Why Scotty? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Ace-Ex

07-16-2007, 01:26 PM

Why Scotty? Why?
by: Andrew Feldman
posted: Monday, July 16, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry

I'm in shock. I know I shouldn't be, knowing the playing style of Scotty Nguyen, but I think that what I witnessed for 47 minutes early Monday morning has left me temporarily in a state of confusion. I know it's just poker, but especially in poker, even the improbable can happen. Imagine your favorite team giving up a 10-run lead in the bottom of the ninth in Game 7 of the World Series -- I feel the same way after the most recent action on Day 6.

At 12:24 a.m., Nguyen's chip count was at $17.8 million after winning two big pots against the chip leader at his table.

At 1:11 a.m., Nguyen was eliminated in 11th place.

In between that short amount of time, it seemed that Nguyen was involved in every single pot, and most of them were for at least a couple of million chips. "He wanted to win this tournament tonight," Lee Watkinson said of Nguyen's usually dominant aggression. Unfortunately, that aggression is what essentially ended his improbable run at another main event title and the the poker world's hopes for a repeat champion.

Link to complete article. (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=poker&entryDate=20070716)

Edited by entertainme: Sorry we can't include the full text of copyrighted material in 2p2 posts. Link provided to complete article.

NickyC

07-16-2007, 01:35 PM

I know, I went to bed when he was around $17 million because I knew he had the final table made. I woke up this morning and felt sick.
Over the years I have loved watching this guy play, something draws you to him. I was so excited that he was doing well, and I was really interested in the main event for the first time in a few years. I was all set to buy the PPV and laugh my ass off as Scotty sat there with a huge grin, loads of chips, and empty Michelob bottles all over the place. Unfortunately, I won't be buying the PPV now, and I could really not care less who won now. Nobody in at the FT interests me. BORING.

A couple years ago I remember an interview Scotty gave on a WPT episode, right after he busted out. He told the interviewer something to the effect that he always blows it or something like that. He comes in the leader, and blows it. It was sad to watch because you could see the hurt in his eyes. I think this pill is going to be a lot harder to swallow because of the history involved, but I hope Scotty pulls through.

Jasper109

07-16-2007, 01:41 PM

I think that all of these really great players have a lot of "degenerate gambler" within them along with a certain arrogance. (I feeling that they are better than the other players)

This is what makes them great, but it also leads to inexplicable meltdowns like the one we witnessed last night.

He could have folded to the final table which would have further cemented his legacy, but something inside him just wouldn't allow him to do that.

Or maybe he was just unlucky, and I don't know what I'm talking about.

True North

07-16-2007, 02:14 PM

I was waiting for someone to say this. I went to bed with Scotty between 4-5 million in chips, and when I started reading the hand logs from after I went to bed and got to Scotty's big double up, I was certain he'd be at the final table, probably sitting on the second or third-biggest chip stack.

I was disappointed to read what followed, but after thinking about it, I can't say I was all that surprised. It shouldn't have been all that shocking that he tried to run over the table playing Scotty Nguyen poker, instead of staying away from the big bluff and letting the overmatched amateurs play big pots with him drawing slim or dead (like the nines full hand that doubled him up). It's almost as though he didn't want to make the final table if he couldn't play his style of poker.

montanajo

07-16-2007, 02:22 PM

He wanted to win the tourney today and thought with his stack he can push everyone around.If he made final 10 maybe it would have worked,how tight the others were playing on tv bubble

greg nice

07-16-2007, 02:28 PM

nooooooooooooooooo

True North

07-16-2007, 02:28 PM

But being bullied off hands is not how people have been eliminating themselves this entire tournament. For every big fold to a bluff, there have been about ten horrendous calls for huge amounts of chips. I don't think there was much to gain by trying to run the table over at that point as opposed to playing tighter, given how much people have been overvaluing their hands the entire way.

Austiger

07-16-2007, 02:30 PM

Respectfully, the AQ hand was not "trying to push everyone around." It was donking off a stack. No better hand folds and no worse hand calls.

As sick as I feel about Scotty missing the FT, I can only imagine how it would feel if I were the one who missed it. As they say, it's a "hard way to make an easy living."

pknight212

07-16-2007, 02:33 PM

scotty didnt play to make the final table, he was playing to win. Gotta give him props for having the cajones to play the way he did once he got the chips.

I went to bed before he started his big rush, which I'm kind of glad about now, because I wouldve been all the more devasted when I woke up and found that he was eliminated.

As disappointing as it is, 11th place isnt bad in this minefield. Major props to all the bigname pros who've managed to go deep in the past couple years.

Jasper109

07-16-2007, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Respectfully, the AQ hand was not "trying to push everyone around." It was donking off a stack. No better hand folds and no worse hand calls.

As sick as I feel about Scotty missing the FT, I can only imagine how it would feel if I were the one who missed it. As they say, it's a "hard way to make an easy living."

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd figure that a top pro wouldn't donk off most of his stack with TPTK. Hard to explain.

NickyC

07-16-2007, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Respectfully, the AQ hand was not "trying to push everyone around." It was donking off a stack. No better hand folds and no worse hand calls.

As sick as I feel about Scotty missing the FT, I can only imagine how it would feel if I were the one who missed it. As they say, it's a "hard way to make an easy living."

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd figure that a top pro wouldn't donk off most of his stack with TPTK. Hard to explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be a jerk here, but he didn't even have TPTK. He shoved after the King hit. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

gumpzilla

07-16-2007, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You'd figure that a top pro wouldn't donk off most of his stack with TPTK. Hard to explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was second pair when the money went in, if the action reported above is accurate. Probably pretty bad, but given the kinds of hands people were showing down for most of the night I could imagine situations where it isn't completely abhorrent.

I think the fetishization of the "top pros" is kind of humorous. People are complaining about all the no names at the final table, but of course the only reason these other people are famous is because they were no names that once made a final table as well. Scotty seems like an interesting personality, and so him missing the final table is bad in that regard. But I'm not certain how much there is to suggest that his poker skills are vastly superior to those around him.

Jasper109

07-16-2007, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Respectfully, the AQ hand was not "trying to push everyone around." It was donking off a stack. No better hand folds and no worse hand calls.

As sick as I feel about Scotty missing the FT, I can only imagine how it would feel if I were the one who missed it. As they say, it's a "hard way to make an easy living."

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd figure that a top pro wouldn't donk off most of his stack with TPTK. Hard to explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be a jerk here, but he didn't even have TPTK. He shoved after the King hit. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right.

Bill Murphy

07-16-2007, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
scotty didnt play to make the final table, he was playing to win. Gotta give him props for having the cajones to play the way he did once he got the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scotty HAD it won when he was at 17.8 million. He had "played to win" by tripling up after the dinner break. Screwing around w/43s in the blinds against this lineup is inexcusable.

But, it's also what makes him Scotty. I'm sure the crowd got to him a bit. I'm also sure he won't be down long, although he has to know he let a golden opportunity slip away. God Bless him; he's a great guy & player, and 11th is a great run.

FBP

07-16-2007, 03:05 PM

I wasn't there, but i suspect the play on the FT bubble was getting nitty and he thought he could build his stack during that time to be in better shape going into the FT. This is usually a good idea and he can't be faulted for playing to win.

Still, although he was unlucky to be faced with so many monster in so few time, It looks like he played pretty bad postflop. Seriously, whats with those tiny 1/5th pot bet postflop with 4high no draw??

sixsixtie

07-16-2007, 03:06 PM

was he drinking?

Ace-Ex

07-16-2007, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You'd figure that a top pro wouldn't donk off most of his stack with TPTK. Hard to explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was second pair when the money went in, if the action reported above is accurate. Probably pretty bad, but given the kinds of hands people were showing down for most of the night I could imagine situations where it isn't completely abhorrent.

I think the fetishization of the "top pros" is kind of humorous. People are complaining about all the no names at the final table, but of course the only reason these other people are famous is because they were no names that once made a final table as well. Scotty seems like an interesting personality, and so him missing the final table is bad in that regard. But I'm not certain how much there is to suggest that his poker skills are vastly superior to those around him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not "vastly superior", but have you noticed how many WPT final tables he's been at? On the other hand, he seems to have a lot of trouble when the game is short and the blinds get big. He's had a tough time winning at FT's.

Jooka

07-16-2007, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
was he drinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what Ive been wondering as well. Seems like every WPT final table Ive seen him at he's been pretty well lit up on the booze, which clearly effects his play.

Jasper109

07-16-2007, 03:13 PM

Jasper109

07-16-2007, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You'd figure that a top pro wouldn't donk off most of his stack with TPTK. Hard to explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was second pair when the money went in, if the action reported above is accurate. Probably pretty bad, but given the kinds of hands people were showing down for most of the night I could imagine situations where it isn't completely abhorrent.

I think the fetishization of the "top pros" is kind of humorous. People are complaining about all the no names at the final table, but of course the only reason these other people are famous is because they were no names that once made a final table as well. Scotty seems like an interesting personality, and so him missing the final table is bad in that regard. But I'm not certain how much there is to suggest that his poker skills are vastly superior to those around him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not "vastly superior", but have you noticed how many WPT final tables he's been at? On the other hand, he seems to have a lot of trouble when the game is short and the blinds get big. He's had a tough time winning at FT's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the blinds get that big it's mostly about luck and not poker skill.
I think his overall results on the WPT are very good.

CrazyLond

07-16-2007, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Once the blinds get that big it's mostly about luck and not poker skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Skill still plays a big factor in EV. The difference is that some skills, such as understanding stack sizes and the gap concept, become more important and others, such as the ability to read people, become less important.

Jasper109

07-16-2007, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Once the blinds get that big it's mostly about luck and not poker skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Skill still plays a big factor in EV. The difference is that some skills, such as understanding stack sizes and the gap concept, become more important and others, such as the ability to read people, become less important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that, but once the blinds are that high it's 80% about catching cards.
The average M at WPT final tables over the years is much lower than what we'll have tomorrow.

DonJ

07-16-2007, 06:41 PM

Watch his exit interview (http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/video-gallery/) on Pokernews. Scotty tells it like it is. He donked off his stack. He looks absolutely devastated because he knows he blew up. Hard pill to swallow to go out the way he did.

zerocarb

07-16-2007, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I went to bed before he started his big rush, which I'm kind of glad about now, because I would've been all the more devastated when I woke up and found that he was eliminated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. Heartbreaker.

The B

07-16-2007, 07:17 PM

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=1#Post11220285 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11220285&an=0&page=1#Pos t11220285)

imsobroke

07-16-2007, 07:31 PM

I recall something similar in 05 when Ivey donked off a bunch of his chips with 20 or so left, trying to bully the table.

gisb0rne

07-16-2007, 07:42 PM

Is it donking off chips when you try and bully the table and the table catches cards or won't be bullied? If the players hadn't made these calls then we'd be singing a different tune about how great Scotty played.

Dranoel

07-16-2007, 07:43 PM

When I read the postings as he busted out- my first reaction was fist pounding into table yelling [censored]!

I was so hoping for him to reach the final table.

DJSHAD0W

07-16-2007, 08:02 PM

REBUY BABY !!!

jogsxyz

07-16-2007, 08:32 PM

Scotty won two huge pots to get the chips. He was playing the same high risk style when he lost them back. When the cards are with you, you're a genius. When the cards go against you, you're a donk.

cbloom

07-16-2007, 10:11 PM

This is a tragedy for the TV viewers /images/graemlins/frown.gif

LocustHorde

07-17-2007, 12:07 AM

I guess he gets to go home and play with his pet monkeys now

pineapple888

07-17-2007, 12:32 AM

A few thoughts:

1.) We knew more than Scotty did. The calling station tendencies of this field were overwhelmingly clear to anyone sweating the coverage. It's hard to believe he had the same sense of where his opponents were.

2.) It's much harder than most people think to play a big stack well. There's a fine line between pwnage and spewage.

3.) It's really really really hard to play top-notch poker all the way through to the end of a deep-stack MTT. You have to be able to play every style and shift gears at just the right time, and you need final table/STT skills when you get deep.

4.) Why, Scotty, why??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Chump Change

07-17-2007, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
4.) Why, Scotty, why???

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the main reason I stopped watching and caring about sports. I hated that feeling of being emotionally invested in a stranger's success and watching them not succeed. The distraught that comes with is not severe, but it is real and very much unlike any other form of frustration.

suzzer99

07-17-2007, 02:13 AM

Yeah but then you get something like LeBron going nuts in the playoffs, or the Federer/Nadal Wimbledon final, and you remember why you watch sports.

shaniac

07-17-2007, 02:59 AM

Scotty is easily in the top tier of tournament players, and I think he's known more for being able to play different gears rather than always being "dominant agressive." I've seen Scotty play VERY snug in late-tournament situations much less crucial than this.

So, Why Scotty Why? He's human, he made mistakes, and maybe he did have a couple too many drinks, maybe he got tired, didn't adjust to his newfound stack, or whatever. It was and a disappointing, probably avoidable demise, but good run, baby!

shaniac

07-17-2007, 03:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]

4.) Why, Scotty, why??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Scotty is easily in the top tier of tournament players, and I think he's known more for being able to play different gears rather than always being "dominant aggressive." I've seen Scotty play VERY snug in late-tournament situations much less crucial than this.

So, Why Scotty Why? He's human, he made mistakes, and maybe he did have a couple too many drinks, maybe he got tired, didn't adjust to his newfound stack, or whatever. It was a disappointing, probably avoidable demise, but good run, baby!

Exitonly

07-17-2007, 03:07 AM

his exit interview made me like him aprox 100x more.

shame he busto'd. i'll be cheering in the future

07-17-2007, 04:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Scotty is easily in the top tier of tournament players, and I think he's known more for being able to play different gears rather than always being "dominant agressive." I've seen Scotty play VERY snug in late-tournament situations much less crucial than this.

So, Why Scotty Why? He's human, he made mistakes, and maybe he did have a couple too many drinks, maybe he got tired, didn't adjust to his newfound stack, or whatever. It was and a disappointing, probably avoidable demise, but good run, baby!

[/ QUOTE ]

You can say that again.

ApeAttack

07-17-2007, 04:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]

1.) We knew more than Scotty did. The calling station tendencies of this field were overwhelmingly clear to anyone sweating the coverage. It's hard to believe he had the same sense of where his opponents were.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did we know more? Wouldn't Scotty, who was actually there, know much more about the opponents tendencies than us?

ApeAttack

07-17-2007, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]

So, Why Scotty Why? He's human, he made mistakes, and maybe he did have a couple too many drinks, maybe he got tired, didn't adjust to his newfound stack, or whatever. It was a disappointing, probably avoidable demise, but good run, baby!

[/ QUOTE ]

youcanhaveitall

07-17-2007, 04:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
his exit interview made me like him aprox 100x more.

shame he busto'd. i'll be cheering in the future

[/ QUOTE ]

Link?

okterrific

07-17-2007, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
his exit interview made me like him aprox 100x more.

shame he busto'd. i'll be cheering in the future

[/ QUOTE ]

Link?

[/ QUOTE ]

from pokernews.com

day 6 Scotty Nguyen Eliminated in 11th place
http://www.pokernews.com (http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/video-gallery/)

Chomp

07-17-2007, 05:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
his exit interview made me like him aprox 100x more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, totally agree. I'd never seen him speak before and couldn't really understand why he was quite so popular. But after the PN clip it's very clear why people were rooting for him. Very charming and appealing personality.

W brad

07-17-2007, 07:55 AM

This interview of Kevin Kim is funny, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE5T471gICA) about his reads in his big hand against Scotty.

pineapple888

07-17-2007, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1.) We knew more than Scotty did. The calling station tendencies of this field were overwhelmingly clear to anyone sweating the coverage. It's hard to believe he had the same sense of where his opponents were.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did we know more? Wouldn't Scotty, who was actually there, know much more about the opponents tendencies than us?

[/ QUOTE ]

He couldn't see all the players on all the tables. You are correct, though, that if the table he busted out on had been stable for much of the day, then my point would not be valid.

pineapple888

07-17-2007, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This interview of Kevin Kim is funny, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE5T471gICA) about his reads in his big hand against Scotty.

[/ QUOTE ]

ZOMG that was by far the longest explanation I've ever heard for a read. A highly specific read, at that. Funny that he was completely wrong all the way through.

Ace-Ex

07-17-2007, 11:57 AM

I NEVER thought he would limp in with 87 of spades. Is this an unconventional play somehow?

NickyC

07-17-2007, 12:03 PM

Like I posted earlier, I love watching Scotty play. He's probably my favorite pro to watch. I was basically crushed when I woke up and found out he had busted, when I went to bed he had 17 million.

Looking back on it, I honestly think the crowd got to him. He was basically nursing a short stack for so long, that when he got rollin and the crowd got behind him, he started taking chances he normally would not take because the adrenlin was flowing. We've all been there before. Who hasn't put in 6 hours at a poker table, just pushing the money back and forth, and all of a sudden you go on a huge rush. You start playing hands you normally wouldn't, you start trying to push people around at the wrong time. Now factor in the crowd who is basically exploding every time you win a pot. The people love you, you want to show the love back, you want to win for them.
Now, I've ever never had anyone cheer for me at a poker table, but I've been on insane rushes before. I was also a star basketball player in a big 5A school, so I know what that crowd can do for you when you hit a big 3 to take the lead with 10 seconds to go. Combine the card rush with the crowd, and I can easily see why Scotty went insane.

Problem is, he has done this before and knew it. Anybody who has seen him interviewed after busting from WPT final tables has seen this interview before. It's a damned shame somebody in his corner didn't pull him aside and tell him to cool off, you've got the final table made, just cool off.
Whether he would have heeded this advice is questionable, but I think he needs somebody in his corner to let him know when to back off a bit.

In the end however, the guy won almost $500k for 6 days worth of work. So it's not like it was all in vain.

ibluffoldladies

07-17-2007, 12:10 PM

nice post NickyC, good form. Post more often

NickyC

07-17-2007, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nice post NickyC, good form. Post more often

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you sir. I don't think I have much to contribute here compared to other people posting here much smarter than I, but I'm happy you liked my post. Take care.

Jasper109

07-17-2007, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nice post NickyC, good form. Post more often

[/ QUOTE ]

Zetack

07-17-2007, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Like I posted earlier, I love watching Scotty play. He's probably my favorite pro to watch. I was basically crushed when I woke up and found out he had busted, when I went to bed he had 17 million.

Looking back on it, I honestly think the crowd got to him. He was basically nursing a short stack for so long, that when he got rollin and the crowd got behind him, he started taking chances he normally would not take because the adrenlin was flowing. We've all been there before. Who hasn't put in 6 hours at a poker table, just pushing the money back and forth, and all of a sudden you go on a huge rush. You start playing hands you normally wouldn't, you start trying to push people around at the wrong time. Now factor in the crowd who is basically exploding every time you win a pot. The people love you, you want to show the love back, you want to win for them.
Now, I've ever never had anyone cheer for me at a poker table, but I've been on insane rushes before. I was also a star basketball player in a big 5A school, so I know what that crowd can do for you when you hit a big 3 to take the lead with 10 seconds to go. Combine the card rush with the crowd, and I can easily see why Scotty went insane.

Problem is, he has done this before and knew it. Anybody who has seen him interviewed after busting from WPT final tables has seen this interview before. It's a damned shame somebody in his corner didn't pull him aside and tell him to cool off, you've got the final table made, just cool off.
Whether he would have heeded this advice is questionable, but I think he needs somebody in his corner to let him know when to back off a bit.

In the end however, the guy won almost $500k for 6 days worth of work. So it's not like it was all in vain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its also something of a function of the way he plays. Scotty is very agressive and completely willing to take risks and make sick bluffs. To be as successful at that as he has been requires phenomenal skill..great post flop play, and great people skills. He's got to be very adept at reading people, picking spots, sensing weakness, factoring in stack sizes...

Hand a player like that a large stack and they start to salivate..."Now I can really play my stlye!" But if they aren't careful they lose that sharp focus and where, with more moderate stacks, they were slicing up their oppponents with scapel like precision, now they try to bludgeon them into submission with their large stack.

I think its common for very good, very aggressive players to have problems adjusting to a very large stack late in tournaments, they lose a little of the judedgement that they had to use on every decision when their stack was smaller.

Cliff notes version: Agressive, bluffing players must spend a lot of attention on trying to pick the right spots for their aggesssion. When they get a big stack, they aren't as selective, tend to want to move from agressive to bully, and increase the possibility of a blow up.

jhans24

07-17-2007, 01:06 PM

His exit interview was painful to watch. You could feel his pain. gg

BenTurpen

07-17-2007, 01:42 PM

Scotty has talked in the past about the crowd effecting his play.

disjunction

07-17-2007, 01:50 PM

I don't quite understand the AQ hand and why it was so "terrible", but I'm trying to. Assuming he cares about first place only:

(1) Would it have been been correct for him to lose his stack (something like 40x blinds and antes) with a pair of queens in a blind battle if the turn had been a blank?

(2) What additional hands does the king put into play, and is that enough to affect things?

Bill Murphy

07-17-2007, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's a damned shame somebody in his corner didn't pull him aside and tell him to cool off, you've got the final table made, just cool off.
Whether he would have heeded this advice is questionable, but I think he needs somebody in his corner to let him know when to back off a bit.

In the end however, the guy won almost $500k for 6 days worth of work. So it's not like it was all in vain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if Matusow went back there after the WPT FT that night, or if Men & Tony Ma were sweating Scotty.

But, like you say, Scotty is Scotty, and he's been there a zilzjilskdillion times before. He's gonna play his way, although he defo could've stood to have taken a 10 minute smoke break at some point.

IMO, the only really donk play he made was micro betting the flop on the 43 hand. 700K into a 3mil pot /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I think he well may have meant to bet more & the chip colors got to him or he got distracted some how.

The AQ-55 BvB thing was just a cooler 5-6 handed.

I don't think anyone questions that it was a great run, & that Scotty's a class act, wonderful to watch on TV or from the rail, and has had consistently good tourney results for at least 15 years now.

RiverPlay

07-17-2007, 02:15 PM

I was with Scotty baby, now I don't care bout the series anymore baby, so sad baby... He will make something big soon baby, so that he's able to forget about this and celebrate baby!

pineapple888

07-17-2007, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't quite understand the AQ hand and why it was so "terrible", but I'm trying to. Assuming he cares about first place only:

(1) Would it have been been correct for him to lose his stack (something like 40x blinds and antes) with a pair of queens in a blind battle if the turn had been a blank?

(2) What additional hands does the king put into play, and is that enough to affect things?

[/ QUOTE ]

1.) Why would he only care about first place?

2.) It wasn't a blank turn, so that's irrelevant.

3.) As played, the turn c/r is simply a bad play. Better hands will call, worse hands will fold, on a board with few realistic draws. He should c/c, play for showdown, then when Villain pushes the river (which he will in this case) he has a decision to make. We can only hope he would have gotten away from the hand, but who knows, maybe it didn't matter.

pineapple888

07-17-2007, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

IMO, the only really donk play he made was micro betting the flop on the 43 hand. 700K into a 3mil pot /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, the entire 43s hand is pretty shaky. Bloat preflop when folding was perfectly fine, donkbet flop, give great odds to Villain with river bluff.

hoyasnaxa

07-17-2007, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
his exit interview made me like him aprox 100x more.

shame he busto'd. i'll be cheering in the future

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, he seems like a nice guy and is still the same guy, "I blew it baby." gotta love him.

LonesomeFugitive

07-17-2007, 02:51 PM

This is what happens when you put so much alcohol in your system. Would the same have happened if Scotty had a clear mind and not have had 12 micholob lights the day before?? (estimating amount of drinks he had of course)

disjunction

07-17-2007, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]

2.) It wasn't a blank turn, so that's irrelevant.

3.) As played, the turn c/r is simply a bad play. Better hands will call, worse hands will fold, on a board with few realistic draws. He should c/c, play for showdown, then when Villain pushes the river (which he will in this case) he has a decision to make. We can only hope he would have gotten away from the hand, but who knows, maybe it didn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the point is the turn didn't change much, besides putting KQ into play. If you want to say that the villian can have other hands with a King, then logically his range is large and checkraising would have been clearly profitable (although not as profitable as c/c). So to call Scotty's play a gaffe, you must conclude the King changed little.

Now we have the decision to c/r instead of c/c. I think that you're right on this, but maybe it's not a huge mistake. Yes, he won't fold a better hand. But he prevents a draw to a 2-outer FWIW, and a better hand is getting most of that money in regardless, no?

pineapple888

07-17-2007, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2.) It wasn't a blank turn, so that's irrelevant.

3.) As played, the turn c/r is simply a bad play. Better hands will call, worse hands will fold, on a board with few realistic draws. He should c/c, play for showdown, then when Villain pushes the river (which he will in this case) he has a decision to make. We can only hope he would have gotten away from the hand, but who knows, maybe it didn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the point is the turn didn't change much, besides putting KQ into play. If you want to say that the villian can have other hands with a King, then logically his range is large and checkraising would have been clearly profitable (although not as profitable as c/c). So to call Scotty's play a gaffe, you must conclude the King changed little.

Now we have the decision to c/r instead of c/c. I think that you're right on this, but maybe it's not a huge mistake. Yes, he won't fold a better hand. But he prevents a draw to a 2-outer FWIW, and a better hand is getting most of that money in regardless, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

The King could have hit Scotty, for all his opponent knows. If Villain continues to play fast, betting the turn and river, that's important information for Scotty that Villain isn't overly concerned about the K and Q on the board.

disjunction

07-17-2007, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2.) It wasn't a blank turn, so that's irrelevant.

3.) As played, the turn c/r is simply a bad play. Better hands will call, worse hands will fold, on a board with few realistic draws. He should c/c, play for showdown, then when Villain pushes the river (which he will in this case) he has a decision to make. We can only hope he would have gotten away from the hand, but who knows, maybe it didn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the point is the turn didn't change much, besides putting KQ into play. If you want to say that the villian can have other hands with a King, then logically his range is large and checkraising would have been clearly profitable (although not as profitable as c/c). So to call Scotty's play a gaffe, you must conclude the King changed little.

Now we have the decision to c/r instead of c/c. I think that you're right on this, but maybe it's not a huge mistake. Yes, he won't fold a better hand. But he prevents a draw to a 2-outer FWIW, and a better hand is getting most of that money in regardless, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

The King could have hit Scotty, for all his opponent knows. If Villain continues to play fast, betting the turn and river, that's important information for Scotty that Villain isn't overly concerned about the K and Q on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what this means. Are you saying with this important information he could find a fold? But then something is wrong because villain can duplicate this strategy with any two and bluff his way to fame and fortune.

Ugh, never mind, he has to count the scary turn cards on the flop.

Anyway, thanks for the insight. Tournaments make my head spin, I'll stick with min-bet.