money getting from your friend to you, either you are going to have to be bringing $1000s in cash into the US over and over or you have to be cashing international checks for $1000s. i dont think you will be caught though, or at least have a lot lower chance of being caught than opening an account with your US bank account.

you may also have to worry about the pokersite thinking the account has been hacked if you are using it from different countries.

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummmm...why don't you just open your own Full Tilt account? Seems a lot easier?

[/ QUOTE ]

How will I cash out the winnings? My understanding is that US banks will not process checks from online gaming sites. Or transfers. Is that wrong? Can I transfer money from my FTP account directly to another person's bank? I guess my real question becomes this: As a US player under the current law, how do I cash out my online poker winnings?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh. Where do people hear these things?

[ALav10]

Just as a heads up... If you use Citizens Bank, FTP warns you that your check may not go through. I use them and mine did, so it seems like no worries.

But, they advised to try to go to the bank that issued the check. This is probably good advice for anyone, since you could just get cash from the issuing bank.

And pay taxes.

[AbreuTime]

My FTP check did not have "Full Tilt" anywhere on the check. It was issued through a major US based bank. No problems with depositing it. There are threads in the Zoo (Internet Gambling) about this.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
How will I cash out the winnings? My understanding is that US banks will not process checks from online gaming sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. The UIGEA doesn't have any prohibition against receiving money from gaming sites, it focus is strictly on funding (and that only electronically). Getting money out isn't a problem. I've received several checks from FTP and had no problems depositing them at my bank. If you have a problem change banks.


[ QUOTE ]
Or transfers.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is different since it is electronic.

[MiltonFriedman]

Stop trying to think of such things. You are not any good at it.

1. You can play at FTP yourself, so enjoy it .... without trying to plan elaborate schemes for "what-if" scenarios, as you have little apparent talent in that area.

2. Stick to poker. Work to ensure it remains available, call your elected representatives and lobby. There are plenty of suggestions in the weekly action plans you could do.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious how many people actually pay the taxes that we are supposed to

[/ QUOTE ]

I am. Given how the government feels about us, it seems very prudent.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a general tax rule (not just in regards to poker) hiding income is never a good idea. Even if you ignore the morality of cheating on your taxes (which you shouldn't be doing) understating income is something that, if caught, you can never justify as "an honest mistake" and will pay the price. As the Netteller debacle is showing us there are lots of ways the IRS might discover this income that you've never thought of.

If you want to take an aggressive approach to minimizing your taxes go right up to the line in taking deductions. (No, that doesn't mean claiming your dog as a dependent, that's going over the line /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[ktulu22]

Morality? Yea I should be perfectly willing to hand over my hard earned money and give it to guys like Bill Frist so he can tell me what to do. You guys slay me

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
Morality? Yea I should be perfectly willing to hand over my hard earned money and give it to guys like Bill Frist so he can tell me what to do. You guys slay me

[/ QUOTE ]

And you wonder why poker players have a bad image.

[tvta]

is it not the aggressive deductions that flag an audit??? im no expert on taxes, but if the goal is to keep money from uncle sam....would simply not reporting anything under $5k or $10k (whatever the limit is on getting flagged) be more successful than putting yourself in a position to receive an audit.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
is it not the aggressive deductions that flag an audit??? im no expert on taxes, but if the goal is to keep money from uncle sam....would simply not reporting anything under $5k or $10k (whatever the limit is on getting flagged) be more successful than putting yourself in a position to receive an audit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should probably throw out a disclaimer that I'm not a tax expert either and all of this is my opinion although based on hearing lots of tax stories over many years as well as what I've been told by professionals. My statement was based more on risk/reward, not avoiding an audit. If avoiding an audit that is your primary goal take the standard deduction and report all income. My goal is to have my taxes be what I owe, but not a penney more.

I advised going "up to the line" on deductions. Where that line is may sometimes be tough to determine. If you're audited whether you went over the line in close decisions may depend on factors you can't anticipate (mood of the auditor, quality of your explanation, etc). But if the auditor disallows a deduction the repercussions will be relatively minor. (This assumes that it appears you took the deduction in good faith and it was a close call. In other words you thought you went up to the line and the auditor thought you just slipped over it.)

The odds of the IRS finding unreported income might be low, but over the last 10-20 years they've been putting a lot of resources into tools to find it. The odds might not be as low as you think. If you don't have a bank account of any kind, pay for everything in cash, have no investments, and somehow cash your checks from poker sites without raising any flags you might be safe. If your poker income is minimal relative to your other income you might be safe. If your lifestyle is well below your actual means (in line with what the IRS thinks you make rather than what you really do) then you might be safe. Unreported income if it can be proven has no defense.

[driller]

Ok. You pay taxes on your winnings, not on your withdrawals.

Don't know about FT, but the checks from PokerStars are from a US account and look like an ordinary check from a U.S. business. For a bank to check out every check that looked like this would swamp them completely. In any case, given the lack of written regulations, I doubt that it is illegal for them to credit the amount of the check to your account.

[PokeReader]

Look, what you are theoretically discussing, would run into FBAR, money laundering, tax evasion problems, and probably some I haven't thought of yet. I suggest you just get your own account and suffer though the increased inconviences of cashing. If you get caught under your scenario, they would be able to throw the book at you. It is much safer that way.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
Morality? Yea I should be perfectly willing to hand over my hard earned money and give it to guys like Bill Frist so he can tell me what to do. You guys slay me

[/ QUOTE ]

Every working man that collects a pay check or busines owners does...Why should "we" as poker players be any different..I am proud to pay my taxes...

[oldbookguy]

well put! perhaps we can incorp. this position into one of Engineer's Action Threads!

We are poker players and tax paying voting Americans.

obg

[NeBlis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Morality? Yea I should be perfectly willing to hand over my hard earned money and give it to guys like Bill Frist so he can tell me what to do. You guys slay me

[/ QUOTE ]

Every working man that collects a pay check or busines owners does...Why should "we" as poker players be any different..I am proud to pay my taxes...

[/ QUOTE ]


I really hope you are leveling here.

otherwise go back to games you understand

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n211/mbibb01/retard_ninja.jpg

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
Morality? Yea I should be perfectly willing to hand over my hard earned money and give it to guys like Bill Frist and Ted Kennedy so they can tell me what to do. You guys slay me

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. Handing over your hard-earned money to either side of the aisle's agenda is painful. We'll make a libertarian out of you yet. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Even if you ignore the morality of cheating on your taxes

ROFLMAO. The United States was born from a tax revolt. Google "HMS Gaspee" to learn how freedom loving people treat the taxman.

"I'll tell you how it's gonna be
One part for you, nineteen for me, I'm the taxman"

-John Lennon/Paul McCartney

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
well put! perhaps we can incorp. this position into one of Engineer's Action Threads!

We are poker players and tax paying voting Americans.

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Posturing for or against taxes aside, the real issue is the punitive way the IRS treats gambling income. Break-even or losing online poker players who do not itemize deductions technically owe taxes on their poker "income."

And if online gambling is legalized and regulated, they'll all get a bill from Uncle for taxes they didn't think they owed.

That's real battle, and everybody (usually kids with little life experience) either ignore that point, or gloss it over with sanctimonious and ignorant "pay your taxes" comments.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
Posturing for or against taxes aside, the real issue is the punitive way the IRS treats gambling income. Break-even or losing online poker players who do not itemize deductions technically owe taxes on their poker "income."

And if online gambling is legalized and regulated, they'll all get a bill from Uncle for taxes they didn't think they owed.

That's real battle, and everybody (usually kids with little life experience) either ignore that point, or gloss it over with sanctimonious and ignorant "pay your taxes" comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got no idea how old you are or what you'd consider a kid, but since I was one of those who have made "sanctimonious and ignorant 'pay your taxes' comments" in this thread I feel obligated to say that I'm no kid without real life experience. I'd venture a guess that I'm at least twice as old as the average poster on this board.

However your point about how gambling winnings are treated is a valid one. Those who wouldn't have enough deductions to benefit by itemizing without poker will pay more in taxes than if they could just net wins from losses. Those who can itemize, but have too much in gross winnings will run into issues due to the alternative minimum tax. And those who get around the latter by filing as a pro will have to pay self employment tax. IMO all but the last of the 3 possibilities are inequitable.

I won't get so sanctimonious as to say everyone should follow every law to the letter. But not doing so has potential consequences. I'd bet the sanctimonious "pay your taxes" comments come from the old as much, if not more so, than from the young. Maybe that is based on more experience weighing consequences. Maybe it's because we're weak-tight nits. Decide for yourself.

[yahboohoo]

I can't believe this thread made it to four pages. And now, it's so completely scattered, it's covering every topic in the forum.

While I think the OP's suggestion is kind of silly, I don't think it's technically illegal, as long as he pays his taxes.

Money laundering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering) is a deliberate attempt to disguise the source of illegal income. The legality of the OP's suggestion depends on your position about the legality of playing online poker.

If the OP wants to route his bankroll through 4 banks and 10 people on its way to and from an online site, it doesn't mean he's money laundering. The legal standards are (1) was the money derived illegally, and (2) is he trying to conceal the source. The fact that it's labor-intensive and kind of pointless is beside the point.

The tax evasion question applies whether he transfers the money once or a hundred times, or never at all.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Morality? Yea I should be perfectly willing to hand over my hard earned money and give it to guys like Bill Frist so he can tell me what to do. You guys slay me

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone else has to.

This is a democracy; the government spending plans and the means of collecting taxes for the spending was jointly decided, for better or for worse.

[Unabridged]

TheEngineer, BigALK

what exactly would the government have to start doing that would make you stop paying taxes?

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
TheEngineer, BigALK

what exactly would the government have to start doing that would make you stop paying taxes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country. I believe in most cases there is more to be gained working within the system to make it better than unilaterally deciding that I'm going to disobey the law (at least in the case of taxes).

However I want to be clear on two points just in case I haven't been thus far.

1) I'll do everything to minimize my taxes while staying within the tax law. I don't want to give up any more of my hard earned cash to the taxman than I legally have to.

2) I'm not totally opposed to an act of civil disobedience (whether the authority is government or other) however I'm going to consider the risk (likelihood of repercussions and severity of such) and reward (how much difference am I likely to make) before doing so. In fact my friends, family, and former bosses /images/graemlins/smile.gif would probably be amazed that I'm taking such an apparently hardline conformist stance on anything.

In the case of taxes my not paying them will only expose me to the potential repercussions. I'd have to continue breaking the law to continue saving the money each year. The chance of changing the system taking this approach is nil while my chances of getting caught would just rise. The amount saved, for me, isn't worth the risk.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
TheEngineer, BigALK

what exactly would the government have to start doing that would make you stop paying taxes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't feel I owed taxes ONLY if I were taxed without representation. Otherwise, that's our system. If I hated what America was doing that much, I'd renounce my citizenship and move somewhere more to my liking, rather than expecting others to pay my share.

It may be time to move this conversation to Politics.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny. I posted my reply before reading yours.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny. I posted my reply before reading yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

That jumped out at me too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Posturing for or against taxes aside, the real issue is the punitive way the IRS treats gambling income. Break-even or losing online poker players who do not itemize deductions technically owe taxes on their poker "income."

And if online gambling is legalized and regulated, they'll all get a bill from Uncle for taxes they didn't think they owed.

That's real battle, and everybody (usually kids with little life experience) either ignore that point, or gloss it over with sanctimonious and ignorant "pay your taxes" comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got no idea how old you are or what you'd consider a kid, but since I was one of those who have made "sanctimonious and ignorant 'pay your taxes' comments" in this thread I feel obligated to say that I'm no kid without real life experience. I'd venture a guess that I'm at least twice as old as the average poster on this board.

However your point about how gambling winnings are treated is a valid one. Those who wouldn't have enough deductions to benefit by itemizing without poker will pay more in taxes than if they could just net wins from losses. Those who can itemize, but have too much in gross winnings will run into issues due to the alternative minimum tax. And those who get around the latter by filing as a pro will have to pay self employment tax. IMO all but the last of the 3 possibilities are inequitable.

I won't get so sanctimonious as to say everyone should follow every law to the letter. But not doing so has potential consequences. I'd bet the sanctimonious "pay your taxes" comments come from the old as much, if not more so, than from the young. Maybe that is based on more experience weighing consequences. Maybe it's because we're weak-tight nits. Decide for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Points well taken. The "kids" portion of my comment was off-the-cuff and a result of being annoyed. I am 56, BTW.

It is good to see that you understand the inequities of the tax structure and the downside of those will harm online poker if and when it is legalized.

Many recreation players who break even or lose a little have no idea how gambling income is treated.

If legalized and regulated, many will not report their wins/losses on their tax returns because in all likelihood most will not be aware that they have to. They'll think "I lost this year" or "I broke even" and will assume that all that matters is the net amount.

Now if internet poker is legal and regulated, it stands to reason that there will be a mechanism for the sites to report wins and losses to the IRS. These players who do not already itemize will either get the bad news from their family accountant or H&R Block, or worse yet, get a letter from Uncle 6-15 months after filing dunning them for un-reported income asking for back taxes, penalities and interest.

When this large pool of marginal players comes to the realization of the tax implications of their hobby, do we really think they'll keep playing?

IMO, legalizing internet poker without revising the tax code will chase away way more fish than the UIGEA.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country

You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

[zaah1]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, legalizing internet poker without revising the tax code will chase away way more fish than the UIGEA.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why there's no sense worry about taxes since the tax code will obviously updated. IMO, it will be like at B&M where only cashouts overs some high threshold will be automatically taxed.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Morality? Yea I should be perfectly willing to hand over my hard earned money and give it to guys like Bill Frist so he can tell me what to do. You guys slay me

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone else has to.

This is a democracy; the government spending plans and the means of collecting taxes for the spending was jointly decided, for better or for worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the history of how income taxes were initially OK'd in the US is not so cut-and-dried. The way they have grown over the past century is a great example of how big government careens out of control simply from its own momentum.

One final comment.

We the People really cannot exert any grassroots control over government simply via the ballot box. The only real way we can control it (and they are our employees, not our masters) is by controlling the funds. Take away the automatic source of revenues collection that is the personal income tax and we regain control of the government.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, legalizing internet poker without revising the tax code will chase away way more fish than the UIGEA.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why there's no sense worry about taxes since the tax code will obviously updated. IMO, it will be like at B&M where only cashouts overs some high threshold will be automatically taxed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only cashouts over a certain threshold are currently reported to the IRS. You are still liable for taxes on the those winnings.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
Points well taken. The "kids" portion of my comment was off-the-cuff and a result of being annoyed. I am 56, BTW.[

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you are old. /images/graemlins/smile.gif In a thread in another forum someone guessed the average age of 2+2 posters at about 23-25 and anyone in their 30s as ancient. IIRC the same poster put ancient in "real life" as over 35 so take that with as many grains of salt as needed. You've got me by a few years, but not many. I'll turn 49 in a few days. Not ancient, IMO, but no longer a kid.

[oldbookguy]

Oh No, I am part of the over 50 group as well.....

I guess we 'older' folks get no credit for being a bit Internet savey?

In jest ofcourse!

obg

[zaah1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, legalizing internet poker without revising the tax code will chase away way more fish than the UIGEA.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why there's no sense worry about taxes since the tax code will obviously updated. IMO, it will be like at B&M where only cashouts overs some high threshold will be automatically taxed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only cashouts over a certain threshold are currently reported to the IRS. You are still liable for taxes on the those winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be shocked if the definition of a "session" online is not changed to the time between withdrawals.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country

You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you leave specifically for tax reasons, actually.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, legalizing internet poker without revising the tax code will chase away way more fish than the UIGEA.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why there's no sense worry about taxes since the tax code will obviously updated. IMO, it will be like at B&M where only cashouts overs some high threshold will be automatically taxed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tax code *obviously* will be updated? Please cite a source for that speculation.

The only reason that B&Ms are treated as they are is the sheer impossibility of tracking all winnings/losses. On an internet site, no such impediment exists and the recording of winning sessions/losing sessions for individual players becomes only a matter of writing x lines of code.

I'd like what you say to be true but have no idea why Uncle would reduce the total amount of immediate tax revenue that would come from legailzation. I mean, tax revenue is one of the biggest arguments for legalization.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the history of how income taxes were initially OK'd in the US is not so cut-and-dried. The way they have grown over the past century is a great example of how big government careens out of control simply from its own momentum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm as libertarian as you. My issue isn't so much the taxes as the spending. Taxes are simply us getting the bill. There are plenty of tax resistors. If we had more spending resistors, we wouldn't be in this mess. Seems plenty of "tax resistors" are having a silent protest, without so much as writing a single complaint letter to their congressman. Seems less than sincere to me.

As for the income tax, the sad fact is that it is Constitutional (authorized by the 18th Amendment). We could try to change it at that level, but the reality is that most Americans support big government spending. The more money they get, the more they spend.

[ QUOTE ]
We the People really cannot exert any grassroots control over government simply via the ballot box. The only real way we can control it (and they are our employees, not our masters) is by controlling the funds. Take away the automatic source of revenues collection that is the personal income tax and we regain control of the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

People have been saying that since the Whiskey Rebellion. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay them. Maybe we should protest by not using government services. I know I'd be happy with a government 1/3 its current size.

It's clearly time for this conversation to move to Politics.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country

You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you leave specifically for tax reasons, actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I decided to look it up. The IRS Website (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html) says that prior to June 2004 you weren't liable for taxes if you renounced your citizenship for other than tax reasons. It appears that this is not the case after that ("Amended IRC 877 eliminates the tax avoidance criteria for imposition of the expatriation tax on certain types of income for 10 years following expatriation"). What this means in real terms (ie "certain types of income") I don't know.

[oldbookguy]

Agreed Engineer, mods?

obg

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country


You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you leave specifically for tax reasons, actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yes, but isn't that the whole point of what you said. If the tax laws became so unfair you'd consider renouncing your citizenship?

Oh I see, you wouldn't tell them WHY you were renouncing your citizenship.

I see, but wouldn't that be lying to the government for the purpose of evading legally imposed taxes?

I not busting your chops here, just pointing out that you too have a threshhold past which you have no moral compunction against violating a law. That's fine. Just be aware that others may have lower threshholds than you.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Posturing for or against taxes aside, the real issue is the punitive way the IRS treats gambling income. Break-even or losing online poker players who do not itemize deductions technically owe taxes on their poker "income."

And if online gambling is legalized and regulated, they'll all get a bill from Uncle for taxes they didn't think they owed.

That's real battle, and everybody (usually kids with little life experience) either ignore that point, or gloss it over with sanctimonious and ignorant "pay your taxes" comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't imagine our best argument would be that we don't wish to pay our taxes because we don't like the tax code. I imagine Harrah's and MGM will lobby for reporting similar to that of B&M casinos. Who knows what will happen, but perhaps the idea that we should resist regulation because we'll have to follow existing law really should be considered a nonstarter, at least IMHO.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country


You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you leave specifically for tax reasons, actually.

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Well, yes, but isn't that the whole point of what you said. If the tax laws became so unfair you'd consider renouncing your citizenship?

Oh I see, you wouldn't tell them WHY you were renouncing your citizenship.

I see, but wouldn't that be lying to the government for the purpose of evading legally imposed taxes?

I not busting your chops here, just pointing out that you too have a threshhold past which you have no moral compunction against violating a law. That's fine. Just be aware that others may have lower threshholds than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd leave because the government has grown well beyond its constitutional constraints. Again, it's the spending that's the problem. Taxes are just us getting the bill for all those bridges to nowhere and income redistribution payments.

[BigAlK]

I know this is a response to The Engineer's post, but since a good portion of it quotes mine I'll respond too.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, but isn't that the whole point of what you said. If the tax laws became so unfair you'd consider renouncing your citizenship?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming that my reason would be tax related. Chances are that it wouldn't be. The most consideration I've given to actually doing this was due to other issues with the current administration (Patriot act, Iraq war, etc).

[ QUOTE ]
I not busting your chops here, just pointing out that you too have a threshhold past which you have no moral compunction against violating a law. That's fine. Just be aware that others may have lower threshholds than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

My past posts were very clear that I understood that. I'm sure The Engineer does as well.

[Unabridged]

[ QUOTE ]


People have been saying that since the Whiskey Rebellion. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay them. Maybe we should protest by not using government services. I know I'd be happy with a government 1/3 its current size.

It's clearly time for this conversation to move to Politics.

[/ QUOTE ]

i volunteer to stop using the DEA, IRS, and the DoD.

i think the fundamental issue is that most of you who advocate "pay the taxes or leave the country" believe this land is owned by the federal government and we just live here. i believe we own the land and the federal goverment is just a group of people we allow to run things until they piss us off.

yeah, this probably should move to politics but then the hardcores will scare most of the average people away and it will degrade into another statist vs anarchist.

[zaah1]

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[ QUOTE ]
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IMO, legalizing internet poker without revising the tax code will chase away way more fish than the UIGEA.

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Which is why there's no sense worry about taxes since the tax code will obviously updated. IMO, it will be like at B&M where only cashouts overs some high threshold will be automatically taxed.

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The tax code *obviously* will be updated? Please cite a source for that speculation.

The only reason that B&Ms are treated as they are is the sheer impossibility of tracking all winnings/losses. On an internet site, no such impediment exists and the recording of winning sessions/losing sessions for individual players becomes only a matter of writing x lines of code.

I'd like what you say to be true but have no idea why Uncle would reduce the total amount of immediate tax revenue that would come from legailzation. I mean, tax revenue is one of the biggest arguments for legalization.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of the people that are excited about tax revenue are excited about tax revenue from the companies. Not income tax from individuals.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


People have been saying that since the Whiskey Rebellion. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay them. Maybe we should protest by not using government services. I know I'd be happy with a government 1/3 its current size.

It's clearly time for this conversation to move to Politics.

[/ QUOTE ]

i volunteer to stop using the DEA, IRS, and the DoD.

i think the fundamental issue is that most of you who advocate "pay the taxes or leave the country" believe this land is owned by the federal government and we just live here. i believe we own the land and the federal goverment is just a group of people we allow to run things until they piss us off.

yeah, this probably should move to politics but then the hardcores will scare most of the average people away and it will degrade into another statist vs anarchist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no statist. I'm as libertarian as anyone here. However, we're not talking about Federal tyranny as much as we're talking about tyranny of the majority. Still tyranny, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of the system. We need to fight for our individual rights on election day.

As for tax protesters, it seems many are "silently protesting" by not paying. Is that really a protest, or is it simply hoping to get away with not paying taxes?

Anyway, every government ever in existence has collected mandatory taxes. I don't think advocating tax resistance on this public board will do us any good.

[driller]

[ QUOTE ]
Look, what you are theoretically discussing, would run into FBAR, money laundering, tax evasion problems, and probably some I haven't thought of yet. I suggest you just get your own account and suffer though the increased inconviences of cashing. If you get caught under your scenario, they would be able to throw the book at you. It is much safer that way.


[/ QUOTE ]

1. I pay taxes on my winnings, as per the tax law. You have to pay taxes whether you withdraw or not. So if I deposit 100,000, lose 50,000, then withdraw the 50,000 I have left, I do not owe taxes on that withdrawal.

2. Reqesting a ck from PS, then cashing it when they send it to me violates no laws.

3. So far, the government does not consider the poker sites "financial institutions", so FBAR does not come in to play.

4. Your post is mostly bs.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


People have been saying that since the Whiskey Rebellion. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay them. Maybe we should protest by not using government services. I know I'd be happy with a government 1/3 its current size.

It's clearly time for this conversation to move to Politics.

[/ QUOTE ]

i volunteer to stop using the DEA, IRS, and the DoD.

i think the fundamental issue is that most of you who advocate "pay the taxes or leave the country" believe this land is owned by the federal government and we just live here. i believe we own the land and the federal goverment is just a group of people we allow to run things until they piss us off.

yeah, this probably should move to politics but then the hardcores will scare most of the average people away and it will degrade into another statist vs anarchist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no statist. I'm as libertarian as anyone here. However, we're not talking about Federal tyranny as much as we're talking about tyranny of the majority. Still tyranny, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of the system. We need to fight for our individual rights on election day.

As for tax protesters, it seems many are "silently protesting" by not paying. Is that really a protest, or is it simply hoping to get away with not paying taxes?

Anyway, every government ever in existence has collected mandatory taxes. I don't think advocating tax resistance on this public board will do us any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

While advocating general tax resistance is futile at best, advocating for tax reform like Fair Tax vs. Personal Income tax is fine, as well as protesting the inequity of how gambling income is taxed.

There's another post here from a guy who has $10K in poker income from $180K in winning sessions and $170K in losing sessions. No reasonable person should accept raising one's AGI by $180K just to report $10K in income.

If we don't a) refuse to comply or b) at least raise some major protest over this, we're not being law-abiding citizens, we're bending over on request.

[Unabridged]

[ QUOTE ]

There's another post here from a guy who has $10K in poker income from $180K in winning sessions and $170K in losing sessions. No reasonable person should accept raising one's AGI by $180K just to report $10K in income.


[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. and this stuff isnt law, its just some jerkoff IRS agent's decision. imagine if they start saying one hand is a session.

[TheEngineer]

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If we don't a) refuse to comply or b) at least raise some major protest over this, we're not being law-abiding citizens, we're bending over on request.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that we should be raising a major protest. I simply question the motives of those who seemingly advocate all big government spending, then skip out on the payment.

Gambling tax laws suck. We should lobby that at the source, I think. The IRS didn't create this; Congress did. This law needs changing.

[oldbookguy]

If I can find the info in my office computer, the IRS was working on some new regulations BEFORE the UIGEA was passed and I believe those were put on hold.

This would have been address and from the drafts I had it appeared they were drafting stuff that would have applied to off shore gaming sites cashing out winning as well.

I think I kept them (I hope).

Bottom line, the rule is an IRS rule not one passed specifically by congress, I think. There have been many tax court cases over this issue.

obg